I stopped by the Lone Wolf Development booth at GenCon.
Apparently they just got the license to develop a "character builder" for Shadowrun. It will be a plugin for their Hero Lab product, just like the ones for Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, etc.
Should be out some time later this year according the person I talked to.
WOOT!!
Full Version: Good news on the "character builder" front
So is that thing free or do you have to pay for that?
Wonder what this means for the fan based projects?
Probably Cease and Desist Orders . .
Wonder what this means for the fan based projects?
Probably Cease and Desist Orders . .
Lol, don't worry about cease and desist orders.
Yeah, Lone Wolf has commented that they aren't worried about the current fan-made generators, as they think their product will be sufficiently superior enough that people will switch.
-karma
-karma
I'll reserve judgement until I see the final product, but I've seen some really great fan made character builders for various games (including SR) that could put licensed versions to shame, so they really have their work cut out for them AFAICS.
I wish they would/could ask mcmackie to code them one . .
The NSRCG3 is still the best Character Designer i know . .
The NSRCG3 is still the best Character Designer i know . .
I'm one of the Hero Lab developers, and we're definitely looking forward to working on the Shadowrun data package for Hero Lab. I know it'll make running my Shadowrun game easier. 
As someone else posted, we aren't going to do anything about fan-created character builders - we're confident that we'll make something good enough that people will want to pay for, instead of using a free alternative. Lots of people already use Hero Lab over free excel spreadsheets and the like, so I think we've already been successful at that.
If you want to check out Hero Lab and see what it's like today, head over to http://www.wolflair.com/hero_lab and download the free demo - you can play around with it for another game you're familiar with to get a feel for it. I'm also happy to answer any questions people here have about Hero Lab for Shadowrun.
As someone else posted, we aren't going to do anything about fan-created character builders - we're confident that we'll make something good enough that people will want to pay for, instead of using a free alternative. Lots of people already use Hero Lab over free excel spreadsheets and the like, so I think we've already been successful at that.
If you want to check out Hero Lab and see what it's like today, head over to http://www.wolflair.com/hero_lab and download the free demo - you can play around with it for another game you're familiar with to get a feel for it. I'm also happy to answer any questions people here have about Hero Lab for Shadowrun.
I'd rather have the paid product personally.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
I'd rather have the paid product personally.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 10 2010, 05:13 PM) 
I wish they would/could ask mcmackie to code them one . .
The NSRCG3 is still the best Character Designer i know . .
The NSRCG3 is still the best Character Designer i know . .
Best character generator EVAR!
QUOTE (CrowOfPyke @ Aug 11 2010, 01:59 AM)
I'd rather have the paid product personally.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
Aye our leading fan made is mostly not raw. It follows the key but a lot of the creators own house rules are on as standard in some cases unable to be turned off RC on some weapons is calculated wrong to start.
Does hero lab export to a text file or something that could be imported elsewhere? I'd like to revive my character record system for fourth edition, but I haven't wanted to do it until we had something from which to import that people were using, like mcmackie's old text file-based save files.
Does the character builder also include sample artwork for people who want character portraits? I've been scouring the internet looking for good artshots, pics, and images that look "Shadowrun"-ish for my character. However, finding "cyberpunk" themed fantasy characters haven't been easy.
QUOTE (CrowOfPyke @ Aug 10 2010, 06:59 PM)
I'd rather have the paid product personally.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
It will be maintained on a regular basis by people paid to do so. Unlike the free versions out now which are based on author whim and time available.
I am looking forward to the Hero Lab generator.
I'm not speaking ill of this particular product or company as I have no experience with it or them, but in my experience, small independent software vendors aren't any better (and many times are worse) than community-based coders at releasing updates on time. I'm going to give the program a shot, but my expectations aren't very high. At least this company seems interested in the fanbase because I've seen at least two people from the company post on Dumpshock not even counting this thread.
I use herolab for pathfinder, and it is updated quite often.
Herolab is used for several other game systems and has a good record with those.
Unless things have changed from the last time I heard this as I understand it it only covers the main book at release. Once it covers the supplements I'll look into it. Without the supplements it really doesn't help me much.
I agree that I will wait till it is expanded to at least Street Magic before using.
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Aug 10 2010, 11:04 PM)
I'm not speaking ill of this particular product or company as I have no experience with it or them, but in my experience, small independent software vendors aren't any better (and many times are worse) than community-based coders at releasing updates on time. I'm going to give the program a shot, but my expectations aren't very high. At least this company seems interested in the fanbase because I've seen at least two people from the company post on Dumpshock not even counting this thread.
They are the company that also does Army Builder for WH/WH40k. It puts any other free base army builder out there by fan base to shame. I use it a lot, and they keep it updated very frequently to keep up with Gamesworkshop constantly changing product. So, if it is as good as their Army Builder, I will deff have to get it.
3rded. Core just isn't enough to please me.
As to house rules, SR4 needs house rules to cover Karma, and (properly modified) karmagen > BP. Do not doubt this. (also, Martial Arts is training, not a personal Quality. ridiculous.)
My primary hope is that with an "official character generator" out there Hero Lab will be able to force clarity out of Catalyst on its many broke-ass, no-errata-having rules.
As to house rules, SR4 needs house rules to cover Karma, and (properly modified) karmagen > BP. Do not doubt this. (also, Martial Arts is training, not a personal Quality. ridiculous.)
My primary hope is that with an "official character generator" out there Hero Lab will be able to force clarity out of Catalyst on its many broke-ass, no-errata-having rules.
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Aug 10 2010, 06:56 PM)
Does the character builder also include sample artwork for people who want character portraits? I've been scouring the internet looking for good artshots, pics, and images that look "Shadowrun"-ish for my character. However, finding "cyberpunk" themed fantasy characters haven't been easy.
Make your own pics with the Hero Machine!
Here's some code you can use to see chars I've made in the past.
Just click the "Load" button at the top of the options pile (near save and print and such) and paste the code in.
Like, here is an Egyptian (hobgoblin) ex-military deserter who is now a sam-face for hire.
[ Spoiler ]
Here is a Troll heavy weapons/rigger that I never got around to fleshing out apparently.
[ Spoiler ]
Now, an elven gunbunny
[ Spoiler ]
Here's the first one again, post-SURGE
[ Spoiler ]
And here's Covert Troll, the largest thing you'll never see coming!
[ Spoiler ]
It's not perfect, but it makes some decent stuff.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 10 2010, 11:38 PM)
So is that thing free or do you have to pay for that?
Wonder what this means for the fan based projects?
Probably Cease and Desist Orders . .
Wonder what this means for the fan based projects?
Probably Cease and Desist Orders . .
How so? It's not like "character generator" in general is some sort of IP.
The content from the Shadowrun books that is used in there (and usually made available for free) is another matter, of course... so CGL might have a problem with such projects.
Bye
Thanee
Well, up untill now, the stance generally was that as long as the generator did not make the books unneeded to play the game, generators are fine.
Meaning you can put the stuff in there, but not explain what and how it does what it does. So people still need the books to know what to get when and why.
The generator only makes it easier to get the stuff on paper and offers a standardized character sheet which will make it easier to play together usually.
Now comes another question: How much of the Info in the Books will be allowed IN THE PAY VERSION?
If it's the same as with the free products, then we are at a point where i have to ask:
"If all i get is another gui, then why should i pay when i can have something free that is exactly the same or maybe even better?"
See for example Heavy Metal Pro versus Solaris Skunk Werks on the Battletech Front.
The latter is a free version that gets updates more often than i check my mail for eample. It usually is the first to implement new toys as well.
And the cease and desist orders would be applicable, because now they are in direct competition, seeing how they are the ones who got the right/license/whatever to code a generator.
Meaning you can put the stuff in there, but not explain what and how it does what it does. So people still need the books to know what to get when and why.
The generator only makes it easier to get the stuff on paper and offers a standardized character sheet which will make it easier to play together usually.
Now comes another question: How much of the Info in the Books will be allowed IN THE PAY VERSION?
If it's the same as with the free products, then we are at a point where i have to ask:
"If all i get is another gui, then why should i pay when i can have something free that is exactly the same or maybe even better?"
See for example Heavy Metal Pro versus Solaris Skunk Werks on the Battletech Front.
The latter is a free version that gets updates more often than i check my mail for eample. It usually is the first to implement new toys as well.
And the cease and desist orders would be applicable, because now they are in direct competition, seeing how they are the ones who got the right/license/whatever to code a generator.
If it does not have the option to upload house rules (increased damage values, races, modified maximums, etc.) I think many people will find its use limited. The player created version is completely modifiable as long as you understand where everything is.
Having said that if Hero Lab's version does have this ability I would use it for many of the reasons already stated above.
Having said that if Hero Lab's version does have this ability I would use it for many of the reasons already stated above.
On a legal level...
Numbers and statistics drawn out of a rulebook aren't actually "creative content", according to the law.
Descriptive passages and fluff text are. Artwork and layout design are. The book as a whole is. The numbers? Not so much.
If a generator sticks purely to information off the various charts, then it technically violates no copyright laws.
It might be in violation of trademark laws, but not copyright. Even then "fair use" statutes make the use of trademarks slightly fuzzy.
-karma
Numbers and statistics drawn out of a rulebook aren't actually "creative content", according to the law.
Descriptive passages and fluff text are. Artwork and layout design are. The book as a whole is. The numbers? Not so much.
If a generator sticks purely to information off the various charts, then it technically violates no copyright laws.
It might be in violation of trademark laws, but not copyright. Even then "fair use" statutes make the use of trademarks slightly fuzzy.
-karma
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Aug 10 2010, 11:36 PM)
My primary hope is that with an "official character generator" out there Hero Lab will be able to force clarity out of Catalyst on its many broke-ass, no-errata-having rules.
My prediction is that the software will replace the missing errata.
Eventually RAC (Rules as Coded) will replace RAW.
Looks interesting, but how about a cross platform version? I'm on a mac 90% of the time.
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 10 2010, 06:39 PM)
Does hero lab export to a text file or something that could be imported elsewhere? I'd like to revive my character record system for fourth edition, but I haven't wanted to do it until we had something from which to import that people were using, like mcmackie's old text file-based save files.
We'll be able to output a standard text "statblock" for a character, and at some point (hopefully soon) we are going to add simple XML output. The simple XML output will let you output a character to a simple XML file, which will be easy to read in with any XML-friendly programming framework.
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Aug 10 2010, 06:56 PM)
Does the character builder also include sample artwork for people who want character portraits? I've been scouring the internet looking for good artshots, pics, and images that look "Shadowrun"-ish for my character. However, finding "cyberpunk" themed fantasy characters haven't been easy.
We don't currently have any plans to source our own artwork, but we'll hopefully be able to include some of the "official" Catalyst shadowrun artwork with Hero Lab, so you'll be able to use it for your own characters.
Ok so D&D/Pathfinder/M&M I get, SR4 I get.... Savage Worlds and Cortex maybe... Call of Cthuhlu? WOD?... I don't follow why y'all have these as a pdf is all you need. Do people actually buy Herolabs for CoC or WOD? or is just an additional feature for the 3.X crowd who plays more than 3.X?
QUOTE (Abstruse @ Aug 10 2010, 07:04 PM)
I'm not speaking ill of this particular product or company as I have no experience with it or them, but in my experience, small independent software vendors aren't any better (and many times are worse) than community-based coders at releasing updates on time.
We do regular releases for the other games we support, usually monthly if not more often. These releases fix bugs, add new features and sometimes include new supplemental content for the game.
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 10 2010, 09:17 PM)
Unless things have changed from the last time I heard this as I understand it it only covers the main book at release. Once it covers the supplements I'll look into it. Without the supplements it really doesn't help me much.
The initial release will only cover the core book (technically speaking, the SR4 anniversary edition book). We'll be releasing addon packages for each of the supplements following the initial release. However, if you only use a few things from a supplement, it should be easy to add those on a temporary basis using Hero Lab's integrated editor - new weapons, cyberware, qualities, etc.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 11 2010, 12:25 AM)
How much of the Info in the Books will be allowed IN THE PAY VERSION?
If it's the same as with the free products, then we are at a point where i have to ask:
"If all i get is another gui, then why should i pay when i can have something free that is exactly the same or maybe even better?"
And the cease and desist orders would be applicable, because now they are in direct competition, seeing how they are the ones who got the right/license/whatever to code a generator.
If it's the same as with the free products, then we are at a point where i have to ask:
"If all i get is another gui, then why should i pay when i can have something free that is exactly the same or maybe even better?"
And the cease and desist orders would be applicable, because now they are in direct competition, seeing how they are the ones who got the right/license/whatever to code a generator.
Like I said before, we're not interested in shutting down any free character creators. We can use Hero Lab's infrastructure to create a tool that outdoes the free ones - there are free character creators available for the other games we support, yet people still want to use Hero Lab. Why? Because it makes character creation easier, more accurate, and provides a better user experience.
QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Aug 11 2010, 07:07 AM)
If it does not have the option to upload house rules (increased damage values, races, modified maximums, etc.) I think many people will find its use limited. The player created version is completely modifiable as long as you understand where everything is.
Having said that if Hero Lab's version does have this ability I would use it for many of the reasons already stated above.
Having said that if Hero Lab's version does have this ability I would use it for many of the reasons already stated above.
Using Hero Lab's editor, you'll be able to add new races, weapons, qualities, vehicles, and more. You can also replace existing weapons with your own versions (e.g. "In my game, the AK-97 does 8P damage instead of what the rulebook says"). Hero Lab has a powerful engine that lets you write simple scripts to make those new qualities, weapons etc affect other parts of the character when taken.
QUOTE (TheeGravedigger @ Aug 11 2010, 08:45 AM)
Looks interesting, but how about a cross platform version? I'm on a mac 90% of the time.
A Mac version is in development now, and we'll hopefully be able to release it around the same time as the Shadowrun data files (no promises, though - it's still relatively early in development). If not, Hero Lab works great under virtualization tools like Parallels or VirtualBox.
QUOTE (tete @ Aug 11 2010, 09:23 AM)
Ok so D&D/Pathfinder/M&M I get, SR4 I get.... Savage Worlds and Cortex maybe... Call of Cthuhlu? WOD?... I don't follow why y'all have these as a pdf is all you need. Do people actually buy Herolabs for CoC or WOD? or is just an additional feature for the 3.X crowd who plays more than 3.X?
Even with the relatively simple games, there's still math to keep track of, and rules you can break. Hero Lab handles both of those issues, so it still has value even for games that aren't as complex as Shadowrun / D&D / etc.
QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Aug 10 2010, 10:56 PM)
Does the character builder also include sample artwork for people who want character portraits? I've been scouring the internet looking for good artshots, pics, and images that look "Shadowrun"-ish for my character. However, finding "cyberpunk" themed fantasy characters haven't been easy.
Why not just commission this? There are any number of really good character artists on Deviantart, and commissioning -always- captures a character better than some random found picture. (And when I've seen [and myself offered] sketches as low as $3-$5 money isn't really an excuse) Plus I hear there are a couple of artists around here who are more than happy to draw character art, I believe Squinky does it for free even in his spare time.
If you're into coding, you can also add in house-ruled stuff to the games as well (something I've been doing with my Hero Labs Pathfinder). For instance, I've added in some feats and prestige classes and it's not terribly hard as long as you can follow the code.
As outdated as it is, I still use Daegann's simply for ease of use.
QUOTE (Colen @ Aug 11 2010, 10:33 AM)
A Mac version is in development now, and we'll hopefully be able to release it around the same time as the Shadowrun data files (no promises, though - it's still relatively early in development). If not, Hero Lab works great under virtualization tools like Parallels or VirtualBox.
Awesome, thanks for letting me know. I'll give it a shot under Parallels in the meantime.
So when is the projected release date? If it was mentioned I did not see it, sorry.
Java would be best to do it in, because everybody on mac, windows and linux can use it . .
QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Aug 11 2010, 11:00 AM)
So when is the projected release date? If it was mentioned I did not see it, sorry.
We haven't announced a release date yet, but we hope to release the Shadowrun data package around the end of this year / start of next year.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 11 2010, 11:01 AM)
Java would be best to do it in, because everybody on mac, windows and linux can use it . .
Hero Lab is written in C++. Java has some advantages (like being able to run on multiple platforms), but we can replicate those in C++; Hero Lab apparently runs fine on linux under Wine, and we're working on a mac port right now.
Not only that, Java has some disadvantages too; it's slower than C++, and something written in java will probably never work on the iPad. Once the mac version of Hero Lab is complete, we're going to be working on an iPad version, which will be the next best thing to playing Shadowrun while running a character creator on your commlink.
QUOTE (Colen @ Aug 11 2010, 02:19 PM)
We haven't announced a release date yet, but we hope to release the Shadowrun data package around the end of this year / start of next year.
Hero Lab is written in C++. Java has some advantages (like being able to run on multiple platforms), but we can replicate those in C++; Hero Lab apparently runs fine on linux under Wine, and we're working on a mac port right now.
Not only that, Java has some disadvantages too; it's slower than C++, and something written in java will probably never work on the iPad. Once the mac version of Hero Lab is complete, we're going to be working on an iPad version, which will be the next best thing to playing Shadowrun while running a character creator on your commlink.
Hero Lab is written in C++. Java has some advantages (like being able to run on multiple platforms), but we can replicate those in C++; Hero Lab apparently runs fine on linux under Wine, and we're working on a mac port right now.
Not only that, Java has some disadvantages too; it's slower than C++, and something written in java will probably never work on the iPad. Once the mac version of Hero Lab is complete, we're going to be working on an iPad version, which will be the next best thing to playing Shadowrun while running a character creator on your commlink.
Marry me.
*ahem* Sorry, I don't know what came over me...
"if" there was interest in doing a linux version most C++ programs are not that difficult to change. Usually just some headerfiles but maintaining the fork is probably more trouble than its worth. I love KDev though.
[edit] unless your using a windows only library like direct x
[edit] unless your using a windows only library like direct x
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Aug 11 2010, 01:07 AM)
Make your own pics with the Hero Machine!
Here's some code you can use to see chars I've made in the past.
Just click the "Load" button at the top of the options pile (near save and print and such) and paste the code in. It's not perfect, but it makes some decent stuff.
Here's some code you can use to see chars I've made in the past.
Just click the "Load" button at the top of the options pile (near save and print and such) and paste the code in. It's not perfect, but it makes some decent stuff.
I have used hero machine. As you said, it's not perfect. My main issue with it is the lack of weapons and the clothing styles.
As for comissioning some work.. sure, I don't mind it, but I like to talk to teh artist in person and go voer teh sketch together, so it captures what I see in my head when it comes to the character.
Well there's always conventions in that case, -or- catching someone doing commissions over livestream, which effectively works the same way (Although personally I have never had a problem with giving a -good- description, then doing the sketch-approval method.)
(Although personally I have never had a problem with giving a -good- description, then doing the sketch-approval method.)
I'm not particularly impressed by Lone Wolf because of the false impression they created back with the Army Builder software that I bought years ago. There was next to no support for it and the instructions for coding it were byzantine and nigh-unreadable for someone without a degree in computer programming - definitely not the easy to use product that they claimed. Once burned, twice shy.
QUOTE (Terminax @ Aug 11 2010, 04:29 PM)
I'm not particularly impressed by Lone Wolf because of the false impression they created back with the Army Builder software that I bought years ago. There was next to no support for it and the instructions for coding it were byzantine and nigh-unreadable for someone without a degree in computer programming - definitely not the easy to use product that they claimed. Once burned, twice shy.
We offer free demos of all our products - you're welcome to download and try them out with full functionality, other than being able to save or print (and you can still print preview, to see what the printed output looks like). Once you're confident that you like the product, you can make a purchase.
We've also had many, many people compliment us on how easy to use our products are compared to other tools. Adding your own content is always going to be more complex than simply using what's already there, but you can try all that out before you buy.
Finally, we also offer a no-questions-asked refund within 60 days of purchase, in case you buy it and discover you don't like it. Of course we can't please everybody, but I don't know how we could make it easier to try our products before you shell out money for them.
Will you include documentation of cases where RAW is confusing and you had to pick one interpretation over another?
Yeah, I still feel like there is going to have to be some situation where the rule-pope comes out and interprets the gospel for us.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 12 2010, 12:55 AM)
Will you include documentation of cases where RAW is confusing and you had to pick one interpretation over another?
Generally in those situations we'd email Catalyst and ask "Hey guys, how does this work?" to get a final answer on how Hero Lab should handle it. If necessary, we can include notes about any contentious stuff in the data file FAQ, so that if people complain we have somewhere to point them.
QUOTE (Colen @ Aug 12 2010, 01:53 PM)
Generally in those situations we'd email Catalyst and ask "Hey guys, how does this work?"
Uh, aheh, I'll just say, good luck with that.
-karma
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Aug 11 2010, 12:45 PM)
Why not just commission this? There are any number of really good character artists on Deviantart, and commissioning -always- captures a character better than some random found picture. (And when I've seen [and myself offered] sketches as low as $3-$5 money isn't really an excuse) Plus I hear there are a couple of artists around here who are more than happy to draw character art, I believe Squinky does it for free even in his spare time.
Anime conventions, if you're into that normally have tons of starving artists. I got a professional to do my Exalted character as a bust for a mere 15$
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.