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Nifft
If you were to recruit a team to take out ghoul nests, who would be in it?

Immunity to HMHVV:
- Pixies
- Naga
- Shapeshifters
- Dracoforms
- Free Spirit
- AI + drones

Some Protection from HMHVV:
- Rigger (assumes secure location)
- Mage + Astral Projection

Already Infected:
- PC ghouls?

- - -

I'm putting together an intro one-shot with the idea that it'll show some of the more unlikely stuff in the Runner's Companion. Has anyone run a game themed on ghoul-hunting, and care to share party composition & experiences?

Thanks, -- N
Karoline
QUOTE (Nifft @ Aug 4 2010, 02:24 PM) *
If you were to recruit a team to take out ghoul nests, who would be in it?

Immunity to HMHVV:
- Shapeshifters
- Dracoforms
- Free Spirit
- AI + drones

Some Protection from HMHVV:
- Rigger (assumes secure location)
- Mage + Astral Projection

Already Infected:
- PC ghouls?

- - -

I'm putting together an intro one-shot with the idea that it'll show some of the more unlikely stuff in the Runner's Companion. Has anyone run a game themed on ghoul-hunting, and care to share party composition & experiences?

Thanks, -- N

I ran a game on the threads here that died out because I couldn't keep up with the work of running it, it was based on a zombie apocalypse scenario. You'd have to go dig through the 'welcome to the shadows' thread for it, last post was likely sometime in... November maybe of last year? Don't even remember what the game was called, but a search for 'zombie apocalypse' might bring it up.

Edit: Here they are.
TBRMInsanity
One of the best Vampire hunters in SR history was Martin DeVirus (a Vampire himself). Who knows their prey better then their own? If I was hunting infected though I would go the Mage and Rigger (with a crap load of droids) route myself. You don't want to mess around with HMHVV. I wouldn't even hold back on using FAT III if I could get my hands on it.
Stahlseele
complete cyber-replacement.
apply chem-seal to the body itself.
Karoline
Only problem with being a vampire hunting vampires is that it is hard to use some of their weaknesses against them. Can't stay out in the sun with them to make sure they dust (Not that they do in SR), or hold a wooden stake. Could still use wooden bullets I suppose.

The real problem with ghouls is that by the rules, the HMHVV is virtually impossible to resist, requiring 24 dice on average to fight off the power 8. It is also spread by simple contact not only with the ghoul itself, but with its blood, spit, or skin.

A sealed suit of armor would likely be the best line of defense for someone that isn't immune that deals with them in person. Military or something like that would be a good idea with a helmet that completely encloses the head. Then they'd have to actually bypass the armor (Deal P damage instead of S) to have any chance of infecting you.

Could throw in those nanites that give you a massive bonus against infections and such.
Chainsaw Samurai
HMHVV is ridiculously contagious. I've never agreed it should be simple contact with the ghoul, but more traditionally zombie styled: blood to wound contact, bodily fluid ingestion, or bite wounds. Under those circumstances, I'm alright with the absolutely asinine resistance tests with absolutely no outside help from magic or medicine.

Seriously, think about the current ability of that disease to be spread. Contact with the ghoul? Contact with spit, blood, skin? There is absolutely no way a disease that contagious with no cure or vaccine would be limited to a very small portion of the Seattle population. Especially since these things usually live in the sewers and other similarly dank areas where they have moderate access to the city's water supply. It wouldn't be long before, at a bare minimum, the entirety of the barrens was infected; then they go looking to higher class neighborhoods for food and continue spreading the disease. It is a little asinine as written.

The disease has ridiculous transmission methods and a penetration of neg six. Seriously?
Stahlseele
AH allready apologized for that.
Martin_DeVries_Institute
QUOTE (Karoline @ Aug 4 2010, 01:28 PM) *
Only problem with being a vampire hunting vampires is that it is hard to use some of their weaknesses against them. Can't stay out in the sun with them to make sure they dust (Not that they do in SR), or hold a wooden stake. Could still use wooden bullets I suppose....

Very true. My namesakes' best weapon in his fight against vampires was the special magical focus he had, which granted him additional Essence--very useful when fighting creatures that can drain E. Without that I doubt he'd be quite so feared.

QUOTE ('Karoline)
Could throw in those nanites that give you a massive bonus against infections and such.

The nanites would be good as you can get them tailored to stop HMHVV. That may be the best bet for a character to avoid getting it.
Stahlseele
For technic mass production, go drones.
For magial mass production, go spirits.
For exotic technical, go full body replacement with chem-seal applied to the body directly.
For exotic natural go with any of the above mentioned ways.
Traul
Most sapient critters are immune too. A projecting mage or free spirit looks close to an I win button, unless the ghouls have planned serious astral defenses. It will probably be more fun for everyone if you forget those. If you want some spellslinging mojo, use a mystic adept instead.
Magus
But Ghouls don't even have the INFECTION power, so you would not really have to worry about that.
Stahlseele
They don't need that power.
They are carriers of HMHVV.
And that Disease has the contact vector.
After all, there is a quality of sterile carrier.
And that was one of the differences between NPCritter and PC ghouls under SR3, PC ghouls did not have infection, NPCritter ghouls did.
Nifft
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 4 2010, 03:59 PM) *
Most sapient critters are immune too. A projecting mage or free spirit looks close to an I win button, unless the ghouls have planned serious astral defenses. It will probably be more fun for everyone if you forget those. If you want some spellslinging mojo, use a mystic adept instead.

Awesome, thanks: Pixie, Naga, and Centaur look good. Well, actually Centaur looks like it could be a bit unwieldy if the team had to sneak anywhere... hmm.

I see a lot of pixie builds around here, so those must be decent, right?

How is the Naga in play? Seems to have armor issues, if recent threads are any indication.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Aug 4 2010, 02:28 PM) *
Only problem with being a vampire hunting vampires is that it is hard to use some of their weaknesses against them. Can't stay out in the sun with them to make sure they dust (Not that they do in SR), or hold a wooden stake. Could still use wooden bullets I suppose.

The real problem with ghouls is that by the rules, the HMHVV is virtually impossible to resist, requiring 24 dice on average to fight off the power 8. It is also spread by simple contact not only with the ghoul itself, but with its blood, spit, or skin.

A sealed suit of armor would likely be the best line of defense for someone that isn't immune that deals with them in person. Military or something like that would be a good idea with a helmet that completely encloses the head. Then they'd have to actually bypass the armor (Deal P damage instead of S) to have any chance of infecting you.

Could throw in those nanites that give you a massive bonus against infections and such.

Since the virus takes a while to change you, ride a suborbital once infected, to kill the virus off by exposing it to space.
Starmage21
Dont forget the other infected. Vampires and such are immune to kreiger HMHVV
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 4 2010, 11:56 PM) *
Since the virus takes a while to change you, ride a suborbital once infected, to kill the virus off by exposing it to space.

you know . . i don't think anyone actually ever thought of that yet O.o
The Jopp
I would hire this man...

meet the preacher
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 4 2010, 05:00 PM) *
you know . . i don't think anyone actually ever thought of that yet O.o

Maybe they have, the problem is that a sub-orbital flight would be expensive, the other problem is it still might not kill the virus because the person carrying it might provide enough to sustain it even if they are in deep space.
Johnny Hammersticks
It isn't much fun, but an caster who can project is and is specialized in astral combat is all you'll ever need.

Stahlseele
Well, Space is a what?
A-10? -12? Mana-Ebb?
Dunno if Background-Count would be enough for the same effect . .
If that were the case, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Auschwitz and other such places would be the best places for stopping such things . .
Karoline
QUOTE (Johnny Hammersticks @ Aug 4 2010, 05:17 PM) *
It isn't much fun, but an caster who can project is and is specialized in astral combat is all you'll ever need.

Astral combat?

Just stunbolt them from 100m, keep hitting till they get close, then fly strait up 100m and laugh hysterically as they run for cover. A duel natured creature's biggest fear is an astral entity with a ranged attack.
Badmoodguy88
As for HMHVV in the water supply. Take the scary virus of our day: HIV. It is easy to kill outside of a person, and it can not survive long outside of body fluids or excrement. Even then it is like 2-3 days tops unless you have a pool of blood thing going on. A lot of other viruses are a LOT more resilient to heat, cold, and age.
Johnny Hammersticks
QUOTE (Karoline @ Aug 4 2010, 06:21 PM) *
Astral combat?

Just stunbolt them from 100m, keep hitting till they get close, then fly strait up 100m and laugh hysterically as they run for cover. A duel natured creature's biggest fear is an astral entity with a ranged attack.


Sure, this is assuming ghouls have little in the way of tactics or brains. I'd think most ghouls who have brains left would gather around awakened ghouls and have tactics to not get slaughtered by astral attackers (wards, spirits, casters)


Karoline
QUOTE (Johnny Hammersticks @ Aug 4 2010, 05:24 PM) *
Sure, this is assuming ghouls have little in the way of tactics or brains. I'd think most ghouls who have brains left would gather around awakened ghouls and have tactics to not get slaughtered by astral attackers (wards, spirits, casters)

But how many ghouls are awakened? Does the 0.1% from metahumans hold true? In that case, it shouldn't be hard to take out a few hundred ghouls before even seeing a mage ghoul. Similarly, not alot of mages are going to want to work for ghouls to set up astral defenses for them.

And even against an awakened ghoul, the projecting mage will be at an advantage because she can simply drop into the earth or pass through a wall so that the ghoul can't target her, then pop out to blast and go right back into hiding.

Edit: Besides, the ghoul mage is going to be just as big a problem in meat as in astral, so may as well fight the mage where only the mage can really fight, and not the other ghouls.
Stahlseele
Technically, they are ALL awakened . .
Just about the same percentage as in the rest of the population of earth in 2060/2070 is also able to cast spells and summon spirits.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 4 2010, 05:51 PM) *
Technically, they are ALL awakened . .
Just about the same percentage as in the rest of the population of earth in 2060/2070 is also able to cast spells and summon spirits.


Didn't think having a magic attribute was the same as being awakened. Could be wrong about that, fluff terminology isn't my strong suit.
Stahlseele
They are also all dual natured as to both the fluff and the rules if i remember correcty.
Every single ghoul can astrally perceive as well as any adept or mage, nay, even better, as they don't get the -2 dice / +2TN to actions while using their astral perception, because to them IT'S NATURAL.
And the fluff is, as so often, not wholly cohesive in what counts as awakened or not . . sometimes even a metahuman counts as being awakened, or a surgeling. or any kind of critter that came to by because of magic, even if they have no active or passive magic at all, not even a magic attribute as per the rules . . and sometimes, everything with a magic attribute of at least 1 is awakaned . . other times it's only awakened if it can actively or passively make use of some kind of magical effect like spell casting or summoning or shape change or regeneration or any kind of spirit/critter power . .
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 4 2010, 05:55 PM) *
They are also all dual natured as to both the fluff and the rules if i remember correcty.
Every single ghoul can astrally perceive as well as any adept or mage, nay, even better, as they don't get the -2 dice / +2TN to actions while using their astral perception, because to them IT'S NATURAL.

Yeah, they're duel natured, but still, I thought you required adept/ma/mage to be considered awakened. Like I said, could be totally wrong. Critters with a magic attribute that aren't spellcasters are called paranormal, while those that can cast spells or something similar are called awakened. Could be wrong about that though, been a while since I read RW.
Stahlseele
Awakened plants?
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 4 2010, 06:00 PM) *
Awakened plants?

Can totally cast spells nyahnyah.gif

They just.... only effect other plants?

Okay, so yeah, guess it is either the magic attribute or being duel natured. So yeah, they're all awakened, but only a few can cast spells, which is my point. 999 out of 1000 you can stunbolt a couple times from a distance before you have to deal with one that can actually do anything to you.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Nifft @ Aug 4 2010, 09:24 PM) *
If you were to recruit a team to take out ghoul nests, who would be in it?


A squad of Jarheads. cyber.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Aug 4 2010, 06:33 PM) *
A squad of Jarheads. cyber.gif

I am so and so, of the clan Jarhead?
Karoline
QUOTE (Nifft @ Aug 4 2010, 02:24 PM) *
If you were to recruit a team to take out ghoul nests, who would be in it?

Oh, and also, a team that doesn't want to be paid up front wink.gif
Udoshi
I'm pretty sure a Free Spirit would own face at ghoul hunting.

Ghouls can't really do anything about their dual natured ness. A spirit, on the other hand, can zip around on the astral plane tossing LOS mana spells, causing Fear, Confusion (they are mana powers) against anything astrally percieving, while enjoying its extra astral passes and initiative.

Healing stun damage(such as drain) is a body+Willpower, 1 hour extended test. When a spirit's had enough, they just pop over to a beach, have a drink, and relax. Rush job that healing test, don't worry about glitches due to guard, heal some drain, then get back to popping ghoul heads.

Like an astral jet fighter, with an unlimited supply of missiles and a half hour restock time.
Ascalaphus
I think Awakened is just a fluff word, with no real meaningful rules meaning.

Ghouls' always-on dual-naturedness makes them easy targets indeed. A good reason for them to hide, hide, hide from say, Lone Star fire elemental summoners. It basically means that anyone who can summon spirits of non-negligible Force can provide decent long-term protection to a neighborhood.
Udoshi
That, and its kind of hard to hide from Search.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Karoline @ Aug 5 2010, 01:48 AM) *
I am so and so, of the clan Jarhead?


Yeh, something like 7 of 9.

"Yo, we've some Ghouls in the basement."
"What you're waitin' for? Go take 'em out!"
"Me? You're nuts? Send the full-borgs!"
Yerameyahu
I agree that projecting mages or astral spirits are all you need, unless they've cleverly 'lost' their Dual Nature. Poor ghouls.
CanRay
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Aug 4 2010, 06:33 PM) *
A squad of Jarheads. cyber.gif

I think I made a comment earlier about not daring US Marines to do something. I'm sure the UCAS/CAS Marine Corps continue that particular tradition...
Chainsaw Samurai
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 4 2010, 05:10 PM) *
I think I made a comment earlier about not daring US Marines to do something. I'm sure the UCAS/CAS Marine Corps continue that particular tradition...


Pretty sure he's referring to the other kind of "jarheads," cyborgs.

Although a Rigurai (Rigger piloting a modified Cyborg body and fulfilling a Street Sam's role with it) would work too. Hard part is getting around the astronomical availability rating. Of course that "hard part" seems a hell of a lot easier than raising an army of proper cyborg "jarheads."
CanRay
Or you could just get the Marines to do it for beer.

I hear they're like the Canadian Armed Forces like that. "They'll take any position and defeat any enemy if there's beer for them at the end." nyahnyah.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 4 2010, 06:51 PM) *
I agree that projecting mages or astral spirits are all you need, unless they've cleverly 'lost' their Dual Nature. Poor ghouls.


Is there any way to do this in game, besides burning out? Perhaps one of those funky spells that remove a sense?
Karoline
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Aug 5 2010, 12:02 AM) *
Is there any way to do this in game, besides burning out? Perhaps one of those funky spells that remove a sense?

Think burnout is the only way, not that it is exceptionally hard to do, they just have to get a single implant, though they might have trouble finding someone to work on them... maybe a ghoul street doc smile.gif

Even if they had their astral perception sense removed, they'd still be duel natured.

Edit: Of course, they're blind without astral perception, so they would be unlikely to be particularly thrilled about being burnt out.
Yerameyahu
I don't think so, no. Even if you removed the astral sense, they're still *there* on the astral, right?
Karoline
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 5 2010, 12:11 AM) *
I don't think so, no. Even if you removed the astral sense, they're still *there* on the astral, right?

Yep.
sabs
so they can be gunned down like dogs from Astral, without being able to do a damn thing about it.

WHy does these guys even exist?
You could wipe out the entire Ghoul Population in a city with 2 spirits
Udoshi
Why not? The same technique, on an astrally percieving mage, would just shut off his astral sight, wouldn't it?

Dual natured people are just folks who astrally percieves -all- the time, and can't turn it off. (at least in this edition. It was probably different before)
Yerameyahu
That's what I'm saying, sabs. I guess the burnouts are maintaining the population.

Udoshi, I don't think that's that case. The two are equivalent, sometimes, but it makes more sense that Dual-Natured things are things the *exist* on both planes at once (have an astral form instead of a shadow). It just logically follows that things existing on the astral have astral perception. When metahumans sneak on with their Astral Perception, they become temporarily *like* Dual-Natured things. It always bothered me that they didn't make the distinction clearer.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Aug 4 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Maybe they have, the problem is that a sub-orbital flight would be expensive, the other problem is it still might not kill the virus because the person carrying it might provide enough to sustain it even if they are in deep space.

The virus will likely have a magic score of less then 6, getting it into a -6 background count WILL kill/cripple it. After that, standard anti-virals will work, since it has no supernatural component left to it.
Chainsaw Samurai
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 4 2010, 09:13 PM) *
The virus will likely have a magic score of less then 6, getting it into a -6 background count WILL kill/cripple it. After that, standard anti-virals will work, since it has no supernatural component left to it.


By that method of thinking then the virus should be targetable from the astral plane, hypothetically through the carrier's body. I don't think that is the case.

I don't think it's meant to be cured, however I also don't think it's meant to be so ridiculously contagious. I especially don't like the "whelp... you're screwed" feeling of being infected, compounded by the fact that the Runner's Companion then expects you to spend your next 100 karma to turn into something you didn't want to have anything to do with in the first place.

Psh... some Companion. With friends like that...
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