The Arsenal description of the Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon describes "massive recoil".
Where?

Have I missed something, or is there in fact no recoil at all unless you shell out for the semi-automatic, in which case it's 1 point of recoil doubled to 2 for being a heavy weapon? I don't get it.

You haven't missed it. Maybe the "massive recoil" is what made it stock a SS weapon.

That, and you can't exactly fire it one-handed while running, for example. Those restrictions are basically from recoil, just not Recoil.

You are correct.

Always look at converting to a mini-gun. Much better bang for the buck!

A Minigun Shotgun... Too brutal to contemplate, but nothing creates more bang for your buck in my opinion...

The massive recoil is flavor text, unfortunately, and an attempt to appeal to the common sense of the sillier players who might want to treat it as anything other than the massive anti-material weapon it is. Unfortunately the game doesn't include mechanics to accurately model such weapons.

Another thing is the Concealability is less than nil. Of course if a character is using an assualt cannon, stealth isn't on the menu...

This is where GM common sense comes into play. Of course that thing can kick you to teh ground if not held right and it is not hard to come up with a quick rule to go with the fluff.

There's an optional rule in Arsenal that firing large weapons like that deals stun damage to the firer unless their body is over a certain number. Or something like that.

Stating they can fire without a gyromount if they have body 8 or more, and must take stun dv equal to half the dv of the weapon.

That is OPTIONAL rule for heavy weapons..
(rule says is need Body AND Str be 8 or more fire/carry Heavy Weapons)
(That rule means saying GOOBYE! to Ares Alpha/Colt M23..)

No it wouldn't, because an under-barrel grenade launcher is technically a weapon accessory, not a weapon itself.

Denoting what a "Heavy Weapon" actually is, is something that Arsenal should have specified.

Utilizing this rule simply means exercising common sense. It was horribly underwritten. Anyone should be able to fire a "heavy weapon" using a bipod from the prone or having it braced on something without risking damage. But, at the same time, a shoulder fired grenade launcher isn't some kind of horribly unwieldy beast that would need a gyro mount and shouldn't fall under the same rule as a machinegun or an assault cannon.

Yeah, that rule is so badly written i can't comprehend how it got added to the book.
Considering that its saying you need superhuman strenght and body to fire a pistol grenade launcher, makes that rule silly beyond belief

Yes, I'm aware of that. I was responding to the post directly above mine. The one saying "An optional rule in arsenal.."

how do you figure?
Trolls can do that just fine O.o

There is no rule against using flechettes in regular firearms...

Not everyone's a troll, Stahlseele, and there are plenty of trolls not big and strong enough to do that.

Not quite you could slap on a scope and a silencer and have a pretty nasty sniper just using heavy weapons not long arms plus gauss-rifle. That's likely a better build full stop with the some being able to be uses like an 250 round AR with no recoil. in fact heavy weapons almost covers all your combat bases bar small and concealable so grab pistols as well if needed automatic could work too but a load of redundancy.

*shrugs* not my problem, i play big and strong trolls for fun like this ^^

I've always considered the assault cannons to be sniper rifles for use against armored vehicles (or trolls).

I think of them as 50 Cal Sniper Rifles.. like this one:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...ved=0CC0Q9QEwAg

I consider assult cannons 20mm+ Anti-tank rifles, liek the Lahti L39 or the Type 97.

Massive, Impractical, and about the smallest caliber you are going to find explosive shells as standard (which makes it a cannon)

Pretty much.

http://www.vincelewis.net/20mm.html (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXLRYf9EV2Y ) Of course, this puppy is a two man (one troll I guess) carry, lol

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photo..._200481522.aspx

Haha, Stahlseele. I didn't say it was your problem, but obviously not all trolls and basically no one else can 1-hand/unbraced fire an assault cannon.

but then, if you're allowed to have that kind of fun, nothing much else matters anyway ^^

If you look at range increments as a function of power and accuracy it also works out as well.

Category - Short - Medium - Long - Extreme
L. Machine Gun - 75 - 200 - 400 - 800
Sporting Rifle - 100 - 250 - 500 - 750
H. Machine Gun - 80 - 250 - 750 - 1200
Assault Cannon - 100 - 300 - 750 - 1500
Sniper Rifle - 150 - 350 - 800 - 1500

Remember, folks, this was the original inspiration for the Shadowrun assault cannon:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2376/600pxvlcsnap205401.jpg

"Cobra assault cannon, state-of-the-art bang bang!"



-karma

Still looks like tha Barret Again . .

Scaled-up, though, which is a big difference. The key Assault Cannon difference is the explosive ('light tank') shells, as someone mentioned earlier.

I've always envisioned assault cannons as being somewhere in the .50 caliber/14.5mm range. Technical advancement in an attempt to improve the old 85 pound M2HB has already given us a 50-odd pound, .50 cal machinegun with recoil comparable to that of a .30 cal M240B (albeit at 260 RPM), in the form of the XM312. Add another 65 years of development time and more ceramic/composite/carbon-fiber parts, I don't see a reason why that weight (especially with the replacement of the heavy optics/computer unit with a much more compact smartlink and some optimization for being shoulder-fired rather than tripod-mounted) wouldn't get down into the 30-35 pound range... something that a cybered human or burly ork/troll should be able to fire from the shoulder without serious problems.

Lessee here... assault cannon, add Burst Fire (to represent a low ROF like the aforementioned 260 RPM/~4.3 RPS... maybe even allow a Long Burst as a complex action to indicate it's technically capable of autofire), an extended magazine, and a personalized grip as mods, then a Top-mount Smartgun Link, a sling, a shoulder shock pad, and an Underbarrel foregrip, and you've got a decent cyborg battle rifle with enough recoil comp that someone burly enough to use it (Str 6 is where I'm thinking it'd start to be manageable) can fire a couple of bursts with only a -2 penalty on the second burst (4 points of RC including strength, first round is free, 1 point uncompensated x2 for heavy weapon). Gets that extra punch you need for dealing with Hardened armor...

But there's already a .50 cal Barrett sniper rifle in the Sniper Rifles section. The art and fluff imply that it's more than that, plus special ammo. Otherwise, you'd just load AC ammo into your sniper rifle, right?

I always thought the assault cannons are based on the WWII anti-tank rifles or recoilless rifles. 20 mm is a nice caliber for those.

Well, not a recoilless. That's a whole nother animal.

It IS the Barret.

The Robocop movie used a Barret as their "Cobra Assault Rifle".

The original SR assault cannon was inspired by the Cobra. Similar to how the original Predator heavy pistol was inspired by the Robocop Auto-9.

The Barrett didn't actually appear in Shadowrun as the AMR/Sniper Rifle we have now til a bit later. By which point the Assault Cannon had been more or less re-envisioned as the monster gun we have currently.



-karma

Yeah, the Model 121 was Fields of Fire. Quite amusing commentary that suggested the weapon's silencer could make it completely silent, lol.

Honestly, I see them as something much closer to the Barrett XM109.

Single Shot, throws a 25mm cannon shell (explosive!) up to 2000 meters, and has a semi-auto capacity, with 4 round box. The XM312 is basically one rechambered for .50 cal.

Besides, most .50 cal automatic weapons are HMGs, so that puts .50 cal at 7P, AP -3. (HMGs are defined as between 12-15mm)


The thing is, the Barret 121 used to only be able to fire a special subsonic ex-ex, which was factored into it's stats. It wasn't special in that it was absurdly powerful, it was special because it was absurdly silent.

Sure, but a Shotgun has a higher base damage than MOST regular weapons... 7p (9pf) for the win... In a minigun with suppressive fire that goes to 10p (12pf)... so much more effective than a similarly modded Heavy Pistol Round... and is equal to MMG's in base damage...

Anyways... I think that a Shotgun-Minigun is cooler than any other option out there...

Yeah, think 20mm, 25mm or 30mm Cannons... Devastating...

A shotgun-minigun isn't an option.

But it would be glorious indeed if it were...
And technologically speaking, not really all that difficult, though it would require designing it from the ground up of course...

Even though it came along long after SR, I think this is the best matchup for the SR assault cannon.

Barret M109

More from Wikipedia here.

I am scared of this gun and I am scared of you. I am also going to give this exact ridiculous frankengun to the Cyberzombie who is essentially the final boss of my campaign. : )

It's a Heavy Weapon, so you'll need to be burlier than just Strength 6 if you're using that rule. Also, can't use sling and shock pad together (kinda hip pad territory anyway; still incompatible). Don't forget that the Panther has integral smartgun, though.

Still, if you really need 12P/-5… only 135¥ (16F) per burst! Cheaper and easier to find than AV rockets, I guess, once you fire it enough to overcome the initial investment. (A Striker for 1000¥ also needs +1000¥ for the rocket, right?)

On the other hand, (narrow) burst fire isn't getting you through anyone's armor, net hits are (and that huge AP, of course). So, you're only getting -2 to their Dodge pool from that burst. :/

The Vigorous certainly looks more like the Barrett than the Panther does; I think it's fluffed as 'more traditional' or whatever.

A cyborg wielding that weapon is likely to have a gyromount as well.




-karma

A cyborg should be driving a tank anyway.

PAC images available in SSC p60, Cannon Companion p34, or here (backup link). No trace of Barrett in the design that I can see.

~J

I did mention it's a cyberzombie, right? No lack for Strength/Heavy weapons and he does indeed have a gyromount and his current weapon is an FN-Mag 5.

I'm just gonna upgrade to Shrike's autocannon. Wouldn't be fair to turn it on the PCs too much but turning elite mooks into a red mist should make the point of how horrifyingly deadly this guy is.

The Panther was the second assault cannon and debuted in the Street Samurai Catalog. The original was just called "Assault Cannon" and was in the core book.

Modify a grenade launcher for full auto, with a smartlink, and gas vent 2. Add a Airburst Link. I'm not sure exactly what would happen (increase DV? actually roll scatter per grenade?), and with current scatter rules it's not that important, I guess. Except when you decide to use Suppresive Fire.

You can do the same with a Missile Launcher, by the way. The Fleshe Hail Barrage missile launcher is a good choice.