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Dahrken
They are close but different. If you simply subscribe your smartgun to your comlink, the gun can accept external communications that are directly adressed to it by someone else and can be hacked directly if the attacker is able to communicate with it, so it is wise to disable wireless (permanently or not) in this situation.

By slaving it, the gun flatly refuse anything that does not come from (or appears to come from !) it's master node (usually a comlink) no matter which channel it comes through, leaving a would-be attacker with only two option, hacking the master or spoofing.
Dakka Dakka
I totally forgot that there was a way to put a device into a PAN without slaving it.
Yerameyahu
Don't forget that this only works if your image link is independent (that is, a cybereye or contacts or something), not if you're doing everything through trodes. You also can't use the smartlink on TacNet, which is kinda important. You're also right that the devices can't have wireless, or they're technically 'on the Matrix' whenever possible. frown.gif Crazy Matrix 2.0 mesh rules for you. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 10 2010, 04:27 PM) *
Don't forget that this only works if your image link is independent (that is, a cybereye or contacts or something), not if you're doing everything through trodes.
Why is that?
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 10 2010, 04:27 PM) *
You also can't use the smartlink on TacNet, which is kinda important.
IIRC you can, if you use a simrig.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 10 2010, 04:27 PM) *
You're also right that the devices can't have wireless, or they're technically 'on the Matrix' whenever possible. frown.gif Crazy Matrix 2.0 mesh rules for you. smile.gif
QFT
sabs
Mesh rules are worse. If you have a signal 6 commlink on passive or active mode in the barrens?? Then every wana be hacker is using you as a router to the matrix smile.gif
Yerameyahu
I meant that something can't be both on and off the TacNet at the same time. If your smartlink or simrig is off the TacNet, it can't also be on it. smile.gif If you're using trodes with something wireless, then the whole trodes unit is 'on' the Matrix; you can't say, 'the image link part is offline, but the VR part is online'. biggrin.gif

Technically, it doesn't matter if anyone's using you as a router, because it's all behind the scenes and automatic. But you'd want to be in hidden mode. smile.gif
Neurosis
I do not understand the matrix. : (

QUOTE
Yes and no. The rules are non-existent or vague at best on whether one-way communication is allowed with wireless devices. If it is allowed, then once you exceeded the range of the taser's signal, you would still be able to send commands to it (as long as it is within range of the signal of whatever you're using) but you would get zero feedback information from the device. You won't know when the device is no longer operational or useful and so you could be sending a number of commands that will never be executed.


I could have sworn I read in the rules somewhere that the limiting Signal range is whichever one is LOWER.
Yerameyahu
It is… if you want two-way communication. Not all applications necessarily require that.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 11 2010, 05:36 AM) *
It is… if you want two-way communication. Not all applications necessarily require that.
IIRC the BBB makes no distinction between one-way and two-way communication. Both devices have to be in signal range of one another.
Yerameyahu
Only because there's not really any such thing as one-way in SR4 at all. I thought we were discussing the logical possibility. smile.gif

It's been speculated that Issue Command and Spoof Command are really just one-way, though you wouldn't get feedback. After all, radio-detonators are one-way. Pagers are (basically) one-way. Garage-doors, etc. smile.gif These applications do exist conceptually, and you could certainly allow them in SR.
Neurosis
Well (as a GM, I'm not trying to argue for this as RAW, I honestly have no idea what RAW says on this) I would argue that something like a Smartgun would REQUIRE two-way communication if only as a built in security measure (a legitimate user will never need to fire a smartgun when they are not holding i.e. they will never need more than a meter or so of signal range) but also because it's designed to relay data from the gun's sensors to the user. But I mean then again, I was (without really knowing it) basically adding a house rule that ALL smartguns were skinlinked.
Neraph
Not really. You can remote order that your trigger gets locked so it can't fire, but you won't get confirmation of that happening, as it can't reach you with its signal.
Nifft
In real life, a lot of network protocols involve "handshaking" to ensure data integrity. Handshaking requires two-way communication.

Not all, mind you, but I'd be very worried if my gun accepted commands over unsecured UDP.
suoq
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 12 2010, 10:26 AM) *
Not really. You can remote order that your trigger gets locked so it can't fire, but you won't get confirmation of that happening, as it can't reach you with its signal.

Is this a house rule or is this some rule in the rule book I haven't been able to find?
Yerameyahu
Indeed, Nifft.

It's basically a house rule, suoq; just a little logic. RAW, there are no one-way signals like that, with the possible except of some of the demolition gear. smile.gif
suoq
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 12 2010, 01:30 PM) *
It's basically a house rule, suoq; just a little logic.
I'm not sure it's logical.

1) In the shadows, who wants a trigger that can be disabled by a hacker using a signal 6 commlink? Do I really want to carry an Ares Predator/Alpha/Bravo if Ares can turn the dang thing off from 10 km away?

2) The concept means that devices can be commanded without subscriptions. It blows a giant hole in slaving a device because it creates a range of 1 way actions that can be done without one device being subscribed to the other.

3) It opens up the concept that skinlink might be bypassed for those communications that don't need subscriptions since the device would have to be designed to verify that it didn't have a skinlink subscription before executing a non-subscribed command, which seems like an unusual protocol to design, code, and test.




Yerameyahu
That's not what logical means. smile.gif Logical is the fact that Signal 6 device can 'talk' to a Signal 3 device in a situation where the Signal 3 can't talk back. Logical is not 'is this useful/fair/wanted/etc.?'

Since you ask, though:
1) One-way commands have to be expected; Issue Command or Spoof Command would be used, and a valid Access ID would be required; pre-coded signals are also possible (your keyless-entry system, your garage-door opener, your remote detonator for demolitions…).
2) Devices *can* be commanded with subscriptions. Duh. smile.gif Subscriptions are required for Remote Control, which is a sustained two-way control interface, not a signal command.
3) The book specifically describes a skinlinked smartgun ignoring wireless as long as the skinlink is connected, then seamlessly switching to wireless when the skinlink disconnects.
tagz
And the simple defense on one way communication hacking attempts is to simply use encryption. Now, even though the hacker can send a spoof command to the drone without needing to be within the drone's signal range, if the drone's node is encrypted and won't accept regular commands with beating it, then it would make the hacker have to get into mutual signal range to properly use decrypt anyhow. However, anyone with the encryption key can be nice and far away... they just can't receive any confirmation of orders or anything. Only a fool wouldn't encrypt something he values not being hacked.

Of course it's all fairly moot when working in a world that seamlessly reroutes all wireless communications through any other wireless device in mutual signal range.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 12 2010, 04:35 PM) *
The book specifically describes a skinlinked smartgun ignoring wireless as long as the skinlink is connected, then seamlessly switching to wireless when the skinlink disconnects.


Heh, I discovered the Laser Link communications option when making my last character, as a result as long as her drones can maintain a laser connection with her they disable wireless in a similar manner.

I honestly think the SR devs when making Wireless SO damn prevalent and combining it with childishly insecure encryption did not really think about the actual ramifications such a combo would have on a high tech world.



-karma
Yerameyahu
*shrug* People know it's wonky. I like having the matrix as a playground, though. You have to simply handwave some things and move on.
Nifft
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Sep 12 2010, 10:32 PM) *
I honestly think the SR devs when making Wireless SO damn prevalent and combining it with childishly insecure encryption did not really think about the actual ramifications such a combo would have on a high tech world.

In real life, the most popular operating system has proven to be among the least secure.

Maybe there's a nefarious reason for the insecurity of SR systems -- like Big Corporate Brother wants to be able to look inside all your comlinks when they want, or something.

Or maybe it's just human nature that's made a less-than-optimal option so popular.

- - -

It might be interesting to try to justify the tech behind the game rule assumptions of the Matrix 2.0... maybe the only way to get such high data-density (to transmit full sensory data in real-time from a drone, for example) was to make every packet a self-extracting executable, or at least every packet could modify the decompression / decryption routines on the host. This could make for high network throughput AND for common exploit vectors.

Cheers, -- N
Neraph
QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 12 2010, 02:15 PM) *
Is this a house rule or is this some rule in the rule book I haven't been able to find?

QUOTE (Signal, page 213, SR4)
Note that for two devices to communicate with each other (as opposed to one-way communication), the devices must be within range of the weakest signal rating involved.

Emphasis mine.

QUOTE (Smartgun System, page 312, SR4)
The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold of it).

Emphasis mine.

Not a house rule, probably just overlooked.
Yerameyahu
Right: it's a little logic. smile.gif
suoq
QUOTE
The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger (in case an opponent gets ahold of it).


I don't understand why that's a one-way communication that doesn't require a subscription. Mentally, when I hear the word "link" I'm thinking two way connection with a subscription.

I would like to know what other one-way communications exist because, quite frankly, they're a hacker's delight because they do not require a subscription. That lack of a subscription raises all sorts of rules questions because I'm no longer sure the master/slave relationship even matters in such a case. Does a one-way command require authentication? Normally the subscription IS the authentication and a spoof is attempting to use that subscription from another device as it's authentication for it's commands. With one-way commands, is that even necessary anymore?

Alas, all the above is simply a big guess on my part because I have SR4A but not SR4. "One-way communication" is not in any of the books I have.

In SR4A, the Signal paragraph (pg 222) reads.
QUOTE
Signal represents the broadcasting power of the device’s hardware. The higher the Signal, the farther the device can transmit. Signal ranges and examples are listed on the Signal Rating Table. When two devices are within the range of the lowest Signal rating of the two, they are said to be in mutual Signal range; this is required for direct device-to-device communication and for other applications.


You can decide for yourself if that's an errata, a rule change, or both.
Ascalaphus
It's certainly odd.


QUOTE (tagz @ Sep 13 2010, 01:12 AM) *
And the simple defense on one way communication hacking attempts is to simply use encryption. Now, even though the hacker can send a spoof command to the drone without needing to be within the drone's signal range, if the drone's node is encrypted and won't accept regular commands with beating it, then it would make the hacker have to get into mutual signal range to properly use decrypt anyhow. However, anyone with the encryption key can be nice and far away... they just can't receive any confirmation of orders or anything. Only a fool wouldn't encrypt something he values not being hacked.

Of course it's all fairly moot when working in a world that seamlessly reroutes all wireless communications through any other wireless device in mutual signal range.


Well, you could just turn the smartgun's sending module off; it won't give any feedback if you're not skinlinking it, but it can still be remotely fired. That does mean you're not actually aiming it though.
Yerameyahu
Well, you can't aim a remote smartgun anyway. It's inanimate. You'd have to have a mobility mod or a smart platform or something.
Neurosis
I know, which makes me wonder why Smartguns without a mobility mod have such a long wireless range by default.
sabs
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 13 2010, 10:02 PM) *
I know, which makes me wonder why Smartguns without a mobility mod have such a long wireless range by default.


Because the game designers are weird?
smile.gif

Or perhaps for jammer resistance?

Actually what happens if you're skinlinked, and there's a jammer running?
Nifft
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 13 2010, 04:02 PM) *
I know, which makes me wonder why Smartguns without a mobility mod have such a long wireless range by default.

Perhaps so you can check to see if any of the guns on your rack / in your locker / in the house are loaded, and how much ammo each one has in its clip.

Or maybe they just weren't thinking about it very hard. smile.gif
Neurosis
QUOTE (Nifft @ Sep 13 2010, 04:21 PM) *
Perhaps so you can check to see if any of the guns on your rack / in your locker / in the house are loaded, and how much ammo each one has in its clip.


The level of paranoia that would cause someone to want a real time feed of this information is staggering.

Then again, it's Shadowrun. grinbig.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 13 2010, 12:49 AM) *
I would like to know what other one-way communications exist because, quite frankly, they're a hacker's delight because they do not require a subscription.

What gives you the idea that you can't be subscribed to it and just out of range? When the smartgun in this case gets the command, it gets it from "HALZCOMM2072A," which is its registered master.
Nifft
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 13 2010, 05:23 PM) *
The level of paranoia that would cause someone to want a real time feed of this information is staggering.

Then again, it's Shadowrun. grinbig.gif
Maybe you wake up and need to know IMMEDIATELY which of your three identical weapons is loaded with APDS and which one is loaded with SnS.

... and now we're back on topic.
Whipstitch
Yeah, some of the security ideas my players have come up with over the years have been pretty delightful examples of over-engineering things. I've had sessions go nearly completely off the rails until I just gruffly recommended getting some damn locks and a silent alarm that notifies them over their commlink. They're the same kind of players who think the breast and penile gland implants are genius right up until I point out that it'd probably be easier to just rig your sweat glands so you can poison people with your hands.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 13 2010, 03:14 PM) *
Because the game designers are weird?
smile.gif

Or perhaps for jammer resistance?

Actually what happens if you're skinlinked, and there's a jammer running?


Actually, that is simple... Skinlinks are not jammable...
Zoot
Sorry to Necropost but it didn't seem right to start another SnS thread for just one question.

Lets say I know my vic is wearing r6 non-conductive armour (4/4), so I decide a called shot to bypass the armour is the smart move. What is my dice pool penalty?

Is it -4 - since SnS goes against Impact Armour
Is it -2 - Since SnS actually only counts half Impact armour
Do we add the 6 points nonconductivity to make the penalty -10 / -8 since this is a critical function of the armour we are trying to bypass?

Hmm!
NiL_FisK_Urd
I would say -4, because the AP bonus and other goodies are also not factored in when you shoot him with regular ammo.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, AP is never counted for 'avoiding' armor with a Called Shot, I'd say. Neither are the resistance mods, though; you're avoiding the physical presence (aiming for an 'open spot').
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