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Stormdrake
Have been dealing with this for some time and it just seems way overpowered. The caster fires off a direct spell, gets to bypass all armor and the target gets to roll only their willpower (plus any counter spelling). This useally eends up with a dead oppenent. The only way around this I have found is that the caster needs to be able to "see" the target (the flesh, not an armored suit).

Am I reading that correctly though? If the target is in armor with no visible organics (Face plate is mirrored) does that trump direct spells?
Shinobi Killfist
Well there are all the other casting modifiers that can come into play, visibility, cover etc. But yes you have the general idea on how it works.

My general opinion is yes they are overpowered but not by much, overcasting is what breaks them and the rest of magic. In 2e for example you had to pick the force of the spell to learn it at and unless you picked a whopper of a spell it usually started at M or S damage. Otherwise it basically worked the same, the person rolled willpower, you rolled your dice, if you got more hits they were damaged. If you were not saving dice for counterspelling and drain odds are you killed them so the end result was similar but less guaranteed. Combat spells have always been powerful SR3 and 4 they are probably at there most powerful point since you can on the fly pick the damage.
Runner Smurf
Nope, armor doesn't trump spells. One of the old magic books specifically addressed this, saying that the aura of a person actually extends several inches beyond their body, allowing it to be targeted by a spell. Being in a vehicle with heavily tinted/one-way windows is effective, but armor isn't.

On the other hand, the line between body-armor and a powered exoskeleton vehicle shell actually is a bit iffy. By the magic theory given in Shadowrun, if the armor was thick enough, the aura would be concealed. Your call as a GM where you draw the line, but my preference would be to say if that it's built with the armor rules, you can be targeted by a spell. If it's built with the vehicle rules, then you may be protected.

Of course, you aren't protected from a Wreck Vehicle spell...but you are always vulnerable to something.

As for Direct Spells being overpowered...that's a matter of extensive debate. But there is a reason that every team wants a mage on hand with good Counterspelling, and that one of SR's rules of combat is "Geek the mage first."
TommyTwoToes
Correct, overcasting is the issue. I recommend using the optional rule for increasing the drain of direct combat spells by 1 for each hit applied to increasing the damage. This helps bring the damage down to weapon damage ranges but does not eliminate the benefit of only 1 roll to stop the hurt.
DireRadiant
Always fun.

p. 160 SM "Note that full body
armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them
from being targeted."

The counter to all magic is "Geek the mage"

In this case, make sure to apply all cover modifiers. While a full body suit won't prevent targeting, I'm sure it might give some cover.
yesferatu
It really depends on the target, let's assume they don't have counterspelling.
If you're casting a direct physical spell, you're rolling against body, which can sometimes be as many as 15 dice.
If you're casting a direct mana spell, yes, willpower isn't very many resist dice.

Without overcasting, at 6 magic /6 spellcasting you're rolling 12 dice on a mana spell.
At like 30% success rate, you're looking at like 3/4 hits vs. their willpower roll.
So blah blah blah...if your target doesn't resist anything, you can potentially do like 10-12 stun, which will probably knock out most targets.
Then you have to roll your drain, which can also go badly for you.
If you overcast, yes you can do even more, but you can also potentially kill yourself with drain.

I think the limiting factor on magic is obviously is the drain.
No other character can wound/kill themselves with their own primary attack.

If your spellcasters are overpowered, use the net hits optional rule which increases the drain by 1 for each net hit.
Mages are a lot less likely to overcast to 12 when they'll be soaking potentially 12 additional physical drain.





Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 20 2010, 12:19 PM) *
Correct, overcasting is the issue. I recommend using the optional rule for increasing the drain of direct combat spells by 1 for each hit applied to increasing the damage. This helps bring the damage down to weapon damage ranges but does not eliminate the benefit of only 1 roll to stop the hurt.


The problem with the optional rule is it is net hits that increase the drain and you can control how many net hits you have. So you always go with 1 net hit and force 9+spells(ok always odd level since you round down on drain).

Personally I wish the optional rule was add 1 to the drain for every 2 force the spell exceeds your magic. But I really wish they had changed the drain formulas entirely to F instead of F/2 maybe change the modifiers a bit so a fireball isn't F+5 but F+3 or somethings.
Kyrel
In my personal opinion, you are right that Direct spells are overpowered Stormdrake.

I've debated the issue of Direct spells with some friends before, and some of us agree that some sort of "nerf" is needed, while others disagree. Me personally, I belong to the crowd that believe that some sort of limiter is needed. Two options we've debated, but not tested, is:

A) For every beginning two points your Essence is below 6, you get a point of Counterspelling to defend against Direct spells. I.e. With an Essence of 1,3 you'd get +3 dice to defend against Direct type spells.
or
B) A mage casting a Direct spell must beat the same threadshold, as if he was trying to use a Heal spell on the same character.

My gaming group has arguments for and against all options as well as the need for a nerf or not.
X-Kalibur
Actually, I really like the sound of option B. It's interesting and original.
Stormdrake
I was thinking of the Military armor which shows as being pretty bulky and encloes the wearer. Can you tell me the page were it sasy that the aura extends out? The reason I ask is that according to the rules on barriers a caster can not see through any wall to shoot at a target on the otherside. Having done construction some walls are pretty flimsy when compared to the armor that is available in Shadowrun.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Aug 20 2010, 01:35 PM) *
I was thinking of the Military armor which shows as being pretty bulky and encloes the wearer. Can you tell me the page were it sasy that the aura extends out? The reason I ask is that according to the rules on barriers a caster can not see through any wall to shoot at a target on the otherside. Having done construction some walls are pretty flimsy when compared to the armor that is available in Shadowrun.



There is no rule, its fluff to explain why clothes don't stop a mana bolt. I wear a robe game balance wise is not a good way to stop all direct combat spells. They give no exceptions like for really bulky armor to the rule that direct combat spells ignore armor. Back in SR2 I think military grade armor provided some kind of defense against direct combat spells, but that may have been a house rule. Personally I'd have no problem with a ruling that said military grade full armor was more on the vehicle scale of bulk and people wearing it could not be targeted by direct combat spells and other spells that required similar LOS like mind control spells. It would be a nice perk countering some of the form fitting stacking silliness getting close to the same protection.
Jaid
in general, it's not hard for *anyone* to one-shot *anyone* in shadowrun unless it's an exceptional challenge. yes, power bolt is scary. but then again, full auto suppressed gunfire is scary too. taking 14P damage from an ares alpha is not particularly likely to leave the target standing, and if you start using stuff like stick-n-shock, or most of the drugs available to be used (capsule rounds or gas grenades) or similar, you end up with pretty much everyone being able to take out opponents in a single shot pretty easily. heck, some of the non-magical methods are simple actions so you can use them twice per IP whereas the magician only gets one per IP.

in any case, don't forget to apply modifiers to the magician's dicepool... visibility modifiers will lower the dice pool, for example, so have security use smoke grenades, take cover, use lighting conditions that favor the security forces, use flashpaks, etc. in fact, if the magician can't see you, he can't target you, so if you want to challenge the magician i bet he doesn't have a particularly amazing perception dice pool. if you have something that is hidden, he won't be able to even try to attack it. (note: you should still be using all those vision-modifying effects, like crappy lighting, smoke/thermal smoke grenades, flashpaks, etc, so that the magician's perception DP is low. that way you don't have to put security guards with 6 points of skill in infiltration, just having a dp of 1(+2 specialisation) as part of their security training.

but with a little work, you should be able to easily drop the magician's dicepool for perception (-2 if they don't spend a simple action for observing in detail, -2 or more for thermal smoke, an additional -2 if they're trying to perceive something not in the immediate vicinity, an additional -2 if there's something interfering with their sight, which i would apply if it was both dim light and smoky, and you've already got -8 to the magician's DP. if you figure they could reasonably have a spirit for support, you could even give them concealment at 3-4 dice without straining realism. you could also give them a spirit that has magical guard, mind you...)

and if the magician can't beat it's infiltration skill on a perception(visual) check, then the magician can't even attack. even if he does spot them, his dicepool will be suffering, which makes it harder to just instantly drop people.
killfr3nzy
Simple answer - have a Biofiber Layer in your armour. It would only work for things that covered you fairly extensively, and probably only in things like Riot Armour upwards for the semi-solid form.

Also, Mages can only attack what they can see - so don't stand in the open. You shouldn't be, in any case - fullauto will get you just as dead.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Something that has always bugged me. Can you cast a spell on someone behind a glass wall?
You can't see the target's aura, but you can see it.
Runner Smurf
I think one of the old magic books talked about the glass thing - actually, SR2 (pg. 130). Basically, you can target anything you can see directly, without the image being translated into another medium. As long as the image is only optically modified (like with glass binoculars) you can target it. It specifically says "transparent glass is no hindrance," and you can even target things that you are seeing reflected in mirrors.

I've always understood that you can also target astral entities if you can see them when perceiving astrally, in which case glass does block your line of sight.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Runner Smurf @ Aug 20 2010, 05:42 PM) *
I think one of the old magic books talked about the glass thing - actually, SR2 (pg. 130). Basically, you can target anything you can see directly, without the image being translated into another medium. As long as the image is only optically modified (like with glass binoculars) you can target it. It specifically says "transparent glass is no hindrance," and you can even target things that you are seeing reflected in mirrors.

I've always understood that you can also target astral entities if you can see them when perceiving astrally, in which case glass does block your line of sight.


In that case, there is really no reason why you can't target someone inside a military-grade armor. NOW, if someone was literally piloting a humanoid "armor" instead of "wearing" it then the magician really can't see the pilot inside of the vehicle.
Eugene
I think a lot of the complaints come down to the fact that it's hard to build a high Willpower character.
tagz
Now, I don't know where we're getting this whole "Targeting the Aura" thing.

Unless I've missed something fundamental about the magic rules you can never target an Aura (SR4 p183). You target either a physical object (car, dog, rock, person, etc) or in the astral you target a Astral Form. You can however use an Aura as a targeting POINT.

Seeing the aura on the physical plane allows you to hit a person through their armor? First off, your aura exists on the astral and not the physical plane. Second, that would mean that casting Ignite or any other direct spell wouldn't work on any non-living (no aura) thing.

No, the ruling is that "full body armor does not "conceal" the person within and prevent them from being targeted." That just means armor doesn't stop LOS casting, it doesn't mean jack all about Auras.

I get some people are using the Aura bleedout effect as a fluff explanation, but it fails against the RAW and other fluff concepts. Personally I like the idea that it's more a matter of establishing a magical link to the object in question.


So targeting through glass is fine. Seeing the aura on the physical plane (impossible) was never a factor in spellcasting.
Chance359
I really like the idea of a layer of bio fiber providing its force in armor against all spells targeting the wearer (friendly ones included).
Mordinvan
QUOTE (TommyTwoToes @ Aug 20 2010, 10:19 AM) *
Correct, overcasting is the issue. I recommend using the optional rule for increasing the drain of direct combat spells by 1 for each hit applied to increasing the damage. This helps bring the damage down to weapon damage ranges but does not eliminate the benefit of only 1 roll to stop the hurt.

And it introduces a mechanic of harming the mage for being good at his job.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 20 2010, 10:28 AM) *
The problem with the optional rule is it is net hits that increase the drain and you can control how many net hits you have. So you always go with 1 net hit and force 9+spells(ok always odd level since you round down on drain).

Personally I wish the optional rule was add 1 to the drain for every 2 force the spell exceeds your magic. But I really wish they had changed the drain formulas entirely to F instead of F/2 maybe change the modifiers a bit so a fireball isn't F+5 but F+3 or somethings.

so 9 drain to the mage for throwing a force 6 fire ball? I think that's a little steep don't you? Would you KO a sammy for tossing a weaker then normal grenade?
X-Kalibur
You do realize that currently at F/2 + 5 you're taking 8 drain for that same F6 fireball, right? The idea is to start penalizing with higher drain values over Force 6, but in order to balance out lower force spells, you'd need to change their static modifier.

<edit> of course, most of us know it isn't elemental effects that people think are overpowered at all.
Most of us look at 1 spell throughout all editions - stunbolt. Currently F/2 - 1 drain means at F7 you're only needing 2 hits to negate all drain. Also, night night for the target.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 20 2010, 12:46 PM) *
in general, it's not hard for *anyone* to one-shot *anyone* in shadowrun unless it's an exceptional challenge. yes, power bolt is scary. but then again, full auto suppressed gunfire is scary too. taking 14P damage from an ares alpha is not particularly likely to leave the target standing, and if you start using stuff like stick-n-shock, or most of the drugs available to be used (capsule rounds or gas grenades) or similar, you end up with pretty much everyone being able to take out opponents in a single shot pretty easily. heck, some of the non-magical methods are simple actions so you can use them twice per IP whereas the magician only gets one per IP.

in any case, don't forget to apply modifiers to the magician's dicepool... visibility modifiers will lower the dice pool, for example, so have security use smoke grenades, take cover, use lighting conditions that favor the security forces, use flashpaks, etc. in fact, if the magician can't see you, he can't target you, so if you want to challenge the magician i bet he doesn't have a particularly amazing perception dice pool. if you have something that is hidden, he won't be able to even try to attack it. (note: you should still be using all those vision-modifying effects, like crappy lighting, smoke/thermal smoke grenades, flashpaks, etc, so that the magician's perception DP is low. that way you don't have to put security guards with 6 points of skill in infiltration, just having a dp of 1(+2 specialisation) as part of their security training.

but with a little work, you should be able to easily drop the magician's dicepool for perception (-2 if they don't spend a simple action for observing in detail, -2 or more for thermal smoke, an additional -2 if they're trying to perceive something not in the immediate vicinity, an additional -2 if there's something interfering with their sight, which i would apply if it was both dim light and smoky, and you've already got -8 to the magician's DP. if you figure they could reasonably have a spirit for support, you could even give them concealment at 3-4 dice without straining realism. you could also give them a spirit that has magical guard, mind you...)

and if the magician can't beat it's infiltration skill on a perception(visual) check, then the magician can't even attack. even if he does spot them, his dicepool will be suffering, which makes it harder to just instantly drop people.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that not observing in detail negatively impacts spell casting...
edit:
and all that smoke and flashpack nonsense mean nothing to an astrally perceiving mage.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Aug 20 2010, 03:47 PM) *
I really like the idea of a layer of bio fiber providing its force in armor against all spells targeting the wearer (friendly ones included).

Biofiber wouldn't work, but there are some atral hazing lilies that should do the trick if you could G.E. some algae to do the trick.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 20 2010, 03:00 PM) *
I'm not sure where you get the idea that not observing in detail negatively impacts spell casting...
edit:
and all that smoke and flashpack nonsense mean nothing to an astrally perceiving mage.


That same mage is now also completely open to attacks from the Astral as well. And given how fast astral travel is a security mage from another complex could come flying in at you sideways while you're taking out guards and blast you with mana spells.
killfr3nzy
@Mordinvan: Biofiber Layer - If a spell is cast at a target behind a mana barrier, the Force of the barrier is added to the target’s normal resistance test.

About 'shooting' through glass: I'm pretty sure it specifically mentions that most glass is Electrochromatic, thus in many instances unless you have surprise on a sight-seeing target. Honestly though, I don't see why any halfway-secure area/locale even has windows. Just have a wall, embedded with 1+ RFID Sensors, and AR'd to the opposite side.
I'm completely certain it's true, but where does it say that glass becomes a wall in Astral? Sure surprised the hell out of me when I first heard about it.
tete
For some reason I thought you still got your Body roll, just like the old days. No armor but body can still roll it down. Could be wrong smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2010, 05:58 PM) *
You do realize that currently at F/2 + 5 you're taking 8 drain for that same F6 fireball, right? The idea is to start penalizing with higher drain values over Force 6, but in order to balance out lower force spells, you'd need to change their static modifier.

<edit> of course, most of us know it isn't elemental effects that people think are overpowered at all.
Most of us look at 1 spell throughout all editions - stunbolt. Currently F/2 - 1 drain means at F7 you're only needing 2 hits to negate all drain. Also, night night for the target.


Exactly. If I recall correctly if you took 3 off the modifier part and made it F instead of F/2, the drain would be equal to or less than current drain up to force 6, past force 6 it hurts more. With my example of 2 off it is equal or less than current drain up to force 5. Force 6 and higher costs more drain than currently. Testing would have to be done to see what balances it better.

edit to add: Also I'd remove the distinction in drain for mana and stun spells. They have as many advantages as disadvantages they don't need to be less in drain. Though I guess it helps with the flavor of the game to keep flashy spells hard to deal with.
Badmoodguy88
You need to make sure that F+-modifiers and not f/2+-modifiers does not make multicasting a tun of spells possible.

It is fairly balanced now, I think it sounds like to much of a headache to change.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Eugene @ Aug 20 2010, 12:54 PM) *
I think a lot of the complaints come down to the fact that it's hard to build a high Willpower character.


Or, really, it's that, in order to be covered properly, you've got to pump both your body and willpower. It's just another stat that a growing sam needs to beef.

Whenever someone says "You can shoot someone for 14P too" that's countered by "yeah and they can resist with basically Body x3 and more character types start with beefy bodies than willpower" which is totally true. Except for AP and yadda yadda.

Anyway, any Sam really worried about his lack of counterspelling backup can make the Surge investment in Arcane Arrester and Astral Hazing. Now, when a guy wants to cast a spell at him, they have to resist an additional +2DV for casting into a r4 background count and their spells Force is halved. So, a guy casts a lvl 12 Stunbolt (assuming the BC doesn't get in the way) and has to resist 6p damage from the casting while the guy being targeted takes 6s + net hits.

It still puts the Sam at a disadvantage, but it helps.
Glyph
The flaws of the optional rule were brought out when it was first introduced - which led to it becoming an optional rule. It didn't bring any balance to spellcasting - it actually encouraged overcasting.

I don't personally think direct combat spells are broken (even though we seem to get an "Are direct combat spells broken?" thread every month), but if you feel compelled to "fix" them, a house rule I proposed is that, for overcasting (which is really where you will see all of the potential abuse), increase the Drain by 1 for every point the spell's Force exceeds the caster's Magic, instead of the usual Force/2. That way, you don't gimp regular spellcasting, and overcasting goes back to how it should be - something you do when you are desperate and really need to take a target down, rather than something you do all the time.

Also, whether you agree with the FAQ or not, their interpretation of splitting dice pools will curb the worst abuses of multicasting. If you let a mage with a spellcasting specialization, a mentor spirit bonus, and a Force: 4 power focus add those 8 dice to every casting, rather than requiring them to be split with the rest of the dice pool, then obviously multicasting can quickly get out of hand.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2010, 04:07 PM) *
That same mage is now also completely open to attacks from the Astral as well. And given how fast astral travel is a security mage from another complex could come flying in at you sideways while you're taking out guards and blast you with mana spells.

I didn't say there were no draw backs to doing this, but it will do as I said, and eliminate problems from smoke, and flashpacks.
Mongoose
Since overcasting seems a (big?) part of the problem, how about limiting it? Maybe by restricting it to ritual magic, say? That way its not getting tossed off in combat, but if somebody needs to whip off a killer spell and has a fair bit of time, they can do so. Seems fitting fluff wise; quick spellcasting should only be able to tap surface reserves of energy (limited by magi rating). On the other hand, the Great Ghost Dance was a ritual which caused deadly physical drain... and produced much bigger effects.
Could do the same to limit spirit force (IE, make it take much longer to do a summoning if going over magic rating).
Mordinvan
QUOTE (killfr3nzy @ Aug 20 2010, 04:33 PM) *
@Mordinvan: Biofiber Layer - If a spell is cast at a target behind a mana barrier, the Force of the barrier is added to the target’s normal resistance test.

Problem is biofiber doesn't is very fragile last I checked. Also if made at the armor/clothing scale, your aura will shine through it, meaning it won't provide enough concealment to have the desired effect, atleast as far as I understand.
Redcrow
I'd like to see the whole SR magic system revamped instead of just the few minor tweaks here and there it has received from one edition to the next. The 4e system is basically the same as the 2e and 3e version and while a few minor changes have been made it hasn't really "matured" in the way I would expect from an rpg as old as SR. Hopefully if a 5e ever comes about the designers won't feel as obligated to adhere so stringently to past works as the authors of previous editions have and will allow the system to grow and mature in a way that better suits the game.
Voran
Quick question, in SR4 can you 'sleep spell' someone to death? casting a sleep spell/stunbolt on someone already ko'd from stunbolt? does it cause physical dmg overflow?
Surukai
Two things.

Swap the penalty for indirect with direct ones, instead of that crippling +2 for "elemental effect" that is just crap, add +2 for "ignores all armor AND damage resistance". (And remove the totally uncalled for discount for stun damage since stun is clearly superior since NOONE has more stun boxes than physical boxes and a sleeping target can be interrogated, killed later and even left alive for less vengeance/murder charges whatnot)

This makes stunball a more balanced f/2 +4 and a fireball just f/2 +3.


Since everyone and their father have at least 6 reaction with their Initiative passes enhancing method of choice and Body * 3 damage resistance, body * 2 for elemental though but it is piss easy to have +6 against fire, acid, lightning and cold modded into your armor but even without you will take far less damage from that pathetic fireball than you get from free win stunballs smile.gif
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 21 2010, 01:06 AM) *
Quick question, in SR4 can you 'sleep spell' someone to death? casting a sleep spell/stunbolt on someone already ko'd from stunbolt? does it cause physical dmg overflow?



I don't see why you'd need to. It's not like they can fight back...
Voran
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Aug 21 2010, 04:14 AM) *
I don't see why you'd need to. It's not like they can fight back...


Largely I think it would be important in case of dudes with Pain Editors on. You stunbolt them, but they don't ko when stun boxes are full. But then does sleep spell/stunbolt then roll into physical dmg if you cast it on them again?
killfr3nzy
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 21 2010, 11:07 AM) *
Problem is biofiber doesn't is very fragile last I checked. Also if made at the armor/clothing scale, your aura will shine through it, meaning it won't provide enough concealment to have the desired effect, atleast as far as I understand.

The rules and fluff of Biofiber are very sperate. Fluff indicates it as sheets of fragile wood, grown into large sheets, requiring constant monitoring and feeding with complex nutrients. Rules just leave it as a mobile, regenerating Ward that dies if it goes down - while being cheap as hell. It can be grown in different Force-strengths, but doesn't give any indication of why/how - is it thicker? Less fragile?
My thinking was to spend say 1kY/Force as a modification that could only added to relatively 'hard-bodied' armour. This would cover the insertion/addition of a new layer in the armour, consisting of a thin metal shell around each piece of Biofiber, sitting in a (possibly oxygen-less, as that makes it more dense) impact gel. The encased biofiber would be hooked up to a very small, high-rating Respirator that leads outside the armour, with a link to the Suit's oxygen tank (if utilized) for high-pollution situations.

Ergo, Physical Spells would be handled as normal, while Mana spells and Assensing would treat the armour as a Force X Mana Barrier, and follow all those rules. Of course, you'd have to target the barrier directly - and thus probably kill it faster - because of the 'mystic link' required to target something.

Does all that make sense, at least by my understanding of the rules? I understand if yours is different, but I'd like to be sure this works by internal logic first.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Surukai @ Aug 21 2010, 02:09 AM) *
Two things.

Swap the penalty for indirect with direct ones, instead of that crippling +2 for "elemental effect" that is just crap, add +2 for "ignores all armor AND damage resistance". (And remove the totally uncalled for discount for stun damage since stun is clearly superior since NOONE has more stun boxes than physical boxes and a sleeping target can be interrogated, killed later and even left alive for less vengeance/murder charges whatnot)


Ummm.. I have several Characters with More Stun Boxes than Physical... wobble.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 21 2010, 02:32 AM) *
Largely I think it would be important in case of dudes with Pain Editors on. You stunbolt them, but they don't ko when stun boxes are full. But then does sleep spell/stunbolt then roll into physical dmg if you cast it on them again?


Yes... smokin.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 20 2010, 06:00 PM) *
I'm not sure where you get the idea that not observing in detail negatively impacts spell casting...
edit:
and all that smoke and flashpack nonsense mean nothing to an astrally perceiving mage.

penalties to perception affect spellcasting.

failing to observe in detail counts as a distracted modifier, which is -2. therefore, if the magician needs to make a perception check (which the magician will if the people being targeted are hiding), the magician must either take the -2 penalty or spend the simple action to remove it.

also, being on the astral doesn't remove astral shadows, which still block line of sight. the magician still has to perceive any targets, which is done with an assensing test. again, observe in detail is required to avoid a -2 penalty, which will be applied to the spellcasting test (since an astral perception test is still a perception test), and the magician must also spend a simple action to get into astral perception mode in the first place potentially. furthermore, the magician will no longer be able to simply switch modes of vision, such as going to thermal or low light from cyber eyes to negate or reduce penalties, and is still affected by *astral* visibility modifiers, particularly shadow clutter, background count (potentially), and aerosol FAB clouds and such things.

the same tactics still work, ultimately.
jimbo
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 21 2010, 03:16 PM) *
failing to observe in detail counts as a distracted modifier, which is -2.


No, No, No.
Yerameyahu
Only if you're actually distracted; that is, doing something else. It's very clear in the text.
kzt
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 20 2010, 07:46 PM) *
I didn't say there were no draw backs to doing this, but it will do as I said, and eliminate problems from smoke, and flashpacks.

No, smoke is made up of lots of little particles, each of which creates their own little astral shadow. So it works just the same on the astral.
Glyph
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 21 2010, 06:39 PM) *
No, smoke is made up of lots of little particles, each of which creates their own little astral shadow. So it works just the same on the astral.

The druids of weapons manufacturer Esprit Industries:

"We've finally done it! The Esprit "Petite Brume" - doesn't all of that French make you giddy? - a grenade that releases a cloud of FAB-IIb bacteria which obscures both physical and astral perception! And they're only 1,000 nuyen.gif !"

"Um, wouldn't a 30 nuyen.gif smoke grenade do the exact same thing?"

"That... that's marketing's problem."

biggrin.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 21 2010, 07:18 PM) *
Only if you're actually distracted; that is, doing something else. It's very clear in the text.

yes, it is very clear. let's have a look:

"Unless a character specifically takes
an Observe in Detail Simple Action to perceive, she is considered to be
distracted by whatever task is at hand (suffering a –2 dice pool modifier)."

what is the task at hand? well, unless they're actively looking, ie observing in detail, then it bloody well isn't perceiving is it?

it mentions quite clearly that you take the -2 unless you spend a simple action to observe in detail quite clearly in the text. now, it does tell you further in that you don't always need to worry about making a perception check (which is good, because otherwise it would get pretty stupid), so if you're trying to perceive a guy wearing the flashing light from a police car for a hat with glow-in-the-dark clothing in a completely pitch black environment with no cover in it, i would certainly waive the penalty since you don't even need to make the check to see him at all (subject to GM approval technically, but i expect pretty much any GM will approve of instantly perceiving that with no test involved). but no way in hell am i going to waive the distracted penalty which explicitly applies anytime you don't take a simple action if you're trying to spot someone who is wearing clothes that blend in with the background, has good cover/concealment to hide behind, and is actively trying to hide. now, somewhere in the middle there, we have a point where you go from "no penalty" to "penalty", and that particular point is not clearly defined. but i was just talking about people who are quite far in the "penalty" area in that post, so yes you do take that penalty. now sure, if your corporate security are a bunch of idiots and they stand in the open and shout "here i am, please hit me with a direct combat spell and also a full burst from whatever your heaviest weapon is", then sure, you don't get that penalty. but strangely, once the shooting starts, i have this crazy feeling that most security forces are going to have a strong preference for taking the best cover they can find and keeping their head down.

and arguably, the petite brume applies multiple penalties... you would get the astral shadows (which should probably not be quite as bad as on the physical) and the FAB cloud penalty. it's kinda like thermal smoke grenades, only even more expensive.
killfr3nzy
The reason I think that Assensing would ignore normal Smoke etc, is that living things shine brightly, and manufactured things are dull. So, while there are tiny tiny tiny particles around, you're looking through it to the neon peter-petrielli burning-man-thing behind it.
The Perception table lists the penalty for Normal/LowLight/Thermo/Ultrasound, it says f*ck-all about Astral, which is a seperate sense.
Astral Perception, CR 4a Pg 191: Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed).
It goes on to mention that you test if people are attempting to hide, but to my mind:
A) You need something that will hide your Astral, doesn't matter if you're so good at infiltrating you can hide in the shadow of a passing mosquito, you're a blazing floodlight to Magicians.
B) Just like you can't use Infiltration to just 'poof' from someone's sight without actually doing anything, adding smoke would do nothing to the Magician.

Oh, and 'Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space.' Same page as above.
Voran
Yeah. They really need to start adding magic items mundanes can use to protect against this garbage. Oh but wait, mages would be able to detect the items. Sorry mundanes, you're screwed. One newbie mage with a low level stunbolt and astral perception could punk an invisible Solid Snake, at range. Hell a newbie mage with the same setup could nail any mundane prime-super runner that wasn't a mage themselves. Big bad assassin Riser? Bah, astral perception, stunbolt. Supermerc Picador? Bah, astral perception, stunbolt.
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