But you could BF the S&S.

No you couldn't... I mean, yes technically you could but why would it give you the +2 Damage Bonus? Your not getting more damage due to more trauma from 3 bullets hitting you in an area, your getting the same shock 3 different times. SnS has a fixed damage where regular rounds inflict damage based upon the skill of the user and how much of a volley you shoot at the target.

You'll find that's a minority opinion. If you choose to use that house rule, you must clearly state it when discussing the rules with other people like this.

Would you prefer that a burst of S&S count as 3 separate attacks? The math is even worse on that route, and the logic is no more supportable than arguing that a burst of normal bullets should be 3 separate attacks.

You do realize that All Modern Assault Rifles have greater effective ranges than the piddly range listed in Shadowrun with lower FPS than you are spouting at the muzzle right? Hell, as a Marine you qualify at 500 meters with the M16/M4, which should tell you that the Ranges for weapons in Shadowrun are not really accurate at all...

And, in 60 Years, who knows what kind of weapons we will have (I would be willing to bet that you are not a weapons designer for the Government)... Physics may not change, but weapons sure will, you can bet on that...

Exactly. It has been said on this forum (and we're quoting it from someone else... physicist or philosopher from a while back IIRC) that, given enough advancement of technology, the easiest way to describe it is magic. Or rather, it becomes indistinguishable from magic.

Think of the conversation in the Law of Nines by Terry Goodkind between Jax and Alexander in the food place, when Jax first mentions she comes from a world of magic.

Ah so? Why not just use a Salvalette Guardian, though? It already has BF. And it has RC.

(Salvalette Guardian is my favorite gun ftr. I know it may not be technically the best, but it's still my favorite.)

The quote is Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd rule of prediction. I forget the second rule, but the first rule basically says that anytime a respected scientist says something is possible he's almost certainly right but if he says something is flatly impossible he's probably wrong.

Anyway, getting upset with people like Toturi is frankly pointless since their stance is that IRL physics are at best the inspiration for how the SR world works, not its true foundation and that in any case it's irrelevant since the RAW is the last word on what happens in the game world, not real life experiences. Thus whether Newton would be able to predict the results of a combat turn is neither here nor there. Ultimately it becomes an agree to disagree issue since some people are approaching the gaming table from fundamentally different perspective. My only wish is that people would quit resorting to name calling when sorting out their preferences. It's frankly a bit silly-- rather akin to getting in a pissing match over whether reading "soft" or "hard" sci-fi is a better way to spend your afternoon.

Greater ranges? Not really. Marines qualify at 500 yards, which is actually only 457m. The effective range of an M16 with the 20 inch barrel is actually 550m for a point target, which is likely why they chose that number when they wrote the rules for the game. Can they shoot farther than that? Sure. Could you even hit targets farther than that? Sure. But even scoring hits at 550m is pretty difficult. An AK-47 only has an effective range of around 3-400m. So if there was going to be an arbitrary number assigned to assault rifles, 550m seems acceptable and hardly piddly.

Oh, and 2800-3200 fps is the muzzle velocity for a 20 inch barrel 5.56 rifle depending on ammunition type. If you drop too much lower than that, effective ranges will drop as well. For example, part of the AK47s lower effective range comes from its muzzle velocities closer to 2400 fps firing a slightly heavier round.

Sure, for Shadowrun, the ranges are probably a little on the low side. With the developments of new and better calibers and propellants, I doubt 5.56N will the standard rifle cartridge in 60 years. However, despite better ballistics, the weak point of every weapon is the man firing it. And at 550m, a person is a pretty small target to hit. So even with a better, flatter trajectory round like, say 6.5 Grendel or the like, you're really not going to increase range too significantly for battlefield applications. It's still a small round and at the mercy of the wind. So if they were going to choose an arbitrary maximum range for assault rifles, 550m isn't terrible. Nobody should really be engaging at that range anyway. Even for a skilled marksman that's a hell of a shot with any cartridge on anything but a stationary target.

You mean it's 2072 and the bullets STILL don't use targeting lasers and fins for course correction?

One would think that if they can have a safety system that keeps the weapon from firing when it's pointed at a friendly, they could make a system that causes the system to fire when it's pointed at a valid target on the tacnet and pass that targeting information into the bullet for course adjustment.

I'm really disappointed in this future. I can drive a hamster wheel around town but my gun is still in the 20th century.

All very creative, I'll give you that. Not sure about the feasibility of some of your ideas tho...

None of them are available in the rules, for one. Have to ask the GM to stat them all up for you.

And some of them just wouldn't work as described. Very creative tho...

A bullet travels to fast to relay much back and forth with a gun. Also, the bullet would have to have complicated sensors. That would take a degree of miniturization not available in the Shadowrun world.

It works for artillery shells, though. Stat it up.

I can fit a Laser Rangefinder and Ultrawideband Radar in a pair of contact lenses along with a processor, antenna, and display. Oh, and I can store the entire Library of Congress on them as well. The dang things even come with a firewall.

Um. No, you can't.

/agree.


Close. Thermographic Imaging, Low-Light Optics, Smartlink (which is itself a rangefinder and ballistics computer, plus other factors), and Ultrasound (not Ultrawideband) I think can fit, and they come already with a System, Firewall, Response, and Signal. And additional storage space - enough to fit the Library of Congress. In fact, my character's favorite playlists are stored on his survival dagger.

EDIT: Remove Low-Light and add Image Link. That way you at least still keep some important versatility.

I get a pair Defiance EX Shockers and shoot the same guy twice, thats 2*8S(e)+nethits. I think that troll is going down and i was carrying a pair of totally legal weapons, unlike you.
Or if i'm a gunslinger instead of a face, i shoot 2 different trolls and possibly take them both down in the time it took you to over kill that one troll.

Defiance EX Shocker are really good for those character that aren't the main combotant, actually only reason why my Sasha doesn't have a pair with her is that i changed her arm slide guns into hold-outs with S&S, becouse tasers are little to big for my liking.

I hate to disagree with you because you' should be right, but 4e tossed miniaturization plausibility out the window with multi-function contact lenses with wireless capabilities, lol.

Okay brudder, I'll bite. Just how big is the dice pool you're splitting there that you stand a chance of staging that attack enough to drop two trolls? The average troll has like 13 CM boxes.

For Physical Damage, Tasers do Stun. The Stun condition monitor isn't any better than a human's, so 9-11. I also think the taser will be modded for SA so you don't even need to use two.

Oh. Yes, yes I see.

Still easier to use machine pistol with Stick'n'Shock. No need to modify and you have a much larger ammo capacity. And can burst fire. You lose the two points compared to the Ex Shocker but you can also fire twice a turn by default, and if you really need to drop a troll, there's Short Narrow Burst for that.

Shooting a Taser is a simple action, as opposed to complex action to shoot full burst, so no need to split the dice pool as i can get one attack against both trolls as two different actions.The two tasers where for getting around the SS fire mode and to provide more ammo. Also i would rather mod 2 of them with additional clip then take one and mod it for SA.
But for a true gunslinger with lets say 24 dice pool (10 agility + 10 skill + spec + smartlink) that leaves 12 dice per hand, should be enought to hit a troll and two attacks will definitely take one down, no need for staging up as 2*9S(e) should be enought.

anyone without R6 non-conductivity is an idiot.

Depends if your running with the optional rules for modifications. With a limit in place things like thermographic shielding become more important to a infiltrator or even chemseals and such can be important.

I'm moving towards house ruling it with my group that the base damage is the base damage and cant be raised through net hits, it will balance out the damage potential while staying true to the fluff of them being nonlethal legal takedowns.

Ridiculously high infiltration skill? Check
Chameleon Suit? Check
Themal Dampening on Chameleon Suit? Check

If I'm in a situation where I'm going to get tazed or shot with SnS. I fucked up bad.

That Defiance Ex Shocker has a range of 20 meters though (it has 20m wires attached to the electrodes, so it can deliver that 8Se)
My TMP Machine Pistol has a range of 50m. Though admitedly they both move out of point blank range at 5m.
But lets say I'm using an SMG I have a range of 150 to your 20. You're inside the movement rate of said trolls. I'm not.

20m is plenty enought for an inside of a building(as is 5m:s most of the time), if im not inside of a building i rather had something with longer range then 150m like maybe an assault rifle and at that point a good shooter is dropping one target per IP just as well with EX-EX then S&S.

Yes S&S burst might have a better damage potential, but thats mostly goes straight up to over kill while EX-EX or possibly even regular ammo kills the target just fine in same amount of time.

S&S and EX-EX/APDS are just as good in actual takedown capasity, unless the target has some absurd compination of armor values, and works just as well against drones, unlike S&S

Yes, but the targets you took out with ex-ex/apds are dead.
Where are the S&S targets are not, and they went down faster because they're going up against the stun monitor which is /much/ smaller than the physical monitor.

Not to mention if they failed the twitch roll.

Dead is incapacitated. Unless I have a reason to keep them alive it doesn't matter to me if they go down from physical or stun damage.

Wait what? Against an AVERAGE opponent, the stun and physical track will be of identical size (ignoring metatype modifiers to stats).

I was specifically refering to the two Trolls

Stun monitor would be roughly 9-10
Physical Monitor would be roughly 10-12

Unless you can take down one target per simple action, it's not faster

I can't?
Laser rangefinger is a capacity 1.
Ultrawideband is a capacity 2.
Contacts lenses can have a capacity of 1-3 and come with everything else mentioned as matrix devices. What am I misunderstanding?

(Note: I'm not claiming to understand why ultrawideband only takes up capacity 2. I figure it does that because it's in the same book as the med kit and emotitoy)

Contact Lenses and Glasses can only have vision enhancements and their rating refers to how many of those they can have, and not "capacity'



Things lsted as Vision enhancements:
Flare Compensation
Image link
Low-Light Vision
Smartlink
Thermographic Vision
Ultrasound

and that's it

Bullets can drain a stun track faster than stun damage, especially on trolls which will likely have higher armor and more likely to force damage onto the stun track. Thus you are still better off using bullets to drop them faster.

There's Capacity, suoq, and then there's Capacity. Contacts max out at 3 Capacity for Visual Enhancements; the mods you listed are Sensors.

Ultrasound does work, Neraph, but the Smartlink doesn't have a laser rangerfinder; the smart*gun* does. Yes, the contacts are silly either way.

StealthSigma, better off using bullets than what? Not S&S.

Ah, I see. My bad o the wording confusion. (It's device rating and rating all over again!)

Dang. Now I have to attempt to re-figure out cybereyes. Do the get capacity, capacity, or both?

CyberEyes have "Capacity" for cyber-eye subsystems. (Which can also be purchased for your actual eyes, at the cost of essense)

Eyercording Unit
Flare Comp
Imagelink
Low-Light
Occular Drone (per eye, only cyber eyes)
Protective Covers
Retinal Duplicaton
Thermo
Vision Enhancement
Vision Mag

So you still can't put Ultra wide into your eyes.
and apprently not ultrasound.. weird

Looks like ultrasound is an option for cyberears.

then why is it an option for Contacts
and not earbuds

Because contact lenses are evil. I have no other explanation.

Not Ultrasound vision, though. It's Headware, you can stash it in a limb.

I assume that Ultrasound vision isn't intended to be an Enhancement, either; the cyberware listing calls it 'Ultrasound sensor', and the description on p333 says that it has an emitter and receiver. But *shrug*, that's what GMs are for. I probably wouldn't allow it in Contacts.

It doesn't go in earbuds or cyberears because it's not hearing. It's radar, using sound instead of radio waves. You can get increased aural range in earbuds and cyberears, though.

Oh I see
The Ultrasound in the contacts, is actually a sensor you wear on your clothing, that sends signals to the contacts for display. So that's actually perfectly cool.

It *should* be, anyway. It's clearly a Sensor and not an Enhancement, but it's listed under Enhancements (which means it can be one of the Contacts' 3 mods). Sensors go in Sensor packages (which you can velcro to yourself), and it's all interconnected in your PAN; once you've got the right Sensors, you just Image Link or Trode them into your head. *shrug* So, you can GM-interpret that Contacts with Ultrasound 'in them' have a wireless external emitter/receiver, or you can GM-houserule that US is a Sensor; either way, you *do* get Ultrasound.

Hmmm. For the bullet I need to go with a microdrone. I'll go with the Microskimmer since I can't find a good flyer.
4 slots. (Can't take limited mobility so we'll keep self propulsion)
improved sensor array (1 slots) giving me the laser rangefinder and ultrawideband again.
Self Destruct Temination system (2 slots) [blast damage with a DV of 14P(f ), AP +5, and a Blast value of –1/m to everyone outside the vehicle].
Gecko Tips. (1 slot) just to be a complete bastard.

Ok. It's a 3900 self-propelled fragmentation grenade with +2 dice of damage, no scatter, pilot 3 and hard to see and hit, and it will stick to the underside of whatever. Next time I need someone killed I know how I'm doing it.

(I'm not claiming this is by RAW. I'm just claiming I don't know which RAW it breaks.)

All of thems. Hehe. Certainly there could be tiny suicide-bomber drones in the setting: it's the Dragonfly C-12 version (2500¥, 12R, ultrasound, 10P/-2), and it's mini-sized.

Not good enough. Micro-drone or bust.

Minor point, but when dual-wielding you lose the smartlink bonus. I mean, while firing both weapons at the same time, not dual-wielding the smart way and "taking turns" with your guns.

That's my point, StealthSigma. Micro is too small; it's not even clear if microdrones can fly, and you need room for the explosive, plus the tiny sensors. Like all I said, all the RAWs.

I know that, but the spec is added after the split making up for the difference.