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Smokeskin
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Aug 6 2010, 12:22 PM) *
Don't forget that cover and visibility also affects the mage - not only with indirect spells. So generally the mage will throw a lot less dice than the samurai.


No. Visibility affects both samurai and mage (though the samurai might have better vision). Both their targets get to add cover. The mage might take background count, but the samurai has to deal with attacking from cover and range modifiers also, but gets a smartlink. Both benefit from augmentations and foci.

Generally, Willpower tends to be lower than Reaction, especially against augmented opponents.

The real kicker is that while most targets taking incoming fire will go full defense, they have no defense options vs spells unless counterspelling is available.

Overall, the mage typically has an easier time hitting, can hit a lot of targets, and they can't soak, but only 1 attack per IP and counterspelling really screws with them.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 6 2010, 01:41 PM) *
Overall, the mage typically has an easier time hitting, can hit a lot of targets, and they can't soak, but only 1 attack per IP and counterspelling really screws with them.


Now why would a mage restrict himself like that? There are spells, adept powers, drugs, and low-Essence cost bioware options to gain additional IPs.
Mäx
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 6 2010, 01:51 PM) *
Now why would a mage restrict himself like that? There are spells, adept powers, drugs, and low-Essence cost bioware options to gain additional IPs.

He meant that becouse casting is a comblex action, mages only get to do that once per IP.
But thats not right either as multicasting lets them cast as many spells as they want with that one comblex action(well a mechanical limit is their magic+spellcasting as you need to allocate at least 1 die per spell) and of cource risng drain is an issue.
Inpu
That, and the multiple spell option means they can have more than one attack per IP.

Leiden, eh? Right next door.

EDIT: I've been ninja'd.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 6 2010, 01:59 PM) *
But thats not right either as multicasting lets them cast as many spells as they want with that one comblex action(well a mechanical limit is their magic+spellcasting as you need to allocate at least 1 die per spell) and of cource risng drain is an issue.


Multicasting against targets in cover tend to not do much though.
Smokeskin
double
Mäx
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 6 2010, 02:08 PM) *
Multicasting against targets in cover tend to not do much though.

Why, i would say that depenps on how many dice you have to cast those spells with, compared to how many they have to dodge them with the cover bonus.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 6 2010, 01:59 PM) *
Leiden, eh? Right next door.


I dunno? Doesn't say where you're from smile.gif
Inpu
In Zeist currently, next to Utrecht. Moved from America.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 6 2010, 02:12 PM) *
Why, i would say that depenps on how many dice you have to cast those spells with, compared to how many they have to dodge them with the cover bonus.


Sure, but against Will 3 + cover 4 = 7, and you need to roll more hits than the target, you need a seriously large dice pool. Even at 16 dice to split, you're not going to have a 50% chance to get a net hit.
Mäx
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 6 2010, 02:50 PM) *
Sure, but against Will 3 + cover 4 = 7, and you need to roll more hits than the target, you need a seriously large dice pool. Even at 16 dice to split, you're not going to have a 50% chance to get a net hit.

My exsorcist mysadd has 12/spell if she casts 2 combatspells biggrin.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 6 2010, 03:04 PM) *
My exsorcist mysadd has 12/spell if she casts 2 combatspells biggrin.gif
Please elaborate
Mäx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Aug 6 2010, 03:05 PM) *
Please elaborate

Magic 2 + spellcasting 4 = 6/2 = 3 + 2(mentor) + 2(spec) + 5(specasting focus) = 12 dice per spell if casting 2.
Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 6 2010, 02:07 PM) *
Magic 2 + spellcasting 4 = 6/2 = 3 + 2(mentor) + 2(spec) + 5(specasting focus) = 12 dice per spell if casting 2.


Rating 5 combat spellcasting focus? Dear god.
Mäx
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Aug 6 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Rating 5 combat spellcasting focus? Dear god.

biggrin.gif
Resricted gear is a nice quality.
Saint Hallow
I don't see why more samurais don't take magic resistance quality. Most samurais have a hard time being healed with magic and most spells would have a hard time benefiting them anyway... might as well take magic resistance and add more dice to resist spells. Willpower also shouldn't be ignored.
Yerameyahu
Because they're already Fomori Ghouls SURGEd for Astral Hazing. biggrin.gif Hehe, sigh.
Glyph
From the FAQ:

QUOTE
How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?

A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately.

Which I agree with, personally. The only modifiers that should apply to both tests should be from glare, smoke, stationary target, etc. Why the hell do people think that splitting their dice pools should magically double their specialization dice or make their foci twice as powerful? Although I think the rules should have been worded much more clearly to begin with.



Oh, and this came up on the first page, but I'll address it:

From Runner's companion (emphasis mine):

QUOTE
Non-magical metagenetic qualities that do not have a bioware or cyberware equivalent may be introduced into the game via Transgenic Alteration geneware (p. 92, Augmentation) at the gamemaster's discretion.

So disallowing arcane arrester as geneware is actually RAW, not a house rule.
Yerameyahu
What's magical? Some are obvious (Arcane Arrester), but not all. Good catch, though. smile.gif
Traul
You emphasized the wrong part, Glyph:
QUOTE
Non-magical metagenetic qualities that do not have a bioware or cyberware equivalent may be introduced into the game via Transgenic Alteration geneware (p. 92, Augmentation) at the gamemaster's discretion.

Sometimes, house ruling is RAW cool.gif
Glyph
That part means that even the non-magical qualities might not be allowed by the GM.
Mäx
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 7 2010, 10:37 PM) *
From the FAQ:

That might have some validity if it didn't directy contradic the actual rulebook.
Thats one of the many part of the faq where somebody is trying to impose their houserules on to everyone else.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 7 2010, 04:47 PM) *
That might have some validity if it didn't directy contradic the actual rulebook.


According to the actual rulebook, Spirits can not Manifest, Materialize or Inhabit because those are Physical Powers and therefore can not be used from the Astral plane...
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Aug 8 2010, 04:07 AM) *
According to the actual rulebook, Spirits can not Manifest, Materialize or Inhabit because those are Physical Powers and therefore can not be used from the Astral plane...
Since sometimes the rulebook is in error, there are errata. The aforementioned problem should have been fixed a long time ago. FAQ should not contradict the rules, they should only clarify them. If they do it is irrelevant, since it is not an actual rule. If something is written under the heading of FAQ, it cannot change the rules just as rules marked as optional are not mandatory.
Irion
Actually, it does not. It is nowhere stated how you handle vision modifiers or foki, if dealing with multicast.
So it does not contradict the rules.

All you got where two interpretations on the basis of the rules.
Truth is, that one was a lot closer to RAW. But the FAQ made it clear which one is the one to take.
Glyph
Yeah, in that instance I didn't see anything blatantly contradicting the rules, so I see it as clarifying which interpretation is valid.

I do ignore it when it actually does contradict the rules. The ruling on how the mystic adept mage/adept split works is wrong, since the example in the book clearly show that the levels in an adept power are not limited by the level taken for adept powers.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 7 2010, 03:37 PM) *
From the FAQ:


Which I agree with, personally. The only modifiers that should apply to both tests should be from glare, smoke, stationary target, etc. Why the hell do people think that splitting their dice pools should magically double their specialization dice or make their foci twice as powerful? Although I think the rules should have been worded much more clearly to begin with.



Oh, and this came up on the first page, but I'll address it:

From Runner's companion (emphasis mine):


So disallowing arcane arrester as geneware is actually RAW, not a house rule.


Hell just for ease of use I prefer this one. How any dice to you roll normally, 16 okay 1/2 that for each spell. 16/2=8 is easier than (8/2)+2+2+4=12. Yeah neither is hard, but i prefer ones where I can glance at crib notes I have of the PCs and know what to expect.
Dakka Dakka
How you add the modifiers with multi-casting is unknown as the rules don't say anything, but in the only other two situations where a dice pool is split (shooting two weapons at once, or attacking with two melee weapons simultaneously) all modifiers are applied after the split. IMHO you should not introduce another mechanism. And according to the rules a specialization does not increase the skill but adds a positive dice pool modifier to the roll, so by RAW it is added afterwards unlike what the FAQ says.

Don't forget the aforementioned rule applies to all modifiers including negative ones like visibility, wounds, range etc.
Glyph
I always took the term modifiers to apply to things like darkness, stationary targets, and so forth. I always considered dice pool bonuses such as specializations to be part of the base dice pool being split. It makes more sense that way.

The rules are damn annoyingly vague, even with the FAQ. Even the example of multicasting is only a mage with 4 spellcasting and 4 Magic - it would have helped a lot if they had included a specialization and a power focus in there, just to demonstrate how they get split.
Yerameyahu
It helps to limit overpower and mod stacking, certainly. Even if it's not RAW, a worthwhile house rule option.
Sheala
sorry for resurecting old thread, but anyway...

there are lot of types of mages not all of them are specialized to combat... it takes some spells and dedication to have the same initiative as the sammy. So the sammy acts first... interrupts thje mage with some damage, in perfect world kills him in 1st pass. Of course the mage could be hiding or concealed ... but the same goes for the sammy...

I just remebmer my last session, where i realized how much is initiative needed... I was almost killed in the 1st pass... by mantis spirit corrosive spit. I was a mage with mere 7 initiative, 3 passes (6 base, the bonuses from increase reflexes) Instead of dodging I wanted to attune the insect domain to more natural magical backround, by cleansing. One spit and I was lying on ground. (Good thing the GM let me project astrally and finish the cleansing, and finally our team killed the spirit)
Yes its a spirit, but it could be a grenade from sammy or anything similar smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Sheala @ Aug 23 2010, 02:51 PM) *
sorry for resurecting old thread, but anyway...

there are lot of types of mages not all of them are specialized to combat... it takes some spells and dedication to have the same initiative as the sammy. So the sammy acts first... interrupts thje mage with some damage, in perfect world kills him in 1st pass. Of course the mage could be hiding or concealed ... but the same goes for the sammy...

I just remebmer my last session, where i realized how much is initiative needed... I was almost killed in the 1st pass... by mantis spirit corrosive spit. I was a mage with mere 7 initiative, 3 passes (6 base, the bonuses from increase reflexes) Instead of dodging I wanted to attune the insect domain to more natural magical backround, by cleansing. One spit and I was lying on ground. (Good thing the GM let me project astrally and finish the cleansing, and finally our team killed the spirit)
Yes its a spirit, but it could be a grenade from sammy or anything similar smile.gif



He who goes first usually goes last. smile.gif I am still used to 2e though where the Sams or bad guy Sams would go, then go, then I'd finally go then, they would go again. Luckily I did not have much use for my combat pool so I put it all to saving my ass for the first two passes. So there, I walked both ways up hill in the snow dammit. And now you want to talk about A insect spirit dropping you, A not even plural. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
I think you mean 'an'. biggrin.gif Mwa ha.

Why doesn't the mage have the initiative of the sam, though? I thought the spell was identical to Wires. Did this sam get Reaction Boosters or something?
Sheala
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 23 2010, 09:11 PM) *
I think you mean 'an'. biggrin.gif Mwa ha.

Why doesn't the mage have the initiative of the sam, though? I thought the spell was identical to Wires. Did this sam get Reaction Boosters or something?


Because it was my 1st char, and i started with reaction 3 and intuition 3 smile.gif took logic tradition, needed some charisma, some willpower ... forgot that reaction and intuition is really needed too
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 23 2010, 05:11 PM) *
I think you mean 'an'. biggrin.gif Mwa ha.

Why doesn't the mage have the initiative of the sam, though? I thought the spell was identical to Wires. Did this sam get Reaction Boosters or something?


An isn't as cool looking when you cap it as A. As for why in 2e a mages initiative wasn't the same 1, sams had access to more boosters(access is the wrong word, but mages did not like losing essence), 2 grounding. No one felt comfortable with a spell lock running. They were the weakest focus(force 1)which made them fireball grounding beacons. In 4e, just look at how you spend your stats even a plane jane sam will have a batter reaction and probably the same or better intuition and you only need 2-3 points higher initiative to pretty much guarantee going faster than the other guy. And heck spirits are damn fast nowadays.
Yerameyahu
Ooh, Heck Spirits sound powerful. wink.gif I summon 3!
Shinobi Killfist
Yeesh, Bind 3, bind 3. You can only have one summoned at a time. smile.gif

On a serious non-smart ass note, due to how spirits stats are formed a force 5+ spirit goes really fast. You would be hard pressed to get a mage going that speed. Totally possible with enough spell locks, but still hard to do. The force 8ish spirits I typically summoned just go first, once we got around to my initiative so I could command them at least. beret.gif

So Sheala while yes reaction and intuition are important don't expect to beat out spirits. And with 200BP you can only get so much, straight 3's in stats uses up 160 of those 200 points. If you want to be good in your drain stats, you end up average in everything else. So unless you have something you can dump, you won't be bumping reaction or intuition much. Also then you might forget body which while I prefer reaction to be above 6 high, I prefer my body to be 4-5 before I get my reaction anywhere. This is because of the armor limit being tied to your body stat. And sustaining focuses can handle a lot of this and because of how increase attribute spells work mid range stats are a good choice IMO.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Simon Kerimov @ Aug 4 2010, 04:35 AM) *
There is the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait that I could see becoming geneware or bioware.

Geneware maybe.... don't see bioware being an option.
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