Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: A thought on cyberware
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Inpu
A lot of people are unhappy with how Street Samurai end up with a perceived short end of the stick when compared to Adepts and are thought to be especially easy prey for Magicians. Of course, there are many ways to defend against magic, chief among them having a Magician of your own but also possibly looking at Qualities that make it easier to resist magic.

Going by the flavor text, cyberware appears as dead spots on a person's aura and this often seems to disturb mages as mentioned in Ghost Cartels in particular a number of times. A person is made more an object over time rather than a person.

What I'm getting at is if a Street Sammy is more toaster than person, could not a GM rule that object resistance or spell dice modifiers come into play in addition to the basic Will/Body roll? It seems like an interesting option.

Thoughts?
Lansdren
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 4 2010, 12:14 PM) *
A lot of people are unhappy with how Street Samurai end up with a perceived short end of the stick when compared to Adepts and are thought to be especially easy prey for Magicians. Of course, there are many ways to defend against magic, chief among them having a Magician of your own but also possibly looking at Qualities that make it easier to resist magic.

Going by the flavor text, cyberware appears as dead spots on a person's aura and this often seems to disturb mages as mentioned in Ghost Cartels in particular a number of times. A person is made more an object over time rather than a person.

What I'm getting at is if a Street Sammy is more toaster than person, could not a GM rule that object resistance or spell dice modifiers come into play in addition to the basic Will/Body roll? It seems like an interesting option.

Thoughts?



Its a tricky one, are we talking a extra die or two per point of essance loss which for the most part isnt much, I would say if your doing something like that you should also be running with the optional rule that makes healing them with magic harder too.
Inpu
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 4 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Its a tricky one, are we talking a extra die or two per point of essance loss which for the most part isnt much, I would say if your doing something like that you should also be running with the optional rule that makes healing them with magic harder too.


Pretty much my point: it seems healing them is more difficult by SR4 core, so it stood to reason other spells would have issues as well.

It wouldn't be much, but it is certainly more than they had before. It might take some tweaking, but every die counts in magic resistance checks.
Ascalaphus
Quick! Quick! Add some more metal rods to him, so he'll be more magic resistant!

It's an interesting idea though.
Simon Kerimov
There is the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait that I could see becoming geneware or bioware.
Inpu
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 4 2010, 01:31 PM) *
Quick! Quick! Add some more metal rods to him, so he'll be more magic resistant!

It's an interesting idea though.


There are so many downsides to having cyberware, such as becoming a social pariah, always setting off the alarm systems, so forth that it just seemed like it might also have a benefit attached. It also would prevent overly abusing Cyberware for adepts or magicians, since it may make it more difficult to use any sort of magic on themselves (though they should be using Bioware anyways).
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 4 2010, 01:14 PM) *
A lot of people are unhappy with how Street Samurai end up with a perceived short end of the stick when compared to Adepts and are thought to be especially easy prey for Magicians.


I'm wondering if these "unhappy people" ever read the rules. Mages are far less powerfull than some people think. Don't forget that spellcasting hits (not net hits!) are limited to the spell's force. And if the mage gains no net hits at all the spell simply fails. Most mages won't have much more than 8 to 12 dice and a magic attribute above 5. One can't blame the rules for min-maxed powergaming builds.
Inpu
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Aug 4 2010, 03:15 PM) *
I'm wondering if these "unhappy people" ever read the rules. Mages are far less powerfull than some people think. Don't forget that spellcasting hits (not net hits!) are limited to the spell's force. And if the mage gains no net hits at all the spell simply fails. Most mages won't have much more than 8 to 12 dice and a magic attribute above 5. One can't blame the rules for min-maxed powergaming builds.


I personally agree, as seen in previous statements I made in other threads. I don't see magic as particularly unfair, since a team can come prepared for it. However, I do think it would be fair (or, rather, worth considering) for highly cybered individuals to have a sort of resistance based off of the flavor and rules regarding objects.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 4 2010, 03:19 PM) *
I personally agree, as seen in previous statements I made in other threads. I don't see magic as particularly unfair, since a team can come prepared for it. However, I do think it would be fair (or, rather, worth considering) for highly cybered individuals to have a sort of resistance based off of the flavor and rules regarding objects.


There is such a rule. It's called cybermancy. biggrin.gif wink.gif
Inpu
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Aug 4 2010, 03:31 PM) *
There is such a rule. It's called cybermancy. biggrin.gif wink.gif


I meant for a basic Sammy, not a background generating walking atrocity. nyahnyah.gif (Though that almost fits most Sammies in the long run, come to think of it)
JurneeJakes
Whereas Adepts and Sammies fill the same roles (typically) in a team, mages and sammies are completely different leagues and I see no reason why they should be balanced. It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him. Those are the street sam's options.
Irion
It is worth considering for direct combat spells, metal manipulations and may be illusions.

Indirect combat spells should remain uneffected.
This kind of defance should give 1 dice or less per point of essence lost.
Everything above that would render magic close to uselsee. (Close to everyone has one poin of Cyber and close to everywhere there is a backgroundcount of 1 and nearly in every given Situation there is bad visiual. So you easy get to lose 2 dices or more and the one defending gets one.

Considering the rather small pool for spellcasting (foci are not so helpfull if dealing with BC) this seems to be good enough.
But at the same time I would nerf counterspelling a bit. On self no Problem, but on others just half or something.

Lets get an avarage street sam and an average mage to start killing each other. Lets just take the ones out of the core book.

The combatmage has a dicepool of 10 and a magic of 5.

The sam has 3 to 4 points of essence lost and a willpower of 3.

Let get to the streets with dim lights in the sprawls:
Our mage drops down to 8 dices (BC 1 and light)
Or sam has about 6 to 7dices to resist.
Well, it looks equal.
But if you go to the sam shooting the mage it comes down to: 15/4(7). (shooting/evading(full) same surrounding)
You can do it, but mages would have to reconsidere their role. Which is not a bad thing.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Aug 4 2010, 03:37 PM) *
It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him. Those are the street sam's options.


Use your cyber-radar and shoot him with your Ares Alpha thru the wall.
Inpu
Yes, that is why this is from a flavor perspective. I just think if a person is more object than person, they might get special resistance modifiers, as with most other GM modifiers in other situations. If a Mage wants to smash a Street Sam, it doesn't take too much. Same in reverse, with a good head on the shoulders or good team.

Balance is not the biggest concern: everyone had the opportunity to take mage qualities/magic resistant qualities in character creation, and so it is balanced just fine.

Looks pretty good Irion.
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Aug 4 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Whereas Adepts and Sammies fill the same roles (typically) in a team, mages and sammies are completely different leagues and I see no reason why they should be balanced. It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him. Those are the street sam's options.


So it's perfectly acceptable that mages are that much more powerful than street sammies? Honestly you could use that argument about any character archetype.

QUOTE (Simon Kerimov)
There is the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait that I could see becoming geneware or bioware.


That wouldn't work, as it's a magical metagenic trait, similar to Glamour or Nasty vibe.

My biggest gripe is with manifesting spirits and mages. The can cast spells, use abilities, and there is simply no way for mundanes to hurt them.

Now, a question:

Refined reagents are active on the astral plane. Does that mean that theoretically you can hit spirits by throwing a wood reagent at it? Also see: Biofiber Hardliners.
Laodicea
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 4 2010, 08:09 AM) *
My biggest gripe is with manifesting spirits and mages. The can cast spells, use abilities, and there is simply no way for mundanes to hurt them.


Not true. Manifesting spirits and mages can only target that which is astrally active. Materializing Spirits can target things that are not astrally active. Mages can't materialize. A materialized spirit is vulnerable to physical attacks, but they do have immunity to normal weapons.
Yerameyahu
Johnny B. Good, are there actually rules for 'magical metagenic traits'? I thought it was a vague GM house-rule. I mean, I agree, but it's nice to be consistent.
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Aug 4 2010, 03:25 PM) *
Not true. Manifesting spirits and mages can only target that which is astrally active. Materializing Spirits can target things that are not astrally active. Mages can't materialize. A materialized spirit is vulnerable to physical attacks, but they do have immunity to normal weapons.


Didn't know that. Can I get a page number?
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 4 2010, 03:28 PM) *
Johnny B. Good, are there actually rules for 'magical metagenic traits'? I thought it was a vague GM house-rule. I mean, I agree, but it's nice to be consistent.


No there are not actually rules on this, but it falls under the umbrella of Common Sense. Geneware/bioware can't mimic or duplicate any effects of magic because magic is more than just genes, it's genes + astral gene shadows which SR science hasn't figured out yet. Astral Hazing directly interacts with magic, meaning that it is a magical SURGE trait and can't be duplicated by geneware. Glamour and Nasty Vibe are the same way.

It's sort of like trying to give somebody Dual Natured through geneware. It just doesn't work.
Yerameyahu
That's what I thought. smile.gif You don't have to convince me, I'm just pointing out that you were describing a house rule.
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 4 2010, 03:51 PM) *
That's what I thought. smile.gif You don't have to convince me, I'm just pointing out that you were describing a house rule.

Yup. You'd also have to houserule having them too grinbig.gif
Yerameyahu
Well, you'd have to GM-approve having them. The *rules* for ware-izing metagenic traits already are in the book (btw, Arcane Arrester would cost through the nose anyway, right?).
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 4 2010, 04:34 PM) *
Didn't know that. Can I get a page number?
What spirits get: SR4A p. 186
Manifesting SR4A p.193
Materialization SR4A p. 296
Kruger
QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Aug 4 2010, 05:37 AM) *
It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him.
That statement can be reversed so easily. Why shouldn't the mage be worried about the street samurai and have to be smart and imaginative?

In the older versions of the game, in fact that was often the case.

In any case other than where there's a balance and every player type has to play smart, you're no longer playing a good roleplaying game. This isn't called Magic: The Asskicking. It's Shadowrun.
Ascalaphus
Sure, one failed initiative roll and that mage could a red smear on the pavement.
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 4 2010, 06:38 PM) *
Sure, one failed initiative roll and that mage could a red smear on the pavement.


Same goes for the sammie, chummer.
Yerameyahu
I think that's the point.
Inpu
Mind that when I suggested this, I was specifically thinking of Cyberware. Bioware, while it eats essence, might be sufficiently alive. What do others think?
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 4 2010, 05:53 PM) *
Mind that when I suggested this, I was specifically thinking of Cyberware. Bioware, while it eats essence, might be sufficiently alive. What do others think?


It's sufficiently alive, and is repaired by the body's own cells, so it seems fair game.

But I'm hesitant to give bioadepts any more incentive.
Inpu
Well, the incentive is already there. Nothing changes that.
Johnny B. Good
Yes, but this means that in addition to being crazy dicepool stackers, the would have the added benefit of not being affected by essence-loss related healing. Given they already don't have a whole lot of essence loss to begin with, but I'm hesitant to make them any better still.
sabs
All you have to do is double the essence loss to magic ratio.

For every .5 essence lost, 1 point of magic is permanently lost.

Change Essence Drain ability to Magic Drain ability, with the added "if magic is 0, then the ability causes essence loss instead"

Now there's even less incentive to be a bioadept/mage
Inpu
Or you can rule that healing does still cause some problems, but other spells that deal less directly with the knitting of biology do not. Pretty easy, really. Still, if that is the cost, then it is something to consider if one implements such a rule. If it is a modifier, then that means it can be judged based on the case in question.

Plus, Bioware is pretty expensive. Not the best way to stop someone, but they did pay for that benefit. No reason to gyp them.
Saint Sithney
The problem here is that the cyber isn't the spell's target in a Direct spell.
A mage Stunbolts the Sammy's central nervous system, not his Wires.

Healing difficulties might have something to do with the fact that the damage sustained might have been cybernetic as well as biological. Therefore the Sammy has to heal that cyber damage by sleeping and letting it miraculously regenerat- you know what.... I'm going to just think about unicorns every time that healing comes up in SR. It is clearly bonkers.
Badmoodguy88
Mages have a trade off of being able to do more damage over a lesser period of time. People say combat tends to last one or two rounds so this limitation does not come into play for most people.
Inpu
Kind of depends how you view it, really: the physical and stun fields simulate damage to the body and mind. They don't specify limbs or certain organs, so they don't specifically adjust for cyber/bioware. A GM has to decide if something beyond the body is damaged based off of common sense and, notably, glitches on dodge rolls.

There are rules to fix cyberware, so it stands to reason that they do not regenerate unless they are bioware, which heals with the body.

Likewise, while Stunbolt goes after the nervous system, a Mage does not have line of sight to the nervous system and so channels the magic through the person's body. One could argue that object resistance comes in there: or, if you prefer in your game, you can make specific spells (most mana spells) not be deterred by any form of wares should the option be used.

Honestly, heal might technically work on objects if it passed object resistance, but I think most GMs prefer to keep it simple. It would be kind of silly to have a Mage be a mechanic by healing cars.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 6 2010, 08:42 AM) *
Kind of depends how you view it, really: the physical and stun fields simulate damage to the body and mind. They don't specify limbs or certain organs, so they don't specifically adjust for cyber/bioware. A GM has to decide if something beyond the body is damaged based off of common sense and, notably, glitches on dodge rolls.

There are rules to fix cyberware, so it stands to reason that they do not regenerate unless they are bioware, which heals with the body.

Likewise, while Stunbolt goes after the nervous system, a Mage does not have line of sight to the nervous system and so channels the magic through the person's body. One could argue that object resistance comes in there: or, if you prefer in your game, you can make specific spells (most mana spells) not be deterred by any form of wares should the option be used.

Honestly, heal might technically work on objects if it passed object resistance, but I think most GMs prefer to keep it simple. It would be kind of silly to have a Mage be a mechanic by healing cars.



There is already a fix spell


Inpu
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Aug 6 2010, 09:45 AM) *
There is already a fix spell


Which is kind of my point on Heal not covering that area and stun and physical bars tracking a different field.
Irion
QUOTE
Honestly, heal might technically work on objects if it passed object resistance, but I think most GMs prefer to keep it simple. It would be kind of silly to have a Mage be a mechanic by healing cars.

Well, heal is a manaspelle, so you can't use it on inanimate objects. However you may use "increase body" to increase the Body of a Drone (by RAW).
Why on god lovely earth are some healingspells physical?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 4 2010, 01:53 PM) *
Mind that when I suggested this, I was specifically thinking of Cyberware. Bioware, while it eats essence, might be sufficiently alive. What do others think?


I think that you are partially correct (disagreement is bolded). Bioware is completely alive. In fact, with cultured bioware they incorporate your own genes into the bioware.

Here's what I think. For every point of Essence lost to cyberware (round up) there should be 1 die penalty for casting magic (mana spells only) on that person.


QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 4 2010, 01:57 PM) *
It's sufficiently alive, and is repaired by the body's own cells, so it seems fair game.

But I'm hesitant to give bioadepts any more incentive.

I would think price would be a VERY big drawback for the Bio Sammy! Here is just one example: You can either get Wired Reflexes 2 for 32000, or you can pay 160000 for Synaptic Booster 2. This means that while yes the Bio Sammy saves some Essence he's not getting any more 'ware. While the cyber sammy can get 128000 nuyen.gif more 'ware.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now slightly off topic: Would it be possible to incorporate any vision enhancements into cyberware protective eye covers? I mean you can incorporate vision enhancements into contact lenses, so putting them into Protective covers seems logical. Also any enhancements put into those protective covers DO NOT count as cyberware for casting spells since protective covers don't cost Essence. All the other cyber costs Essence and therefore is valid for spell casting.
Ascalaphus
Well, if cyborgization makes you more an object than a person, it makes sense you get Object Resistance. BUT! That would also mean you should lose the ability to resist magic with Willpower and such..
Inpu
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 6 2010, 10:27 AM) *
Well, if cyborgization makes you more an object than a person, it makes sense you get Object Resistance. BUT! That would also mean you should lose the ability to resist magic with Willpower and such..


That's why I'm going with a modifier rather than pure OR. A player should always get a roll, and so the Or can be dealt with in a different way since it is attached to a living being.

Some already have an inbuilt resistance and so are not covered in this thread: such as Cyberzombies, since they have an inbuilt resistance already accounted for, and cyborgs, since they are basically immune unless there is direct line of sight to them inside their shell.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ Aug 6 2010, 04:16 AM) *
Mages have a trade off of being able to do more damage over a lesser period of time. People say combat tends to last one or two rounds so this limitation does not come into play for most people.


It isn't always that fast.

The sample corpsec guard in SR4 when targetted will roll 4 Rea + 4 cover + 3 dodge when targetted, that's 11 dice.

Say the attacker faces -1 for medium ranger, -2 for being in cover, and he needs 3 more dice to have an even chance of getting a net hit - that's a 17 dice pool before neg modifiers needed to hit a basic grunt just over 50% of the time. Unless you have very large dice pools or an automatic for wide bursts, hits are just not that common - and even if you do hit him, he's going to soak 3 DV, which won't take him out (but might make him run or stay back delaying his actions, making it take even longer). Add in group Edge, low IP mooks keeping their heads down when out of passes, or opposition that's actually statted, cybered and armored like the runners, things don't end in one or two turns unless everybody is just standing out in the open and targets don't fight defensively.

A manaball ruins everything though - target can't full dodge and don't get to soak. Dishes out tons of hurt.
Irion
@Smokeskin
QUOTE
The sample corpsec guard in SR4 when targetted will roll 4 Rea + 4 cover + 3 dodge when targetted, that's 11 dice.

Say the attacker faces -1 for medium ranger, -2 for being in cover, and he needs 3 more dice to have an even chance of getting a net hit - that's a 17 dice pool before neg modifiers needed to hit a basic grunt just over 50% of the time.

So the magic equvalent of a granate is effectiv. Whats about the sam tossing a granade?
Yes, a mage with: Stunbolt, Stunball, Powerbolt, Powerball and Laser might have a spell for nearly every target.
(Metahuman: Stunbolt, Powerbolt
Methahuman(Group): Stunball, Powerball
Drone(medium armor): Laser.
Drone(heavy armor): Powerbolt.)
But a Sam might also carry different kinds of weapons)
Mäx
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 6 2010, 11:27 AM) *
A manaball ruins everything though - target can't full dodge and don't get to soak. Dishes out tons of hurt.

Manaball does nothing if the opposition is behind cover, no LOS no manaball.
Now a fireball on the otherhand works wonders, but so does a Willy Pete grenade.
Wasabi
Fine print: "Although Reaction and Combat Sense allow the fireball or Wooly Pete grenade's explosion to be reduced or even avoided."
Dakka Dakka
Don't forget that cover and visibility also affects the mage - not only with indirect spells. So generally the mage will throw a lot less dice than the samurai. Don't forget background count, the samurai will never be affected by it
Ascalaphus
Hmm. So how do you calculate cover/visibility for a direct area effect? Say a mage is throwing a stunball at two guards, one of which is behind cover (both still at least partially visible to satisfy LOS). Does the mage subtract dice on his spellcasting for the cover? But the other guard doesn't have cover, so that'd be kinda funky.
Dakka Dakka
Just add them to the resistance dice. I always found it weird that SR4 (without the A) decreased the attackers pool for targets in cover and so making glitches more frequent.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Aug 6 2010, 12:38 PM) *
Just add them to the resistance dice. I always found it weird that SR4 (without the A) decreased the attackers pool for targets in cover and so making glitches more frequent.


Oh, that makes sense.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012