Ya, I'm not a fan of the infection during game play rules either. The bonuses for being a ghoul are pretty good, but the social draw backs of being an infected mutant cannibal are horrendous, and the idea that anyone would allow a power 8, contact vector zombie plague anywhere near a city, letalone granting it citizenship is beyond stupid.

Agreed.

"oooh but Ghouls are people too!"

Exactly, and their community will fit in just fine right next to the leper colonies on whatever remote area.

EDIT: Seriously it isn't even just the Power 8 (as if that wasn't bad enough), what the hell is up with Penetration -6? Do Ghouls have acid blood or something?

Karoline mentioned nanites. O-cells "reduce the Power of any viral or bacterial pathogens that infect the host by its rating", and come with a maximum rating of 9.

Hands down, the best way to shake off HMHVV after you get infected. Rating 8 O-cells cost 20 000 (2 500 x 8 ) and give you full immunity. Dirt cheap, when you consider the alternative.

The only downside is that it makes you immune to everything else out there. Oh well...

Well, we know the absurd infectiousness of ghouls is a writing "accident". Ghouls being dual-natured isn't really an accident, but maybe they accidentally forgot to give ghouls a means of defending themselves from astral attacks?

But extremely aggressive reproduction rates do balance out extreme vulnerability, in the way that vermin and diseases manage to avoid extinction...

Sorry, I should have expressed that better. What I mean to say is this:

Its clear that ghouls with out spellcaster support (they're all awakened) are always going to be dead meat.

therefore, the ghouls worth hunting, worth sending shadowrunners after, probably are a step above the kind of ghouls that are running pell-mell as some apprentice shaman bombards them with stunbolts from the astral.

Wards, spirits, etc.

Wouldn't a high power Mana Static also work?

Good question . .
Technically, a Background Count is a positive but aspekted away from you mana environment.
You would need a Mana-Ebb to kill something magical i think . .

They are people that EAT OTHER PEOPLE.

That tends to colour any support they'd get. Cannibalism is such a... Tricky thing.

Ah, minor details as some would say.

Oh, I'm sure there are groups out there that will make it a major deal.

I mean, hell, there are folks out there that burn crosses just because there are short people in the world!

And not only do they eat other people, but if they go too long without eating, they lose control over their willpower and go on a killing rampage.

Well, the actual downside is that each time they do this, their rating drops by one. So if you have rating 8 O-cells and get hit four times, the first time it will negate it completely, the second it will drop it to power 1 (very doable) then a power 2 (Getting a little tight) and finally only to power 3 (Which is starting to get very difficult for non-trolls). The O-cells will regenerate, but only at a rate of something like 1 rating/week with a nanohive. So yeah, maybe grab a second injection of the stuff for when your main O-cells start to die off, and make sure both are full rating 9. That's a fair chunk of change, but it you make a living off hunting ghouls or something, it is likely to pay off (And it helps that it works on other things too for when you aren't ghoul hunting)

Not sure if mana static can kill anything other then spirits, if it can, then sure.

Ah! I totally forgot about dropping the rating. That makes it a lot more balanced.
Very good

Edit: Actually... could someone point me to the right page for this rule? Can't seem to locate it...

Hmm, actually it is nantidotes that do that, I just figured the rule continued to hold true for O-cells as well. I think I put it as a house rule for my L4D game.

Well, to be fair, if a ghoul touches you four times, it's probably just torn you to shreds. Because that means you gave it time to take 4 Complex Actions for melee attacks! More than enough time to kill it with a proper cleanse-the-unholy gun.

Well, I'm thinking multiple ghoul encounters over the span of an extermination or something as opposed letting a ghoul gnaw on you for a minute or two to prove how tough you are.

True.. better carry some booster packs with nanites then I guess? Cost of doing business and all.

Hmm. Can you even put nanites into autoinjectors?

Technically, no . .
Your own close combat action hitting the ghoul also counts as touching . .
Hence: "WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WILLINGLY ENTER CLOSE-COMBAT WITH A GHOUL?"

So long as they are typed for your body, and in an appropriate suspension, I see no reason why not. I mean you can do it to nanocutters right?

I was going to make a comment continuing the conversation about melee combat with A ghoul.

Where the heck are you guys finding A ghoul? If it were as easy as A ghoul, I wouldn't have such a beef with the infection rules as they stand.

We're really talking about three ghouls flailing at you at once while you attempt in vain to make one melee attack to fend them off.

I hate ghouls, I hate dealing with them, I hate their silly overpowered diseases, I hate that that disease costs you 100 karma when it is thrust upon you without your consent. I don't even deal with ghouls! I have a ghoul 'chop shop' as a contact make bodies disappear, but I don't even expect any cash from harvested 'ware.

I drive up, slow down just enough to kick the body out the door and keep going. I throw a little note on the body that they can read when it comes to a tumbling, twisted halt.

Dear Freaks,

Here, have some food. You guys like food, right?

Consider it a favor to pay for "protection" from you and your kind.

XOXO,
Socrates.

P.S. Stay the *#*# away from me Ugo!

My attitude on hunting ghouls:

you blow the building up with c4
once the explosions stop, you pour gasoline all over the demolition site, and you set it on fire.
You wait for the fire to go out, and then you blow the place up with c4 again.

Then you get your mage friend to summon a few spirits and bind them to kill any ghouls they see.

You *shouldn't* expect cash from harvested 'ware.

I'd also be more polite in my letter really.

What?

I gave them "hugs and kisses," I'm sure that is as polite as they've gotten in a long time. I'm like their best friend that never, ever, under any circumstances, wants to see them.

Right?

I was kinda fishing for that


Ghouls do trigger my "kill it with fire!" sentiments. Well, I appreciate the existence in the setting, but I'm having difficulty with the Ghoul Rights thing. I imagine even most hardened criminals think the world would be a nicer place without ghouls.

Why? It isn't like they can read (being blind and all).

I know that AH has apologized for his work on HMHVV in Runner's Companion, but was it one of the items he sent in errata for in the German version? If so, what was the fix or what was it supposed to be if it was finalized?

dunno if he actually did send in Errata for his stuff to germany, but i guess the simple fix would be to make it injection vector . .
This means as long as the ghoul does no physical damage with a close combat attack, you simply do not get sick . .
Well, at least as long as you don't have open wounds around ghouls . . but then, if you do, you are in trouble anyway . .

And/or reduce the power? 8 is rather a lot..

*shrugs*
maybe.
Under SR3, Ghoulism was easy to cure.
Easier than the common cold to be exact.

Ghoul HMHVV is so ridiculously contagious that I bet you're at risk of infection even with purely metaphorical hugs.

Chem-sealed, fireproofed, respirator-equipped chainmail with added ballistic plates and a Shriketek RaID-2 (mag-fed burst-capable shotgun with an underbarrel flamethrower nozzle) would be a good way to start out. Without going the exotic breed route (something immune to disease) or the O-cells route (which might conflict with the written description of there being no way to mitigate HMHVV's effects), keeping from making "contact" with something you're trying to kill is probably your best route. That, and bringing friends for if/when you get knocked down.

Other good approaches:

• Burn the building from outside.
• Drive an armored bulldozer into the building with your friends firing through the hole you've just made.
• Nerve gas.
• Drones.
• Close combat training and a tactical network.
• Snipers/yahoos with hunting rifles.

Interestingly, blowing up the building is a bad plan... throwing bits of infectious ghoul all over a three block radius is bad. Burning might have the same problem, but if your accelerants burn hot enough, it's less of an issue.

Hmm.

Feral Ghouls are Critters right?

Pimp out a ghoul with bioware and a stirrup interface and let your feral remote control ghoul hunt ghouls for you.

That's a very expensive drone!

I'd go with 2 Crimson Samurai, with Walker mods.
One with Heavy Machine gun, one with Flame Thrower.

Herd with suppression fire, kill with actual fire.
They come with 12 points of hardened armor. Against a Ghoul, that's some nice stuff.

Well, I could always go with a Doberman with Monofiliament Chainsaw, target recognition program (Ghoul identification) and let them loose in a ghoul home.

Add theft protection with electric shocks

What do you mean light doesn´t hurt SR ghouls? Bring a bunch of drones armed with ARES MP3 Lasers. Little to no blood will be shed.

Wel, THAT kind of Light will hurt most everybody . .
But no, ghouls don't suffer from a light allery like most everything else with HMHVV . .

Also, what's to stop ghouls from simply tipping over the drone?

Getting shot, I assume.

Anyone who takes the Carrier 5 pt negative quality for HMHVV, can safely hunt ghouls. They spread the disease but as carriers are immune to it themselves.

There are 3 strains of HMHVV. As per the write up of Carrier in RC, you only get immunity to ONE of those strains per Carrier quality, with the possibility that it will, at any time (depending on backstory or how much of a bas jerk your GM is) evolve into one of the others. Take it 3 times along with 15 BP to be sure

Additionally, Dual-Natured beings such as Ghouls and Dragons exist on both the physical world and Astral Plane at the same time, and are able to INTERACT with both. What this means is that your astrally projecting mage will NOT be immune to harm, just immune to infection. Any non-feral ghoul with any sense will bolt for a narrow corridor or room which would force your mage to be within potential striking distance. No, you are not risking infection. Yes, you are risking a muckle of angry ghouls who can see you. Yes, you'd better hope you can ditch to a metaplane or else you might just be held in place and curb stomped. Just, y'know, fyi

Splash/Smoke-Grenades filled with FAB(something) . .
It will eat the ghouls alive, see how they like a taste of their own medicine . .

Ghetto Drone Combat!

This Old Drone's Ferret RPD-V1 Perimeter Drone, remove the Searchlight, add on a Lawnmower at a 90° angle, probably add on an extra "Fuel" tank to handle the extra electricity needed as insurance. Bonus points if you do it with the power of duct tape!

BTW: I just got "Dead Rising 2" back from loaning it to a friend.

So say you do hunt down ghouls for a bounty... How the hell would you collect for each kill? Proof of death, as it were. It's not like bringing in Zip-Loc bag full of fake pointy ears for taking out elf-posers.

Severed heads in a watertight burlap bag.

Nothing like traditional bounty hunting!

Which gets rid of a lot of the KILL IT WITH FIRE attitude. Unless they have a distinct skull and you are recreating John Carpenter's Vampires. And even then walking through in extreme HazMat gear to collect heads? Gonna need a drone for that too.

Use a jar-head cyborg.

Totally immune to HMHVV.
Fast as heck in a fight.
And looks like nothing special on the astral.

Remember your average ghoul is blind on the physical. All he'll get on a jar-head is a boring astral shadow, in a world filled with boring stral shadows.

For a much cheaper version, a drone rigger with a few repeater drones could do something similiar. The cyborg's big benefit is that he's immune to jamming.

Ever seen the art for them?

No mistaking them for anything else.

At least you don't have the skin the bloody thing like they demand in Quebec. (Pelts, baby!)

I was under the impression that each of the three HMHVV strains had a different make-up for each species (a human can be carrier for a Harvester strain, but wouldn't be affected by it anyway). I was also under the impression that any of the species with the infection power can't be carriers, as you either have it and are a vampire, or you had it and are dead. (Infection only possibly occurs when your essence is reduced to 0)