WH40K?
Doesn't get more Dystopian.
Orks, Elves, Sorcery, Demons.

Entire planets over run by undead armies

Stahlseele, the title says 'non-lame'.

i happen to like the over the top ness of 40k ^^

It's needz moar dakka.

navar enuff!

It's in interesting fantasy world you live in. Maybe you should make an RPG. And I didn't misspell your name, that implies an error. It's just too long I just can't be bothered to check it and type it all out, so you got a phonetic nickname.
Again, more fantasy. I can't say I've seen too many Shadowrun adventures involve killing top level corporate executives. In fact, if anything, that's as far from a typical Shadowrun as it gets. The Shadowrun world relies on the idea that the corporations are in control of everything and their heads are pulling strings from up on high. If the "typical" Shadowrun is popping off top executives, then the corps aren't in control anymore. And that's bad for business. Shadowrunners are just individuals. The mega-corp is an entity. If you look at the names attached to all the big corps over the pre-4e muddled time line writing hack job, many of them don't change much. Middle management changes. Upper management is a different story. Besides, in the end, you're still missing the point, which explains why you're arguing "against" me on these wild tangents. It's not that it doesn't happen, it's that it should, and it would. But nowhere near the scale you're suggesting. Like a lot of things many Shadowrun players don't get, in the end, it's all about the business. The executive is an individual, but part of the entity. And it isn't good for business if they're killing each other all the time or sabotaging each other's projects/divisions. That's just sloppy storytelling if the only way executives move up is by damaging their parent organization.

The thing is, we're not talking about elves from Tolkein or D&D who have already lived a hundred years or more, and know what it is like to pace atthat rate. Elves in the corporate world of Shadowrun are humans with pointy ears. At their oldest, they're like 70 or 80. Most are probably younger, and have grown up in the human world of results and deadlines. They may or may not have adjusted yet to an "elven" timeline. And not all elves would adjust tot hat timeline just like not all humans would be constantly pushing to the top in devious ways.

As I said, intentional misspelling. Don't. 'Yera' will suffice if your time is so valuable; I do notice that your post is kinda long, though.

For clarity, I didn't mean that killing *top-level* execs was an everyday thing. However, corporate squabbles (internal) *are* classically shadowrun material.

Yes, but Yahoo was the part I remembered. That's how I've always said it in my head because, well, the rest is a long jumble.

We're not 4 and this isn't recess. As I said, 'Yera' will be fine; if that's still too long, I can't help you.

Anyway. You said 'sharks', and my point was that sharks aren't waiting for old age in the first place. If you actually meant 'all corporate figures, not just sharks', then I misunderstood. I didn't mean (or say) that all corporate figures are 'proactively retiring' everyone ahead of them, nor that there isn't a majority who just waits.

Are they really different, though? It seems like that would defy the point of creating/using an "elven language" if it's different to the point of unintelligibility across national boundaries. Even Arabic, which is balkanized like you describe, has a Modern Standard Arabic that newscasters use and people try to use to communicate with speakers from faraway countries. I'd imagine there's less Irish and more English loans in Tairngire's Sperethiel, but the Sperethiel people learn in the classroom in both countries is probably not too dissimilar.



This, so much this



I think the closest analogue, because the dwarves are the "well integrated minority" or whatever that doesn't have the trouble the others do, and has a reputation as hard workers and all of that, is probably Asian minorities in the West, the whole "model minority" thing. Because I'm sure dwarves that fail to conform to those expectations get looked upon in much the same way as Asians who fall through the cracks here.

You say this as if it was a negotiation, lol.

And no, we're not four. I'm not sure why you're looking for insult where there isn't any. I think it's because you drew a line in the sand to say I was "wrong" (lol). So if this was something you had a vested emotional interest in, then well, I guess that's your cross to bear. I don't care enough about you to even remember your name, much less insult you. Unless you find that insulting. And well, I guess that's also your cross to bear.

Heck look at the Mog in Somalia. Lots of guns in the hands of gangs that zoned out on drugs. Complete lawlessness.

For feel I like the movie Babylon AD. The movie was mostly cheese, but there was good environment stuff for SR. The Johnson drived around in an APC with heavy AR inside. It is escorted by surplus Russian tanks. There was a marketplace with guys selling bread next to a guy selling AK's.

Ya so i just wonder why the gangs in SR fluff just seem sooooo lame....i guess it's a just baggage from the '80's. I wish they'd really flesh it out....not necessarily imitating the gang stereo types of modern day...but exploring the brutality that would be required of someone to survive in such a supposedly dangerous world. They say so much... "Running the shadows has never been as dangerous..." ....and then they have a picture of a totally cartoony dwarf, elf and troll all packed into a clown car.

Or for example the artwork in runners companion for the new charcter concepts just turns me off so badly....it just looks so goofy....and I wish they wouldn't mess up all the kick ass visuals I got going for shadowrun inside my head....and then i'm like....why?

Are you kidding? The Dwarf had AzTexMex for Lunch! It doesn't get more dangerous than that!

Oh come now, just because you edited down your insult, doesn't mean that no one saw it.

Edited down what? I only changed the wording because I didn't like the way it read. Stop trying to stir up shit. Damn this board is full of drama queens.

Kruger can stir up shit all on his own.. thank you very much

Maybe it's full of people who aren't interested in being bullied.

Bullied by what? Intelligent debate? You're one of the crown princesses of drama yourself.

If you're going to disagree with someone, you can't just expect them to roll over and acquiesce because you say something is so. If that's how debates have always worked for you, it might explain the frustration with intelligent discourse some of you seem to display. You're really just one of those guys who thinks he knows it all. And that's fine. I can see how you might clash with someone like me. Doubling up your arrogance with a constant victim mentality.

You mean, someone who *also* thinks he knows it all? Certainly I knew full well that you were referring to me; you're not exactly subtle, bud. Belittling people in an 'intelligent discourse' is the definition of bullying, but I don't need to explain that to someone like you, right? So, you're free to take whatever tactics you like, but don't pretend to be surprised when people don't—how was it?—"roll over and acquiesce".

I've never claimed to be subtle here. Subtleties are for people too concerned with appearances. Trying to conceal scorn with pleasantries is somewhat distasteful and weak. Kinda like calling me "bud".

My responses in this thread were pretty reasonable and well supported. If you're going to counter with a bunch of "Nuh-uh" type replies and then get catty, don't expect me to not mark you down on it.

Oho, you like being called by your correct handle, eh? What a crazy custom, right?

Well, that's probably plenty threadjacking for the moment. I'll just see you next time, Kruger.

"Next time, Gadget. Next time!"

You're missing the point, again. *gasp* lol. I don't care what you call me. You're still as irrelevant as you ever were in the respect of taking offense to what you say. Just pointing out that you're quite guilty of the things you try and pin on me.

I would have been worried about how it read to the mods as well. I wouldn't have come into this argument if you hadn't pulled your "oh I wasn't being insulting" drek. You were and you are.

To the substance of you argument, I find it hilarious that you're using a Tolkien trope to describe the future of the SR world, while deriding his work the entire time. We don't know what would happen to races that lived longer than us, what their motivations would look like. If the "race against death" is really why humans do as well as they do.

In the SR world though, it's explicitly not how it is. Lofwyr acted incredibly fast, and still does. Most of the other greats act with similar speed. They may have long term plans in mind, but that hasn't stopped them from reshaping the fabric of our society at blinding speed.

And yeah, that means the longer this state of affairs goes on, the more likely murder is going to be used as a common form of corp intrigue.

Sounds like more job to me, can't be that bad

More likely to end up as a ritualised form of combat [after all, why waste exec talent in needless death ??]...
...One example of which is the car combat in Richard Morgan's Market Forces, where people challenge each other and the winner gets promoted.

I imagine that eventually there will be things similar to how TT was initially planned, ie contests of skill to ensure continued fitness. But that's going to take a pretty huge paradigm shift before it happens.

Sure, whatever.

Anyhow, I wasn't really deriding Tolkein. His world works in its world. It's true I'm not his biggest fan as an author. I think his writing style leaves a lot to be desired. But it's hard to have a discussion of modern fantasy elements without referencing him. Especially since it was obvious that Shadowun's creators took Tolkein and Gibson, combined them, and ran with it. Everything about the way magic and metahumanity works in Shadowrun is taken from the Tolkein/D&D norm. Pointing out or criticizing the places where it doesn't work in Shadowrun isn't critical of Tolkein's vision. If you read carefully, you realize I didn;t call Tolkein idiotic, I called it idiotic to have retained the classic Tolkein concepts of immortality to be true in a world where elves were genetically linked to humans, and when combined with the established background for the game.

We know that you're heavily into the fantasy aspect of the game. That's cool. I played D&D, WFRP, read all the classic books as a kid, still hold onto the dwindling hope George RR Martin will finish his series before he dies... It's true my interests primarily lie in lower fantasy whereas yours are in higher fantasy, but it isn't so huge of a divide.

I also like science, and science fiction too. And, when it comes to Shadowrun, I would prefer the blend make a bit more sense. So I like to examine the background material a bit closer than some. None of my statements were made with some kind of "And it was so" authority. And you've certainly been confused if you think the implication that longer lived beings having longer range plans precludes the idea of any kind of immediate decisiveness. For example. Smaug reacts pretty quickly to Bilbo stealing his shit.

Ewww...
...Is that in the unedited version ??

Didn't you ever play Lunar? Don't you know what Dragon Diamonds really are?

Thank you, that clarifies your position nicely. Very insightful, even =) One last comment in regards to your last sentence though, I was specifically talking about this statement:

Well, then you leave me confused as to where you're confused.

That quote was phrased as a question. I didn't say they wouldn't, I asked if they would. It was designed to get the input of others on what they thought. One of my biggest sticking points on traditional elves in role playing games was how to model them correctly. A lot fantasy authors of any repute have modeled them (long lived elves) as somewhat aloof and with a certain level of disinterest in the affairs of mankind. And that assumedly refers to the concerns of a race that is so short lived. But, then again, in most traditional fantasy realms, long lived elves are also long established in the world too. Shadowrun's elves are brand new (aside from the ones they've tried to tie to Earthdawn), and stuck in a human world. Even Tir can't be aloof and go at its own pace if it wants to interact in any way with the outside world. Really, I just see it as an inconsistency borne out of bad storytelling in 1e. So yes, it seems like elves shouldn't be good corporate sharks, but the established canon has said they are. They'd have to be to accomplish what they have, as unrealistic as a lot of it seems like it should be.

To be fair, I stopped playing elves in role playing games a long time ago because I felt the mentality of them was too alien to play "correctly". Same reason our games of L5R died quiet deaths. Loved the background material, loved the card game, even love the concept. Too difficult to play. Samurai played by most modern westerners aren't samurai. They're just traditional western characters in bathrobes and sandals with katanas, lol.

I see. The first part sounded like a definitive statement, making the questions seem a bit rhetorical. Thanks for clarifying.

Earthdawn's history seems to support the excellent corporate raider concept pretty well though, certainly the Therans were cutthroat and ruthless enough to give Damian Knight a run for his money^^ So while I see your point, everything written in-universe for the SR elves rejects the traditional elvish disinterest (well, perhaps the blood wood, for the traditionalists out there - but that didn't work out so well either ). It feels pretty consistent to me. More traditional, Irish sidhe - amoral, ready to cut your throat.

@Kruger

I agree a lot with your statement. The one aspect of SR that always confused me until people clarified this thing about immortal elves was there was always this weird dichotomy between elves being these beings that just genetically look different than humans but they have no real culture or anything....but then all of a sudden they are acting like this ancient all knowing beings and that was never clarified to me. My opinion is that most elves,dwarves, orks, trolls pretty much have the same outlook as a lot of kids who were adopted from china or africa for example....culturally and behaviorally they are no different than their peers...but they look different and that aspect alone can be enough to either give them some weird complexes, deny completely that they are different in any way, or alienate them and push them psychologically to seek out those in their same predicament....and also many of them just become well-adjusted adults who are comfortable with who they are. I feel that most elves just kind of half-ass check out sperethiel and by and large are mostly molded by the culture of the region their from. The only difference would be the Tir's where kids have been purposely educated to have a certain cultural identity that defines itself along racial lines. Much like israel which was formed by a bunch of people who actually didn't have all that much in common except that they were jewish...but came from vastly different backgrounds....but they were educated to all ascribe to one cultural identity.
So when SR starts treating metahumans the same way as D&D it just makes no sense at all....when they say the "dwarves" like to do this and the "elves" behave in such and such way just like how tolkien would describe his races....it just makes no sense at all. Only 60 years have gone by and probably more than half of metahumans have human grandparents....and sure they were persecuted and run off and had to find their own paths...but still, i feel it would take centuries for the "races" to really divide off into separate nations....but at this early time of the awakening everyone is really confused and places like Tir are basically just giant social experiments....but i feel national and ethnic identity would still dominate heavily over metahuman identity. A japanese troll is going to feel more japanese than a member of that troll nation in the black forest in germany....despite all the racism i'm sure he's suffered. The same is even true today with ethnicity vs. race....by and large people mostly identify with their cultural ethnic group and then pretty much mostly just give a little nod to their racial identity. Look at mexican americans and salvadorean americans.....or african americans and african immigrants....the cultural group takes primacy. So it just feels really artificial to try to do the whole "elves have certain disposition"....maybe in 2172 it could be morel like tolkien...but not in 2072.

It would be great if people stopped using the word "immortal" concerning Elves in Shadowrun. They're not. The very, very, few that are are specifically not called Elves any more, but Immortal Elves. They're so unique it's right there in their name.

If you're going to talk about how "idiotic" it is for Tolkien's ideas of immortality to be pulled into Shadowrun, maybe you should at least go check that those ideas did get pulled into Shadowrun.

I see you're still stuck on the wording of forever, when it was obvious the intention was drawing the parallel of immortal elves with elves that live "several hundred years" (1e& 4e), which is well, well beyond that of a normal human and effectively forever, in game terms.

It's okay, the rest of us will wait while you catch up.

Shadowrun Elves, like Earthdawn elves.. live to be ~ 400 years old.
Which to a human is fraking for ever

A gutshot Elf has a tendency to live as long as any other metatype that's also been gut shot.

Old age only matters when you're living in a world where it isn't dangerous!

Inca, for the most part Toilken didn't get pulled into Shadowrun other than body forms. Immortal Elves, as Critias points out, are vastly different than Elves. Elves are just as grubby and dirty as the next metahuman. They aren't the impossibly light, millennium-long-living, back-to-nature, effeminate (as was the British uppercrust ideal of Toilken's day) elves. What was brought into the 6th world setting were the negatives, the racism and pride and aloofness. Unfortunately they didn't bring the biggest negative of Toilken elves, their extreme magical melancholy that could bring the elf to death or blind rage.

Tolkien also didn't have his elves strung up by the descendants of the KKK.

Oh, wait, you got racism in there. OK.

I included racism the other way, but the Orcs hated Elves in Tolkien in only the way that the Japanese and Koreans can hate each other.

That is something else of Tolkien that didn't make it. The very deep Elf-Orc connection.


EDIT: Oh, and the human nobility in Tolkien being quite hostile towards the Elves was not uncommon. It was just difficult to act on it to the extent you describe because Elves could run on snow and shoot 2 arrows at once (I saw it in a movie! ).

That's because Orcs in Tolkien are actually Elves that Sauron warped.

Right. That's the part that didn't get imported.

In a lot of ways Shadowrun Elves are closer to the pre-Tolkien Elves of myth.

Right down to being bastards that steal anything that isn't nailed down.

And even an Island or two, as the Irish found out.

If they liked it, they shoulda put a ring around it

Actually, one of the NPCs my group just met is an Elf that's in the Irish Republic Army in Exile (IRAiE). You know he's got to be tough to stay with that crowd and have pointy ears!

Yeah. That's it. You repeatedly use the wrong words (like "forever" and "immortal"), and then you get snarky, sarcastic, smug, and dismissive when someone calls on it, and act like they're the stupid one. Neat trick. For someone that's been so wrong so consistently in this thread, you're being awful rude.

Even after folks have expressed confusion as to the accuracy of your statements, and those statements were corrected, you've continued to use "forever" and "immortal" as a means of making your point. Why? If your argument is valid, shouldn't it be able to stand while you use, y'know, the right words? Why keep on purposefully saying the wrong thing, then snapping at anyone who goes by what you actually say instead of magically guessing about what your intention was?

All I'm saying is that you should probably use the appropriate word, to stop exaggerating your point. "Long-lived" would be appropriate, for instance.