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Kagetenshi
The problem with Deus Ex... well, problems, were multifold. First off, rifles ruled the day. If you scrapped all of your Pistols skill and upped Rifles as high as it'd go you'd have a little difficulty in the very beginning, and then you'd never have to use another weapon again. Especially once you got both the AR and the sniper rifle silenced... after that you can just pump up heavy weapons and become a walking tank. Explosives will take out pretty much any major baddie, and the Flamethrower will make short work of the flatlander woman. Also, people forgot about you after a ridiculously short amount of time. You could fire the shotgun on full autofire for several magazines and then wait about a minute and everyone'd be relaxed again.

~J
BitBasher
QUOTE
The reason I nominate Fallout Tactics is that it uses skills to determine outcomes with random "dice" rolls.
There definitely was a random number generator used in FO:T. Ever miss a person when your listed chance was 99%? yeah nyahnyah.gif.

Also I feel Fallout tactics was a very clunky combat interface, especially given the size of those maps. I think it was a step backwards from X-com in that route.
ShadowPhoenix
Never played XCom unfortunately(heard it was good though) so I'm going off what I know, and I believe FO:T was a % dice roll system, 99% chance and miss, means the randomizer got a 1 on it's % roll. if we strip the % mechanics for skills and switch to D6, add the proper flavor and maybe make the gameworld much much bigger, it would be a big hit. I think personally, using a system similar to FO:T with the D6, right atmosphere, and make it MMO, and it'd make the game way interesting. But I don't think MS is going to jump into the MMO. time will tell.
Slamm-O
i think that the fallout random number generator was either seriously fragged, or else it lied to you, i missed far to many 95% shots, in all the fallouts. I agree that tactics was a step back from x-com, it felt more like a puzzle game tahn a tactical game.

also i think deus ex was mentioned heavily in the thread before that one poster, just wanted to get that out there.

i guess i will seek questions to my legal query elsewhere, but in the meantime i am going to start to draw up a design doc and look over the JA 2 source to see how usable it is, when the doc is done ill throw it up on the community projects board and any interested parties can contact me.

ciao
Moonstone Spider
I think the MMO genre is glutted right now. There's just too many of them competing for the same customer base. MMOs don't operate like other games, you can't be a member of more than perhaps two of them at a time due to both time and money constraints since you pay by the month for them.

Thus I feel an SR MMO has little chance of success. Particularly given the nature of Shadowrun, which really isn't conducive to MMO. It's all about atmosphere, which MMOs tend to lack. Instead you'd have a vast city populated by a million 13 year olds speaking in 1337 and calling each other Ghey while complaining about hacks 24/7. Frankly just thinking about it makes me start to dislike Shadowrun.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Instead you'd have a vast city populated by a million 13 year olds speaking in 1337 and calling each other Ghey while complaining about hacks 24/7. Frankly just thinking about it makes me start to dislike Shadowrun.
and to the real runners runners and johnsons they would be wannabees, posers. I think it's perfect.
Glav
Except those posers would be running around with wired 3 and smartlink 2's as well, and not just "cheap look alike add-ons." wink.gif

Or, how about a NWN meets Morrowind meets GTA meets Shadowrun? Multi-player RPG action in a large 3d shadowrun seattle, with lots of time-specific traffic throughout the whole city. Hell...in a virtual morrowind-level-of-detail-3d-seattle, I'd not even bother to do many runs; just walking down to the local club, sitting with my (real or virtual) runners, and waiting for johnsons to walk up and offer jobs biggrin.gif The city would be detailed to begin with, but much like NWN, the GM would go set up runner modules in various buildings. Characters would be in FPS mode, and have to work in a ghost-recon-like team to hit the building and leave before Lone Star comes to town.

/me stops and drools for a minute

Morrowind meets Shadowrun meets NWN meets GTA. Oh man. Who would I have to kill to get that...
Fortune
QUOTE (Glav)
Except those posers would be running around with wired 3 and smartlink 2's as well, and not just "cheap look alike add-ons."

Which is also quite reasonable in the Sixth World.
Glav
It better be nice and realistic, then. That way the first time those idiots go on a run and decide to go in guns blazing, they die. Don't let them 'respawn' or get ressurected or anything like that, either. smile.gif
AK404
Why would an SR game on the XBox be a bad thing? Hell, take that defunct SR: Assassin game that was in the works except you can work from modifiable archetypes, give it the Splinter Cell/SC: Ghost treatment, and off you go.

Oh. You don't want a combat-oriented SR game. There's a problem with that: everyone's vision of the SR universe is gonna be vastly different, so while a stealth-type game might be simplistic compared to the RPG, it can still be a fairly good game.
BitBasher
The last thing we need is Ryan Mercury, hit button 1 to turn in to a drake.
redneckninja
Has anyone played "Chrome"? It's a fps with only like 10 missions; a smaller game that doesn't have a huge following. (Mostly due to the intensive system usage) It comes with an open source game editor, and already incorporates a cyberware system into it. It seems to be ready made for an SR mod...

Some of the cooler features;

If you see a vehicle, it's drivable. You just need to aprehend it. rotate.gif
Reflex boosters. Multiplayer wired reflexes. cyber.gif
Full combined arms assaults love.gif
most things that I loved about Deus ex and with maps bigger than Halo wobble.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE
The problem with Deus Ex... well, problems, were multifold. First off, rifles ruled the day. If you scrapped all of your Pistols skill and upped Rifles as high as it'd go you'd have a little difficulty in the very beginning, and then you'd never have to use another weapon again.
I disagree, I never used a rifle for that entire game, I sniped with a silenced pistol. With mods all the way up and a gameplan I killed every living thing and never took more than one shot to do it.
Slamm-O
i used the crossbow with poison darts and gas grenades, and hacked turrets/robots. I also used a modded pistol when out of other options, i found that the game was not too difficult doing this, certainly no more so than when my brothers played (one was rifles one HW), we all seemed to have the same relatively difficult time through the game.
Xirces
And right there is proof of the best thing about Deus Ex - you could do it any way you wanted - I've played through so many times - you pick a concept and go with it - yeah, rifles did make sniping easier, but sometimes you don't want to snipe.

Personally I preferred the combat knife...
gknoy
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Also I feel Fallout tactics was a very clunky combat interface, especially given the size of those maps. I think it was a step backwards from X-com in that route.

ooo, someone mentioned mah Baby. I :heart: X-COM. =D

If anyone's interested in playing it, you can get the game for I think about $10-$12 (after shipping, even, I think it's under $15) on the internet. Unfortunately, you'll need a win9x box (haven't tried with XP home, tho) to run it. A slow 9x box. My p233 is a little bit too fast, in that the mouse sensitivity is too high.

So if you have an old p100 or something, give it a crack. It's one of those CLASSIC games that I really wish I could get again for windows. Or linux. Lol. (People are working on remaking it, but they're slow.)

I almost bought Fallout Tactics this weekend ... it sounds fun. As a fan of the fallout games, I like the idea of actually CARING about your people (in X-Com, my squaddies were pretty ... anonymous). But that said ... it'll be hard to improve on Xcom's interface.

I hear that Silent Storm (http://www.nival.com/eng/s2_info.html) is a great tactical game, very similar to X-Com in that it has incredibly large scope and freedom (you can actually shoot through floors and stuff!), and insane levels of detailed control. If you are a tactical game munchkin, you might love it. Sadly, I couldn't figure out the demo well enough to tell =( But I hear it's darn cool.
BitBasher
I never did use any melee weapon in that game except for bashing open doors and such.
Kagetenshi
The Dragon Sword was, IMO, the only melee weapon worth using as an actual weapon. YMMV, and from the earlier comments apparently it does, but I find it difficult to believe that the hideously underpowered melee weapons actually managed to be properly useful.

~J
BlackSmith
well if they make it to a console, and make even one screw up, you can forget the SR feeling.
you console people do know that those console games are damn hard to update? so one bug and the game is either warped up so badly it lags like hell or you can't simply play it like a SR game.
this happened at ToEE witch has SOOOoooo many rule flaws that you can say it does not follow rules at all.

btw, coding to linux aint bit harder than to any other platform.
only that linux does not work with any (most) MS components.
BlackSmith
i played Deux Ex trough by a melee character alone.
that regeneration pumped to max made it possible.
JongWK
It coudl a FPS, with a cybered mage with potential access to decking. The more cyber you get, the less magic you have. On the other hand, cyber would be a quicker way to get some power. Depending on the route you take, the jobs you'd get would be vastly different.

On the other hand, if you're planning for a console game, why not a beat 'em up? I long for good games like Final Fight and Super Street Fighter 2... (BOW BEFORE CAPCOM ALMIGHTY!!!) notworthy.gif

Besides, once you have all the Xbox gamers drooling over the setting, you can sneak in a wiz PC RPG. wink.gif
ShadowPhoenix
I think what they could do with consoles(at least with the direction they are going) is to patch the executable and run it off of the Internal Hard Drives. PS2 is getting one, and XBox already has one. So whenever there is an update, just hook the PS2 or XBox to the web, download the new Executable to the HDD, and then make the CD software check the HDD for an update if there is one before running, then it runs the executable off the HDD as opposed to running the exe code from disc. this would make Consoles patchable biggrin.gif anyway, I think SR as a Video Game of any sort would need to be well thought out, and give a lot of options and be tactical(multiplayer or multi character) in some way. I'd hate to play the SR universe as 1 lone person, Shadowrunning is all about Teams. SR was built as it says in the BBB, for 4-8 players, thus the SR game should make the team at minimum 4 characters in size and all the characters should be playable, because I think we all know how BAD AI can be frown.gif.
Rev
QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix)
I think what they could do with consoles(at least with the direction they are going) is to patch the executable and run it off of the Internal Hard Drives.

The scuttlebut about xbox2 currently is that it will not have a hard drive. Thats just scuttlebut though, and I don't even pay much attention to it.
BitBasher
It may be scuttlebutt but several third party game manufacturers have concurred that is the case, plus a company has signed a contract to provide flash card storage (IR memory cards) for the Xbox2, so you might as well accept it.
Aesir
If they make a new Shadowrun game Id like to see a remake of the old SNES game, more or less. Modern graphics and rules and jada jada jada. But a story similar to the old one. You are some poor guy waking up in a hospital with no memory, and everybody whants you dead. Or your a corporate wageslave who gets caught up in all kinds of shit like Neo or Kilaro (The Burning Time), eventually becoming a fullfledged Shadowrunner.
ShadowPhoenix
I think both those Ideas would be interesting, and making the old SNES game or Gen Game into the XBox version(updating them a lot of course) would be pretty wizzer and I guess I could accept that as passable. I just would like to wish for something better, something more interactive and more in touch with the SR feel and spirit. Not just another FF or FPS
Johnny the Bull
QUOTE (Slamm-O)
i guess i will seek questions to my legal query elsewhere.

No need. Microsoft has true property rights over any videogame using the Shadowrun intellectual property. You cannot use it without permission, even if the game is released freeware as it impinges on their exercise of that right. The law doesn't protect the right to profit off that IP, but the right to use the IP. It would be akin to writing the next part of Lord of the Rings without permission of JRRT's estate and releasing it freeware. Sure you're not charging it, but its using someone else's property in a manner that may go against their wishes.

Kagetenshi
Unless you made a parody.

Which is probably what most fanfic writers are counting on to protect themselves...

~J
ShadowPhoenix
yeah, nothing like the shield of parody to allow you to usurp that IP stuff nyahnyah.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
Manipulating (and blatantly abusing) parody law: ShadowStumble a game of incompetence trying to be successful criminals in the Shadowrun setting.
gknoy
QUOTE (Shadow)
(And yes I know Linux is the second coming but there is a reason games arn't made for it, it's damn hard to code for).

I don't think that's the real reason. (Yes, it can be messy to deploy for Linux -- glibc version what? What version of Qt? of X? emerge -up world ? wink.gif)

The reason, as I see it, is of inertia. Building a modern game is HARD work, regardless of platform. One needs tools and toolkits and other libraries and such to be able to build something of sufficient complexity. People originally build games for Windows because that's where the market was (more chance of money). Now, that's still the case (I can count the games I know of that were made to run in Linux, even less not counting the Loki games), but also, the TOOLS are all for Windows games still. Well, and Console games.

No one wants to spend money and time developing a commercial-grade game toolkit for Linux because it's not financially viable. They make crossplatform tools for XBox/GC/PS2 (and sometimes Windows Too) because developers want to be able to saturate the game market, but the Linux segment is too small. Mac gamers face a similar problem, though arguably not quite as bad. Hell, I don't know if they ever did get a Halo port for Mac, despite its initial debut being at MACWORLD (I think).

If Someone (the open source community?) made tools suitable for game development on Linux, we might see more of it. Yes, these are in development, somewhat. =) I see it as good news. If I were starting from scratch, I'd go with a Linux game, simply because I don't have access to all the Windows based tools. And I'm a sucker. wink.gif

As an aside, everyone I've known talk about MFC and windows coding has said it is the spawn of everything evil. =D

Kagetenshi
Halo had a Mac port; it came out not long after the Windows port.

Probably some last spark of Bungie shining through.

~J
BitBasher
New Bungie company slogan: "You like my hat? it's made out of cash!"
Kagetenshi
I liked their old hat better; it was made out of fucking awesome games.
Sad thing is, when Microsoft offered to trade hats no one ended up with Bungie's first hat and Microsoft still has a money hat.

~J
Johnny the Bull
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Unless you made a parody.

Which is probably what most fanfic writers are counting on to protect themselves...

~J

I agree, but dear god making an SR game and claiming parody as a defence for converting MS's IP would be a very fine line to tread. I wouldn't recommend it.

And if you released online/exported it you have copyright law in various jurisdictions to deal with. Not fun.
DV8
QUOTE (Johnny the Bull)
QUOTE (Slamm-O @ Mar 8 2004, 08:21 AM)
i guess i will seek questions to my legal query elsewhere.

No need. Microsoft has true property rights over any videogame using the Shadowrun intellectual property. You cannot use it without permission, even if the game is released freeware as it impinges on their exercise of that right. The law doesn't protect the right to profit off that IP, but the right to use the IP. It would be akin to writing the next part of Lord of the Rings without permission of JRRT's estate and releasing it freeware. Sure you're not charging it, but its using someone else's property in a manner that may go against their wishes.

Would a game like Decker be in violation, then?
BitBasher
I play decker! Then again I play NetHack too!
Shadow
Hmm I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in legal ease, but it seems to me that common sense would say that I could make a game without using any copy write infringement (Shadowrun and it's trademark images are up for grabs on fanpro website as long as no affiliation or profit is made from them) nor profit of someone elses work, then it would be okay. I will have to send off some emails to ask some questions to WK and MS.
Kagetenshi
Once it crosses into the line of "computer/video game" WizKids no longer has a say in the matter.

~J
Rev
QUOTE (DV8)
Would a game like Decker be in violation, then?

Seems certain to be a flagrant one to me, but I'm no copyright lawyer.

If it did not use all of the program and other attribute names from shadowrun it might stand a chance, depending on how heavily the mechanics were modified to turn it into a computer game. As is first microsoft IP lawyer that comes along the game is gone.
Johnny the Bull
QUOTE (DV8)
QUOTE (Johnny the Bull @ Mar 10 2004, 12:19 AM)
QUOTE (Slamm-O @ Mar 8 2004, 08:21 AM)
i guess i will seek questions to my legal query elsewhere.

No need. Microsoft has true property rights over any videogame using the Shadowrun intellectual property. You cannot use it without permission, even if the game is released freeware as it impinges on their exercise of that right. The law doesn't protect the right to profit off that IP, but the right to use the IP. It would be akin to writing the next part of Lord of the Rings without permission of JRRT's estate and releasing it freeware. Sure you're not charging it, but its using someone else's property in a manner that may go against their wishes.

Would a game like Decker be in violation, then?

They'd be walking a fine line between infringing on Gibson and other CP writers IP and using genre conventions. Like I said, depends on jurisdiction, but without spending a few hours applying the tests and referring to similar-fact judgements, I'd say they are original enough to get by. As a general rule, an intellectual 'concept' requires a higher standard of proof for an action to arise.
Adam
QUOTE (Shadow @ Mar 10 2004, 11:24 AM)
Hmm I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in legal ease, but it seems to me that common sense would say that I could make a game without using any copy write infringement (Shadowrun and it's trademark images are up for grabs on fanpro website as long as no affiliation or profit is made from them) nor profit of someone elses work, then it would be okay. I will have to send off some emails to ask some questions to WK and MS.

I'm not a lawyer, but it's pretty clear from the legal text that WizKids has given permission for people to use the unmodified Shadowrun logo on non-commercial web pages.

Other material - book covers, etc - is covered under fair use, but I don't think "putting it in my computer game" is fair use.

And please - it's copyright - the 'right to copy', not copywrite. smile.gif

But yes, if you want the absolute answer, email the relevant people at WizKids and MS, depending on what you're working on.
Johnny the Bull
QUOTE (Shadow)
Hmm I am not sufficiently knowledgeable in legal ease, but it seems to me that common sense would say that I could make a game without using any copy write infringement (Shadowrun and it's trademark images are up for grabs on fanpro website as long as no affiliation or profit is made from them) nor profit of someone elses work, then it would be okay. I will have to send off some emails to ask some questions to WK and MS.

Common law systems are deeply rooted in positivist legal theory - law does not need reflect reality because the world is so complex that the law can never perfectly fit social and moral conventions. Don't rely on 'common sense' when deciding whether to do something like this. If you did make an SR game using SR IP without MS's permission you would get slammed, no question.
Slamm-O
i think there is a big question actually, since youd have to be at least somewhat popular to draw the attecntion of anyone for a lawsuit case in point, that game decker, or battletechmodproductions.com and all the other mods/freeware games out there that use other people IP, the ip holders dont see it as a threat or see it as more trouble than its worth. Not saying anyone should count on that, but come on all youd have to do is not include credits and then release it onto irc, p2p, ftp, or something else anonymously (maybe even from a connection that doesnt trace back toyou, then get rid of your original code/other work if you are really paranoid) then you just did what you wanted, easy to do as long as you dont keep an avenue to you open (like you would if you were selling a game). And if MPAA/RIAA cant stop transfer of unwanted files, neither can any other ip holder.
Johnny the Bull
QUOTE (Slamm-O)
i think there is a big question actually, since youd have to be at least somewhat popular to draw the attecntion of anyone for a lawsuit case in point, that game decker, or battletechmodproductions.com and all the other mods/freeware games out there that use other people IP, the ip holders dont see it as a threat or see it as more trouble than its worth. Not saying anyone should count on that, but come on all youd have to do is not include credits and then release it onto irc, p2p, ftp, or something else anonymously (maybe even from a connection that doesnt trace back toyou, then get rid of your original code/other work if you are really paranoid) then you just did what you wanted, easy to do as long as you dont keep an avenue to you open (like you would if you were selling a game). And if MPAA/RIAA cant stop transfer of unwanted files, neither can any other ip holder.

I am not saying it can't be done - it can be, just not legally. If people are willing to develop it and release it without legal protection, all well and good. Also, you are dealing with MS's IP rights. Microsoft, as I learnt the hard way, pursues those that infringe on its IP rights as a matter of principle, regardless of its cost/benefit.
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