Ugh, let's not do *that*. As if it mattered.

Yeah. SR and realistic combat don't share much common ground, so let's RL examples ouf ot this discussion (in fact, any discussion about SR combat).

Yet, for some reason this whole discussion has left SR completely. It's like a group of pyschopaths stroking their egos

Except.... I can't find any records indicating that Christopher Lee was in the SAS. I can find records that he was in the RAF though...

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That's just a tad macabre.

And not relevant for dumpshock.com.

Although Kruger is being all "I R smurtr than u, cuz killing someone for realz iz way diffrnt than in theory!!! lol!!!!"

No need to bring that up in public, ok? We all know that there's a huge difference between combat as presented in SR (and its rules) and IRL. We also know that a couple of posters have a military background, but it is not relevant to any discussion here at dumpshock.com if and how many people someones has beaten, hurt or even killed IRL.

That's not what I was being at all...

I was just commenting about how funny it is for people to discuss the best ways of doing things they've obviously never done.

Of all the topics I have a lot of applicable knowledge on (I'm sorry if I've had a wide range of experience and education?), you'll never find me in any thread commenting on the best ways to kill people or whether or not I've done it. I might discuss the intricacies of firearms marksmanship and practical weapons usage (I was a school trained Marine Corps weapons instructor (and instructor of instructors) for multiple systems), but that's more in the application of practical knowledge for gamers and other enthusiasts. This isn't some kind of "Nyah nyah, I know more than you kind of thing". Maybe I do know more than you. Maybe I don't. I don't know how much you don't know. I do know I'll never brag about anything I know in regards to killing other human beings. But it is pretty easy to spot the fakers, and it is funny, even if in a rather pathetic and sad way. Maybe I just have a morbid sense of humor.

Oh, and Sigma, Lee wasn't SAS. He was apparently Special Operations Executive, and unconventional warfare unit that existed during WW2. I can't confirm or deny that, but that is what he said himself.

Funny. I thought my posting was clear. And in english.

My apologies Kruger.

Special Operations Executive, isn't that the guys they kept sending into occupied territory and ebhind enemy lines? My grandfather was Maquis. To this day I can't get him to really talk about it (and He's 90 years old) he just closes his eyes and says, "I was just in it so me and grandma would have a way out of occupied france if we needed it." Which, from the things he's accidentally let slip before. Is a complete lie.

I remember reading an article once, written by a writer in the mid 80's who was talking about when he was a junior beat reporter in the 60's. He talked about how the serior reporter was a WW2 combat vet with a silver star, who had been at the Battle of the Bulge, and that for a time, chances were good that a man of a certain age (probably 40's in the 60's) was very likely to be a combat veteran who had seen really serious combat. It was a really interesting article.

Nope you wont... Initiation grade is limited to magic attribute rating.

If they lower your magic you wont be able to initiate past 1... wich you already do to reach 7.

Magic 10 Initiate rank 4 that lose 6 points of magic due to essence is down to Magic 4 Initiate rank 4 and no way to up it anymore by initiating.

I still find Essence Drain to be the most broken irritating thing in the game. I'd much rather get killed, than have a character's essence drained. For mages, its' congrats, the GM just permanently handicapped your character. For Sams it's congrats.. You just lost 1/6th or more of your potential.. oh and you're probably dead from 1 touch attack.

As long as its affecting most runners equally, its hardly broken.

TAre there many runners who hit the shadows with neither cyberware or magic?

Do you mean runners that have 6 essence and no magic ability or do you mean runners with no magic ability and exclusively utilize bioware/genetech and avoid cyberware/nanotech?

I mean runners for whom some essesnce loss would be no big deal, for whatever reason. So those that are not overburdened with installed cyber/bio gear, AND who don't need it for magic.

Yeah, hacker/riggers. That job has a limited amount of stuff you can cram into your head, and doesn't benefit much from magic > 3.

My Hacker found a use for Melee.

It's hard to jack a car after you've been blown out of a prison bus when all you have is an orange jumpsuit that says "Property of Lone Star" on your chest and hoop.

Jump in front of the car and scream "If you hit me they'll sue!"
I always thought legal charges for injuring wageslave's was something around 98% 'Damaging CorpX property' and 2% 'I dunno, he has rights or something..'

Bubba the Love Troll must have a huge debt piled up then.

Who, come to think of it, is another reason to have Melee skills!

To prevent getting surprise sexed from behind by Bubba the love troll? Yes, that is in excellent reason to have a melee skill (and shock gloves and a backpack full of freeze foam).

I'd also point out that there will come a time in a game when you might want to punch a dude out for dramatic effect, put them in a headlock, whatever... It isn't quiet as dramatic when you critically glitch your defaulted melee attack and end up slapping yourself or punching like a 6 year old.

Hey! My six year old has a mean right hook

From what I've seen melee beats ranged in the following situations:

1. Suprise attack from bubba the love troll.
2. Fighting in a confined space, like and 8'X8' cell.
3. Unarmed combat is great since you only need your hands/feet (nothing to hide-suprise!).
4. It is just cool to duke it out Mano a Mano (style).
5. You're out of ammo.

Personally I've always wanted to see someone build a jiujitsu master grappler character... with hydraulic cyberarms (I think they're called hydraulic jacks but I can't recall). It isn't the fastest way to off someone but it certainly is effective.

I was musing about fighting styles specifically geared towards handling people who encase themselves in armor and other common defensive measures. Does grappling subdual damage bypass armor?

You'd think there'd be new fighting styles *for* people wearing/made of armor.

Are you perhaps speaking about armor piercing jiu jitsu (I fail because I can't find the relevant Schlock Mercenary panel)

It doesn't bypass armor, but it does up the DV a significant amount compared to a basic attack (as it's impossible to avoid, and uses Str rather than Str/2), so it's a lot more effective against someone wearing armor.

Hmm. It's a solution, but not really what I was looking for. I was thinking about making a "specialist", who gets hired to deal with people so well-protected that conventional attacks are pointless. Instead of trying to beat armor, use some lateral attack. Preferably non-magical; to be effective at killing mages.

I wonder if you could use the hydraulic jack a la "Big O" style on someone after making a successful grapple/subdual test.

You can, and it does a bunch of unresisted damage.

Someone posted that Attackers with Ranged weapons who get caught in melee suffer a -3 penalty. I had forgotten about that, but it seems to me if someone with a pistol gets the same penalty as someone with an assault cannon in melee doesn't sit comfy with me. As I proposed a long time ago, a nice possible change could be adding the weapon's concealability or size modifier so the smaller/easier the weapon, the easier it is to handle when that unexpected Hand-to-Hand/Melee event comes up in combat.

Just a thought.

Harden the assault cannon, and use it as a club!

Bumping this thread to get something clarified:

From Ranged Combat Modifier Table, p152 SR4A.

* Attacker in melee combat –3
* Target point-blank +2

Does this mean that the shooting penalty for firing at a melee opponent is only -1? Or is RAI for the +2 only for "execution" type situations?

Thinking in terms of action movie moments, the "melee to get control of a firearm" situations, generally speaking ,the guy with the gun is at a much more significant disadvantage than a SR -1 DP modifier would imply.

If they're at point-blank range, yes. The rules state that Target at Point-Blank can be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat condition in the Ranged Combat section. I know that sounds like something that could have been rolled into a single situational penalty rather than a situational bonus and a situational penalty added together, but it is important to remember that it is entirely possible that the person you're trying to shoot isn't necessarily the same person who is trying to punch your lights out. Trying to shoot a corporate executive who's running down the hallway while his cybered bodyguard is trying to bash your face in with his extendable baton is quite the trick, after all, and in that case you're taking a -3 plus range and moving target penalties.

It also needs to be 2 different situational modifiers becouse there are ways to migitate or even completdly nullify the penalty, leaving you with +2 dice bonus to shoot the target thats no futher then 1m away from you.

Actually I would love to see a Gun Fu Maneuver that all it did was remove the penalty for being in melee range and shooting.

You mean like Firefight's advantage?

Yeah, a combination of Firefight and Krav can let you negate it entirely. There's other advantages I'd jump on first, but there really isn't anything stopping you from busting out your best Grammaton Cleric impression if you want to build that way.

That's a hydraulic press and it "pinches" for 10P -4AP after subduing and spending a complex action. I want a jack that goes thru the arm so I can grab a guy by the face, lift him up, and have the jack go out the back of my elbow and then straight back towards his face. I suppose I could make up rules for it pretty easily though

If it shot a bunch of steel cables into his head it'd be even more screen accurate.





-karma

Heh, I'm glad someone gets me. Plus, think of the intimidation factor!

A while back someone suggested that instead of using the Attacker in Melee penalty modifier to gunfire, you could let people in melee range use melee defense (Reaction+Skill or Reaction+Skill+Skill on full defense) instead of the ranged defense (Reaction or Reaction+Dodge on full defense). It would make some sense I'd think.. It also means that melee skills would be a serious assets in CQC even for a gunfighter (also, gun hardening!)

Under our current reading of the rules, I only give that +2 point blank modifier if the attacker isn't in melee... that is, he's right next to/standing above someone who *isn't* attacking him, and is putting a round into the guy.

I like Ascalaphus' suggestion of using melee defense against gunfire at melee ranges, though... I might stick with what seems to be RAW (point blank + in melee works out to all of -1) and allow melee defense instead. Plus, the Firefight martial art advantage has that work out as a +1 (+2 with Krav Maga on top of that).

It seems like there's 2 separate things that are both being discussed. One is "why should I learn to fight with and use a katana, when an assault rifle is better" and one is "what is Unarmed Combat" good for. This might be good to keep in mind; I don't think there's really a good reason to use something like a katana, honestly.

If you want Unarmed Combat attacks that bypass armor, either Sonic Sheath (the spell) or Sonic Attack (or whatever the adept power is called) will do that, although they won't hurt anything that doesn't have a Stun monitor. You can get various other elemental effects that do Physical vs. half impact instead, though.

Or, for the mundanes, there are always stun batons.

The katana, and other melee weapons, are a pink mohawk element. People use them because they can imagine a character leaping and diving and slicing and such. And probably not what would actually happen: them getting shot over and over and over before they even covered the distance. Or, the only slightly less likely scenario where someone sneaks around with three and a half feet of steel in hand and quietly assassinating their enemies ninja style. But, again, it all depends on the style of campaign the GM is running.

In a typical game though, the melee specialist is probably going to be at a disadvantage in conventional combat. And I don't think there is any way, or any need for that matter, to try and balance it out.

That's actually another elegant way to fix it. The end result in my opinion should be that you need melee skills for when you bump into enemies in close quarters, which should be happening now and then on infiltration missions.



Well, there is your aforementioned Pink Mohawk element. It'd be nice to have a coherent set of optional rules that you could toggle on and off to slant your rules to favor Pink Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat.

I guess one minor point in favour of melee, going back to one of the archetypes of cyberpunk:

At the beginning of Neuromancer, Case couldn't afford a gun.

***

Also, melee has its place in the slum-apartments of narrow cluttered winding alleyways or corridor, where it becomes almost impossible to hold LOS on a fleeing target. And also, a stray sword shot won't punch through 3 plasterboard walls and kill the single mother of three whilst she's preparing the kids soy-flakes.

Yeah, but in SR, a decent melee weapon is more expensive than a decent revolver.

If you can't hold LOS, you probably also can't really hit with a blade. But your point about collateral damage is a good one. Unintended wall-perforations are something to keep in mind as an evil GM. *cackle*

Ooo, too bad the local Triad boss' niece lived next door to your firefight...

Doesn't even need to be someone important.

A really cheesed off person who just lost the last member of their family, and found out that Lone Star is only going to dedicate a Detective to the case for 2.7 minutes to find out who it was...

Easy enough to snap, liquidate whatever assets, hire some PIs, buy a firearm, and a lot of ammo.

A whole lot of ammo.