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yesferatu
So I might just suck at NPCs, but I'd like to incorporate more 6th world slang into my runs.
I've been going over Big Knobi Klub's glossary, but it's just not coming together.

How would you suggest adding more 6th world flavor to games?
There's gotta be more to it than fraking chummers in the hoop.
eidolon
Heh, I'm the wrong dude to ask. I felt like posting just because I like the silly old lingo. I never "enforce(d)" it, and it wasn't like you couldn't use RL slang and stuff, but I always felt like it was a fun part of the SR world.

Cue the "the old stuff was retarded" crew. wink.gif
Yerameyahu
Even if it was retarded, it's now 'retro' and 'ironic', which makes it okay. biggrin.gif
Megu
Yeah, I tended to limit use of "chummer" and the like, and flat-out avoided the "frag" and all that because frankly, it sounds like Man We've Got To Keep Our PG Rating lingo. If you are killing people for the Mob you should be able to say "fucking" and not wince. "Drek" is about the only one I kept, largely for its ork-cultural linkage and all that, but people will say "shit" and the like as well.

The twist I put on things, though, was that since my game was set in Minneapolis-St. Paul, whereas Seattle had a bunch of Japanese inspired slang, I ended up pulling things from the Hmong language instead (that being a big cultural component of the sprawl)

khwv khwv literally someone who works very hard, the intimation being that they have to, they're not doing it because they're workaholics and it's fun; for SR, used as a pejorative for a wageslave

menyuam laij literally "kids who mill/wander around", used IRL to refer to low level gang stuff; I had the people on shadownet chats use it as a pejorative for criminal elements lower on the food chain that runners perceived as less "pro" than themselves

siab phem lit. evil liver; applies to somebody especially mean and ruthless. In the shadows, often actually said as a term of respect

Things like this. Whatever the local sprawl you're in, drawing on local culture and flavor can be a boon.
Neurosis
Over ten years of playing I have finally managed to, in my roleplaying, fuse Shadowrun slang and real-life speech patterns (and for 4E, real life profanity) with it not sounding retarded...at least 75% of the time. The problem I have as a GM is getting my players...who are even after a nearly two-years-running campaign, nowhere near as steeped in the lore and the language as I am...to use the lingo. It is less they consciously think about its silliness and more that they just slip into real-life slang because they've been speaking it all their lives. I really wish they'd lingo it up, though. It really just makes everything feel more shadowrunny.
codemonkey_uk
Using the lingo is part of the RP, and much easier for GMs to NPC, since you have the chance to prepare.

Harder for players. And hilarious when they stumble. Even if they know their character, getting players to RP a con or fast talk is just awesome. Had a player (who is British catholic middle class) last night, in On The Run, try to RP the con/fast talk of his ex-cop runner disguised as an ork gangster. He sounded like he thought he was in a 50 jazz movie. It was awful and hilarious at the same time.

Anyway. rotfl.gif
CanRay
I like the lingo and jargon, but I tend to confuse my Players when I use it.

It's also hard to use with my bad Irish accent.
Semerkhet
I didn't like the "substitute for profanity" lingo twenty years ago and I don't like it now. The only time I've seen it done well is when Firefly used Mandarin for their cursing. Using silly made-up words like drek and frag doesn't put me in character, it takes me out. If trying to get your players to use the slang makes them feel awkward, you are probably lowering the fun quotient, not raising it.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 2 2010, 03:53 PM) *
Cue the "the old stuff was retarded" crew. wink.gif

So in a topic that can only be a series of statements of personal opinion you are preemptively trying to invalidate a whole category of those opinions. Very classy.
CanRay
Stay classy, internets!
Neurosis
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 25 2010, 12:31 PM) *
I didn't like the "substitute for profanity" lingo twenty years ago and I don't like it now. The only time I've seen it done well is when Firefly used Mandarin for their cursing. Using silly made-up words like drek and frag doesn't put me in character, it takes me out. If trying to get your players to use the slang makes them feel awkward, you are probably lowering the fun quotient, not raising it.


Drek is yiddish for shit, chief. Is yiddish somehow innately less valid than Mandarin?
Mr. Mage
I've been watching Farscape lately and some of the lingo from there has been slipping into my SR games (and my everyday speech for that matter)
Example: Frell is pretty much the same as Fuck and Dren is pretty much the same as Shit....I can understand me saying Dren in SR, since it sounds kind of like Drek, but I have no idea how I keep getting away with Frell....maybe cuz it sound like hell?
Neurosis
Maybe it's just the opposite of familiarity breeding contempt, but Frell and Dren seem much worse than Frag and Drek to me.
Saint Sithney
I like Frell. It's like a contraction of Fucking hell.
"What the FRELL?!"

Frelling, just doesn't work like that though,
and Dren is sort of crap. It sounds like someone's name.

Though on the other hand, I do like the slang Bruce (from big red switch) for trashing someone's gear.
"Sorry I bruced your bike, Daisy, but next one's headed right between the uprights, so keep still and start talking."
Megu
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 25 2010, 12:28 PM) *
Drek is yiddish for shit, chief. Is yiddish somehow innately less valid than Mandarin?


That's interesting, particularly considering the modern decline of Yiddish in favor of Hebrew. Why would something from Yiddish get picked up by Orzet like that? (Wasn't it said to be Orzet in origin in-game?) Orks in Europe?

Sorry, historical linguistics buff here, so you've got my attention now.
KageZero
Drek was around before the established Or'zet in game.

And frag came from lingo in the Vietnam era. It's where an unpopular officer of a unit was assassinated by his unit by having a fragmentation grenade tossed into his tent/foxhole.
CanRay
Or, if he was really bad, in the latrine. nyahnyah.gif
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 25 2010, 01:28 PM) *
Drek is yiddish for shit, chief. Is yiddish somehow innately less valid than Mandarin?

I was unaware that drek was a real word, but don't let me stop you from taking offense and setting up a strawman in which I denigrated Jewish culture compared to Han Chinese culture.
TheScrivener
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 26 2010, 08:59 AM) *
I was unaware that drek was a real word, but don't let me stop you from taking offense and setting up a strawman in which I denigrated Jewish culture compared to Han Chinese culture.

Ooh ooh! Are we going to play "my historical culture could beat up your historical culture?" Shotgun Hittites!
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (TheScrivener @ Sep 26 2010, 11:45 AM) *
Ooh ooh! Are we going to play "my historical culture could beat up your historical culture?" Shotgun Hittites!


I call Cossacks!
Ghremdal
I know drek is used in the croatian language, probably is used in a lot of other slavic tongues as well. I think it was a german word originally though.

So for us it gets used fairly often.

On topic, I like the unique vocabulary of shadowrun, I think it gives it flavor.
sabs
I call 100BC Rome!
Neurosis
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 26 2010, 09:59 AM) *
I was unaware that drek was a real word, but don't let me stop you from taking offense and setting up a strawman in which I denigrated Jewish culture compared to Han Chinese culture.


A question does not constitute a strawman. I was genuinely curious.

Anyway, to any degree that I was remotely offended (I wasn't) it was because you didn't know that drek was a real word, just because I thought that was something that most people knew.
sabs
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 27 2010, 01:56 AM) *
A question does not constitute a strawman. I was genuinely curious.

Anyway, to any degree that I was remotely offended (I wasn't) it was because you didn't know that drek was a real word, just because I thought that was something that most people knew.


Most people not from the New York tri-state area.. or certain parts of LA where Pastrami is available.. do not tend to know many Yiddish words. or if they do.. they do not know they are Yiddish.

Like I bet he knows bupkus about Yiddish.. but he knows what bupkus means wink.gif
Megu
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 26 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Most people not from the New York tri-state area.. or certain parts of LA where Pastrami is available.. do not tend to know many Yiddish words. or if they do.. they do not know they are Yiddish.

Like I bet he knows bupkus about Yiddish.. but he knows what bupkus means wink.gif


This. I lived in a Jewish neighborhood in the Midwest growing up and nobody knew any Yiddish, not even the Jews.
Platinum
I use some shadowrun slang, but not too much. Frag, drek, jam, and chiptruth, are standard. I use slang terms for "archtypes" when I can, like wizworm, cutter, razorchic, tank, cowboy, etc. Haven't been able to use input / output for sexes. I find slang goes a long way to setting the atmosphere. I don't use cuss words. I find that they are most often used by the unintelligent to not say what they really want to say.

Neurosis
QUOTE
I don't use cuss words. I find that they are most often used by the unintelligent to not say what they really want to say.


Really?

You think so?

You REALLY think so?

You have just happened upon my biggest pet peeve in the entire WORLD.
sabs
Profanity is for illiterate mother fuckers.
CanRay
Ricky ("Trailer Park Boys", Canada's answer to "The Sopranos") trying not to swear in front of a judge is hilarious.
Neurosis
Thanks for reminding me.

About The Sopranos.

It reminded me of the best example ever.
TheScrivener
I've gotta agree with Neurosis - while there's plenty of unintelligent folks using foul language as alternate punctuation, there's real power in swears. Diction and word choice are pretty much my favorite things ever (which says something very sad about me, I suppose) and my working vocabulary is larger than pretty much anyone I know (not a boast, as it gets me in trouble as much as it helps) yet I find cursing to be a valuable and useful skill. If I want to explain that I find a guy smug and supercilious and don't want to talk to him again, and I'm describing him to a close friend, am I going to explain that like I just did here? Maybe.

But i'll probably just call him a "douche canoe." Or a "cunt rug." Perhaps a "cocknaut." Why? Because it conveys the same thing, but with my emotional undertone intact beyond the connotations of the word itself. Plus it gets a laugh. Is it the default mode of expression? No. Is it professional? Hell no. (see that? Emphasis!) But people do it, all the time. You don't have to, but don't pretend it makes you smarter to ignore a segment of the language you speak.
Neurosis
If you were David Milch, creator of Deadwood, the greatest show ever broadcast on television, you might call him a "smug, supercilious cunt rag". Because that is how he writes. Shakespearean sophistication, diction and syntax combined with the most vile profanity known to man. Like, one sentence was triple inverted and used the word cocksucker four times. <3

"God rest the souls of that poor family... and pussy's half price for the next 15 minutes."


yesferatu
I'm so pleased you mentioned Deadwood.

I think I'd use profanity more for lower classes/street level characters.
It's an easy way to distinguish upper income NPCs and Johnsons from everybody in the gutter.
Neurosis
That's a good idea.

It is not that Johnson WON'T curse, it's just that if the Johnson curses (as opposed to Chris R, your friendly neighborhood ork street dealer) you know you're probably in trouble.
Platinum
QUOTE (TheScrivener @ Sep 27 2010, 01:21 PM) *
I've gotta agree with Neurosis - while there's plenty of unintelligent folks using foul language as alternate punctuation, there's real power in swears. Diction and word choice are pretty much my favorite things ever (which says something very sad about me, I suppose) and my working vocabulary is larger than pretty much anyone I know (not a boast, as it gets me in trouble as much as it helps) yet I find cursing to be a valuable and useful skill. If I want to explain that I find a guy smug and supercilious and don't want to talk to him again, and I'm describing him to a close friend, am I going to explain that like I just did here? Maybe.

But i'll probably just call him a "douche canoe." Or a "cunt rug." Perhaps a "cocknaut." Why? Because it conveys the same thing, but with my emotional undertone intact beyond the connotations of the word itself. Plus it gets a laugh. Is it the default mode of expression? No. Is it professional? Hell no. (see that? Emphasis!) But people do it, all the time. You don't have to, but don't pretend it makes you smarter to ignore a segment of the language you speak.


Whether you agree or not, what I said is true. It is most often used by the unintelligent in place of expressing what they really want to express.

Using $50 words to debase someone is much more effective than swearing at someone. You have the added bonus of making them feel stupid because they don't know what you are talking about.

Swearing does have its place. I agree. I used to swear when I really wanted to point out that I was angry. Sometimes it's funny to mix in cussing to add humour. Yet again, most of the time it is used as filler, or in place of meaningful language. /derail thread
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Platinum @ Sep 28 2010, 01:04 PM) *
Whether you agree or not, what I said is true. It is most often used by the unintelligent in place of expressing what they really want to express.

Using $50 words to debase someone is much more effective than swearing at someone. You have the added bonus of making them feel stupid because they don't know what you are talking about.

Swearing does have its place. I agree. I used to swear when I really wanted to point out that I was angry. Sometimes it's funny to mix in cussing to add humour. Yet again, most of the time it is used as filler, or in place of meaningful language. /derail thread


Mreh. The trouble with a $10 word for a $1 situation is that more often than not you're going to have to explain your insult and that tends to soften the metaphorical blow.

Or lead you to actual blows, which could be cathartic but lead to a doctor's bill - or a fine ribeye if that happens to be more affordable. Plus, you can eat the bandage after the swelling goes down!

...

Y'know what, I think that going to blows is ging to be the situation that brings the most benefit.
CanRay
There's also the fact that the more complex the word, the more likely you're the one to use or say it wrong.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 28 2010, 01:57 PM) *
There's also the fact that the more complex the word, the more likely you're the one to use or say it wrong.


Case in point: Punctilious troglodyte. >.>
Prime Mover
You know being around kids all day and working in a very public place in evenings, cussing is frowned upon. I probably use FRAG at least once a day just to satisfy a need to let it out.

You'd be surprised the looks you can get using Frag with the right tone and inflection. "Frag Me!"
They stand there for a minute blankly wondering if there finer sensibilities should be offended or not.
Dumori
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 27 2010, 05:48 PM) *
Really?

You think so?

You REALLY think so?

You have just happened upon my biggest pet peeve in the entire WORLD.

Agreed Stephen Fry summed it up nicely by calling all of that point of view fucking morons.

Profanity is a perfect means to get points and views across.

While long winded insults are fun. Profanity works on a different level. You can't angrily user flowery language and not look like an uptight dickwad.

QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 28 2010, 03:05 PM) *
Case in point: Punctilious troglodyte. >.>

Wait what? troglodyte works as an insult but punctilious. If some one called me that I'd laugh. Meticulous a meticulous cave dweller? Yeah sure that stings.
TheScrivener
Ah, but this is where the shades of meaning come in. "punctilious" has a connotation of obsession, or excessive attention to unimportant details, not simple meticulousness. A "meticulous primitive" or "attentive atavist" would make no sense as an insult, but "punctilious troglodyte" says you're rearranging the furniture in your cave because it's off by an inch, while outside the modern world passes you by. As stated, the effectiveness diminishes when people don't get the words, or at least the connotations. The point of insulting or colorful language is to *communicate* something, not simply to vocab-wank yourself. Personally, if I insult someone, they may or may not understand *all* the words, but they'll know they've been fucking *told*.

In an attempt to link back to the original topic: The cyberpunk lingo generally works only when it's used in context. If your players have to constantly look up words in a glossary or give each other translations of the slang they're using, you're being similarly ineffective. Which is why swearing is one of the easier ways to put in slang, since from context it's easily understood. I like to have certain NPCs whose nearly impenetrable jargon makes them understandable solely from context and cadence, but not too many of them, as it can get old fast (and is tough to roleplay on the fly!) most of the time, though, even getting my players to *speak* in character is an accomplishment, so who cares what words they use?
Dumori
QUOTE (TheScrivener @ Sep 28 2010, 03:49 PM) *
Ah, but this is where the shades of meaning come in. "punctilious" has a connotation of obsession, or excessive attention to unimportant details, not simple meticulousness. A "meticulous primitive" or "attentive atavist" would make no sense as an insult, but "punctilious troglodyte" says you're rearranging the furniture in your cave because it's off by an inch, while outside the modern world passes you by. As stated, the effectiveness diminishes when people don't get the words, or at least the connotations. The point of insulting or colorful language is to *communicate* something, not simply to vocab-wank yourself. Personally, if I insult someone, they may or may not understand *all* the words, but they'll know they've been fucking *told*.

In an attempt to link back to the original topic: The cyberpunk lingo generally works only when it's used in context. If your players have to constantly look up words in a glossary or give each other translations of the slang they're using, you're being similarly ineffective. Which is why swearing is one of the easier ways to put in slang, since from context it's easily understood. I like to have certain NPCs whose nearly impenetrable jargon makes them understandable solely from context and cadence, but not too many of them, as it can get old fast (and is tough to roleplay on the fly!) most of the time, though, even getting my players to *speak* in character is an accomplishment, so who cares what words they use?

I got the other layers but that insult I just it find it funny, unoffencive and weak. It the kind of thing your stick up arse better than thou person would say when mildly peeved. I don't know if being British effects my insults and how I view them that much but it seams to.

As for the lingo Slot is easy to fit in. It dosen't need explaining in game it just works if you say it right. YOu can get it ca mean sex or muder or just loading a chip/blt from context Frag is weak now manly due to the gaming conertaions it seams quite out there. Drek works as a cuss its not a replacement for shit but it can substitute it in places. The more setting specific slang also works quite well. From 'link and jack to more out there but still sensable stuff like razor(pronoun) ect.
vladthebad
I love using lingo but I know some players who hate it, specifically "chummer". For me it confers the culture of shadowrun, and using it with NPCs gives the signal that crime has its own tribal speech. I don't force my players to talk in slang but I give a bonus karma to those who give it a go, because they contributing to the texture of the story.

As for expanding the lexicon, I like Tolkien's philosophy. Its fine to have an etymology for your slang but the most important part is that it sounds natural.

Some favs: vid, wiz, nova, geek, drek, omae, so-ka, frag, fuck, feck, flip, burn, slot, skag, meat, meatbag

I like to add new words in that the players might not know, just as long as they can inference the meaning. Even if the players don't know what it means, using if you use the lingo well it can still make them feel like there is a complex vibrant world in your story.

oh yeah, I am stealing "douche canoe" biggrin.gif
Platinum
Great post vladthebad ^^

QUOTE (TheScrivener @ Sep 28 2010, 10:49 AM) *
In an attempt to link back to the original topic: The cyberpunk lingo generally works only when it's used in context. If your players have to constantly look up words in a glossary or give each other translations of the slang they're using, you're being similarly ineffective. Which is why swearing is one of the easier ways to put in slang, since from context it's easily understood. I like to have certain NPCs whose nearly impenetrable jargon makes them understandable solely from context and cadence, but not too many of them, as it can get old fast (and is tough to roleplay on the fly!) most of the time, though, even getting my players to *speak* in character is an accomplishment, so who cares what words they use?


How often do your players have to look up terms, let alone re-look up? It's not like they are constantly encountering new terms. You explain once to them and move on. Most of the time they grab the meaning from context and won't have to explain. Half the time you can use "blah", in place of a word and they'll still understand what you mean.

I don't think anyone really cares what words they use as long as it helps with the setting. Personally I find the slang more effective than just plain swearing. Plain swearing kind of sets a post-punk genre that shadowrun is now instead of the retro slang that has the gritty cyberpunk association.
yesferatu
Specifically I'm trying to give each group of NPCs unique identifying language.
It's more important that I plan out conversations and stick to it.

Normally, I just make up dialog on the fly, which is probably a mistake.
vladthebad
Yeah I write out my scene dialog as much as I can, as I am not as adept at using the slang on the fly. For NPCs I also make up a catch phrase or two, just like the old contacts write-ups in 1st ed.
Neurosis
QUOTE
Agreed Stephen Fry summed it up nicely by calling all of that point of view fucking morons.

Profanity is a perfect means to get points and views across.

While long winded insults are fun. Profanity works on a different level. You can't angrily user flowery language and not look like an uptight dickwad.


WOWY. I wish we had you on some other forums I frequent.

Anyway, I will agree to /derail.

Chummer/omae (how the fuck do you pronounce omae?) is very hard to use consistently. Words like bro, dude, pal, nigga, etc. really want to come off the tongue more.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 28 2010, 08:39 PM) *
WOWY. I wish we had you on some other forums I frequent.

Anyway, I will agree to /derail.

Chummer/omae (how the fuck do you pronounce omae?) is very hard to use consistently. Words like bro, dude, pal, nigga, etc. really want to come off the tongue more.


oh-may is how I always used it.
Neurosis
We waffle between oh-may and oh-meye.
vladthebad
I use the second one. I think that each syllable tends to get pronounced equally even when it's two vowel fragments strung together. Full disclosure though, I know next to nothing about Japanese smile.gif
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