Yes, +6 to everything is the definition of a massive advantage.

Once again, you said that *you* hadn't seen the imbalance abused; that doesn't mean there's no imbalance or potential for abuse.

Isn't Psyche just a drug version of one rank of Swap? Why isn't anyone complaining about that pesky drug that gives temporary access to a technomancer Echo, but for Mages?

EDIT: AND it gives stat bonuses? And it only costs money, not Karma? I'd like to file a formal complaint.

I'm still not sold on swap being used to get rid of all sustaining modifiers.

Threaded complex forms must be sustained (similar to how magicians sustain spells).
Sustaining requires effort on the technomancer’s part, so he suffers a –2 dice pool modifier to
all tests for each sustained complex form.

To me this reads as -2 for each threaded CF, meaning if you have two threaded forms you have a threading modifier of -4.

Swap at level two in my mind gives you effectivly the first threaded form with no modifier but if you add in a second or third your still taking reductions (just at a lower level)

Perhaps not .... Taking ... the Best Submersion is Part of Holding Back. .... After all, she Has Probably spent Karma ... improving Complex forms ... but She Would be Better ... Taking Swap and then Just Getting a Bonus to Everything ... but that would Make your Hacker ... look Like a Noob.

Sorry if my ... posts Are Annoying You ... what exactly Is the Problem? Or is it Just ... that We Disagree?

I would guess he is irritated more by the form of your posts than by their content. Those "..." you sprinkle at the most unexpected places makes them needlessly uncomfortable to read.

Uncomfortable to read and suspiciously troll-like. Please stop formatting your posts oddly just to annoy people. It is poor etiquette and non-productive to the discussion. Thanks.

Sorry, it was mean of me to make fun of Tymeaus's posting like that, I'll stop.

Neraph, we know that drugs are insane. Luckily, the mage'll be addicted, burn out, and die. The main issue with Swap is, if you interpret it as reducing the -2/thread to -0/thread, it gives infinite sustaining. Psyche doesn't do that.

Of Course... AS I said earlier; Depending upon your point of view, 6 Dice is either irrelevant or a Big Deal... It amuses me a bit that when discussing the deviance of Skills from 0-7, that 6 Dice is just way to insignificant to actaully make a difference, but when it is a Program Difference Between 6 and 12, it becomes absolutely game breaking... When, in all honesty, it is no different than the range between a a Program Rated 1 and a Program Rated 7. Or to be more Blunt; You cannot have it both ways... it is either insignificant, or it means something.

In My book, I like the differences between the various ratings by Fluff. Yes, 6 Dice is Thematically very important. Unfortunately, Mechanically it is only a difference of 2 Average successes. While I still believe in the superiority of the Fluff here, many (if not most) Dumpshockers do not agree. As such, the Majority of Dumpshockers should have absolutely no problem with the differences here.

I know that you are not often counted among the Majority there Yerameyahu, and I am often glad to be right there with you. But I am having a really difficult time believing in the brokenness of Swap ( at 2 Levels, and No Sustaining Penalties) when the game balances the ability in other ways. I just cannot believe that there is a Character (Note the difference here, I did not say a Player) out there that is going to continuously thread until all of his CF's are at their maximum. 6 Physical per CF is not something to play with, and doing it 10-15 times in successsion will likely leave the character either in the hospital or dead. The fact that a Player will argue for it is nothing more than Metagaming of the highest order, at least in my opinion...

I've never said that the difference between Skill 1 and Skill 7 is insignificant, so don't accuse *me* of incoherence. I think it's a big deal in both cases; more for Skill, because it has some limiting effects in the mechanics.

I agree that it's not a 100% free and safe option, but just having the option to get 12 (or more) in anything is a huge deal in flexibility and power. It doesn't need to be all programs, all the time, because this Technomancer has the potential all the time.

You are right, It may not have been you specifically (SHould have used the Generic "YOU") ... and that is why I said you were in the Minority during that particlar conversation. Yes, 6 Dice is a big deal... but a great many have issues with that statement, because the mechanics do not reflect that difference like they think that it should...

Options are nice... But I do not believe that Swap is Broken just because it gives you that option. It really comes down to how you read the Crunch.

If you read it as applying a -1 (-2) to each CF threaded, then it removes Sustained Threading Penalties for the Technomancer who obtains both Levels of Swap... On the other Hand, if you read it as a -1 or -2 to the cumulative penalty for Thread Sustainment then you run into a precedence issue. IF you use that, then you must re-examine Heightened Concentration and Spell Sustaining... If it is a Single Penalty to sustain a Mystic Adepts Spells, then The Heightened Concentration can negate a huge chunk of penalty for minimal cost... if you count each sustainin penalty as a singel occurrence, well, then Swap negates Threading penalties... Or you can, you know, just use them as they read...

Personally, I think that Swap Negates Threading Penalties and Heightened Concentration negates a Huge cunk of Spell Sustaining Penalties, because that is how each power reads. But again, there is no real consensus on either of them, so where do you go?

Anyways

I agree that the comparison to the whole spell-sustaining debate is interesting; it's all a bit of a mess. I have no real position on what the rules *should* be, because these issues haven't come up in a game I GMed; when they do, I'll make a call.

Here, I'm only discussing the fact that I certainly see an imbalance that could be abused, and I don't think it should be lightly brushed aside.

Addiction and altered behavior aside, it only provides -1. A mage on Psyche can't just sustain all his spells without suffering modifiers. If he sustained Armor, Increase Body, Increase Reaction, Increase Reflexes, Increase Willpower, Increase Drain stat, he'd still be at -6 to all his dice pools - and offensively, he'd be no better at casting spells.

I'm still not getting where people are taking that swap will get rid of all the modifers over any number of threaded forms when the modifier is one that grows as it is used. The modifier doesnt cap at two so swap cant remove it all.

I just fail to see the problem of TM getting few extra dices over the hacker, atleast the hacker isn't required to shoot himself on the kneecap before starting the hack.
Also the hacker can get an almost equivalent amount of dice from ware, that the TM can't get unless he's willing to sacrifice some of his resonance.

This is how I've interpreted it for my TMs. It maybe makes swap a bit underpowered (I still like it), but I figure the other way of reading it is basically a +4 to all matrix actions, which easily overshadows any other way to spend that same 20ish karma. I think this is the bigger issue than anything else. It isn't necessarily that 4 (or 6) dice is game breaking, it is that, from a character ability perspective, there is basically no reason to not get it. It is a choice that is so good, that it isn't really a choice. It's like having a choice between "Would you rather gain a million dollars, or be put a million dollars in debt?". Sure, there is technically a choice, but really there isn't.

@TJ I think the reason you'll see the difference between 6 dice based on skill and 6 dice based on this (Presuming 6 dice, which is a bit high) is because 6 dice on skill means that the world's most highly trained (but not naturally talented (low stats)) person is just barely better than someone who is gifted (high stats) but has no idea what they're doing. It's less about the 6 dice, and more about the description of skill not necessarily matching actual ability. Of course, it is perhaps silly to think that someone would have a 6 skill, and not have a good stat to go with it. P.S. This is just why I think you'll see the discrepancy. Personally I have no problem with the 6 skill cap.

Basically they are adding the words 'per CF sustained' Well, not quite, but that is the easiest way to explain it.

The mind boggles sometimes at the strange ways people read things, hell I do it myself at times but I'm pretty sure swap getting rid of all threading modifiers doesnt pass the sanity check. If we were suddenly talking about a pair of metamagics which allowed mages to sustain multiple spells with no negatives (drain for the most part is not a terrible negative if you plan) people would be up in arms saying it cant be right as it would be game breaking.

This is no different a TM can do some very cool things inside a node but the ability to thread up all their CF to high levels and not have any negatives just doesnt track.

Well if its all a single modifier that goes up per "item" sustained, then a mystic-adept using psyche can sustain 6 or more spells with zero penalty.

Not from my reading,


Psyche
Duration: (12 – Body) hours, minimum of 1 hour
Effect: +1 Intuition, +1 Logic
This designer drug, allegedly produced by MCT, is especially prized by magicians and technomancers,
as the drug stimulates their brain into hyperactivity. In addition to the effects noted above, Awakened
users also only suffer a –1 dice pool modifier for each sustained spell (rather than the standard –2).
Psyche users are simultaneously hyper-aware and detached, easily absorbed by detail and obsessive
about certain facts or problems.

Six spells sustained while under the drug would have a modifer of -6 (IE -1 per sustained spell as written above)

But this bonus has negatives, it only lasts for a short while, addiction can be a bitch if the gm plays it that way.

The reading some people are giving swap is a massive boost to a character with cost limited to 29 karma which while not a small amount is not much in comparison to some peoples idea of what they get for it.

Thats why a said mystic-adept and not a mage, for 1 power point you get Heightened Concentration which lets you ingnore a single penalty up to your magic, in this case the -6 from sustaining 6 spells.

Right didnt realise because you hadnt put the Heightened Concentration bit in your post. I cant say I have explored Mystic Adepts very much and am abit rusty on their specifics.

In that instance I am unsure myself but I would say its possible. Take into consideration to do that you would have had to A) get magic to six, B, use a whole power point to get the skill (if you were allowed it as I dont think everyone uses the DG book) C) cast all the spells and take the drain for them.

But my only real issue with that ability is that how long it lasts is not defined


Heightened Concentration
Cost: 1
The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her
task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single
situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic
attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and
maybe be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic.

Bolded by me for ease of visual,

How long is a task at hand? is it simply firing a shot? driving a car for a mile? Running down a street?

How do we define it? if you define it as for as long as they like then its abit powerful but if it only lasts for a short time when your concentrating on somethign specific then it makes sense because you have to sacrifice a complex action each time you wish to use it which in combat can be a killer.

I'm still leaning to the side that modifers that grow like sustaining are one modifer with a variable value rather then segmented modifers.

I for one would only allow Heightened Concentration to remove the modifier from one spell - one spell, one modifier. The power doesn't say "all modifiers of a certain type" after all.

Landsren was arguing that they are a single modifier and as such the swap would only let TM to sustain the on thread with ot penalty.

Oh boy. Let's not rehash the HC debate again here.

Max, as I told Tymeaus, I *don't* fail to see the problem of +6 to any (and multiple) programs over the hacker. That's not "a few dices", and it's not something the hacker can do, and we know full well that if a Magic/Resonance character can do something by using a little 'ware, they can make that 'sacrifice'. I feel like something being categorically better is usually imbalance. So we disagree. *shrug*

I would be so much happier with Shadowrun if Cyberware/Bioware was not a little sacrifice, but instead was actually a big huge one, for "Magical" characters.

Agreed, which is why Max's reason (while not incorrect) doesn't work. But fixing that's a house rule issue: double penalties (automatic Sensitive System, etc.)?

By the way, I'm not ignoring the fact that Fading is a counterbalance. However, we know perfectly well that players can and will very creatively minimize that problem, as they do with mages. There's imbalanced, and then there's 'beyond broken'; this Swap situation is merely the former.