I am not saying that toxins and so-forth do not exist. I am saying that they are obviously less common in the game universe. This has nothing to do with my table. It is why there are dozens of guns that shoot bullets for every gun that delivers toxins and a dozen ammunition types that don't deliver toxins to the one that does, and lots of grenades that explode for the one grenade type that releases gas. Plus if you read the fluff, any of it, you'll find people drawing their Ares Predators a lot more than they're drawing their Ares Super-Squirt.

So don't make it sound like GUNS, CLUBS, AND SWORDS/KNIVES are some kind of obscure house rule that only sees use at my table. They are obviously more prevalent in the default universe than gas and toxins.

He was adressing Me
but Neurosis allready postet what I would've written
In a Group where all chars have 10 soakdice (BOD & Armor) a maximised Tank Troll with 30-40 Soakdice could become a great Problem for the GM .
If he uses an Opposition that is dangerous for the Tank Troll He could possibly kill all other chars.
And Yes ,I know These Trolls can be a boon for the Party Ingame(You know that I myself have some of these Trolls) but Outgame they can become very Troublesome if you ....If you exaggerate


Just out of curiosity, how much does a helmet add?
Bal +0 -- +2 / Imp +0 --+2
There are different Helmets with different Boni/Bonusses

I am not saying that toxins and so-forth do not exist. I am saying that they are obviously less common in the game universe. This has nothing to do with my table.
Same here

with different Dances
Medicineman

Why does no one have armor-increasing magic, armor-increasing cyberware, FFBA, a body above 4, or any armor better than a lined coat?

It was an Example why Cyberimb armor,especially if Min/Maxed and if misused by giving 1/2 Limbs Full Armor,in combination with maxed BOD and Armor (the 40 Soakdice TankTroll) could become Broken .
Shure ,it's totally ok to say that the other Chars could/should "Armor up"
but it might take a while.A Tiny Mage with BOD 2 and Leatherjacket 2/2 and Armor Spell 5
might need some Karma to get BOD 4, Longcoat 6/4 and Spell 5 for 15 Soakdice.(this is just an Example)
In the meantime he might get killed by a stray burst because the Gamemaster has Opponents with Full Auto SMGs to threaten the Troll.
(I hope I made myself clear ?? )

with an uncertain Dance
Medicineman

I don't disagree with your basic point, but I think characterizing the players who aren't cheesing up as retardedly weak (leather jacket? Seriously?) doesn't help the argument. It's just kind of an exaggeration.

Also, full auto SMGs don't or barely threaten a character with 30-40 points of armor.

If a min-max player creates a character as an impenetrable wall of steel, it's not merely because the rules let him do so.

He has done so because he WANTS TO.

As such, you can keep trying to find this or that way of limiting him. And he will keep trying to find loopholes to get around the limitations. You can be doing this dance back and forth forever.

All the discussions bout gas, toxins, etc. are all well and good, but ultimately still part of that dance.

Or, you as a GM could realize that ultimately "how hard it is to kill this character" isn't the real point.

Dying or not dying is only one of many points of success or failure in an roleplaying game. Let the player be the impenetrable wall of steel. It's what he wants, and he'll enjoy the game more if he gets to show it off.

There are other ways of challenging the player.

"Not Dying" is the most basic goal during a mission. But by itself it won't get a character paid.

Technical, social, resource, time - all present opportunities for challenge against characters. Combat is only one tool in a GM's toolkit. Use them all.



-k

Except other players and the GM will presumably enjoy the game less, AS MUCH because this player is unkillable as because he, as you implied, has no useful skills. Fortunately I've never had a problem player like this. By-and-by my players are very reasonable.

In any case, I really feel that this general point about powergaming and how to deal with it as a GM is actually somewhat immaterial to my point. Which is that like it or not, having a character that is impervious to harm is game-breaking. Yes, a good GM can deal with it in any number of ways, from Force 8 Manabolt to your somewhat less adversarial "okay you're a tank but what can you DO" approach. But that doesn't change the fact that it is broken.

I can deal damage on the same level as a typical tank.
meaning i can destroy vehicles with ease and can tear down walls and buildings given some time if needed be.
furthermore i can provide cover for the less fortunately gifted simply ba standing in that door over there.
and i can carry out anything and anybody that needs to be moved and can't or won't do it by itself.
furthermore, i am very adapt at throwing stuff, like grenaded. i can take people out quickly and silent.
i can detain people by either simply holding them up so ther feet lose contact to the ground or sitting on them.
i can and will do provide sustained heavy automatic fire. i can and will shove vehicles blocking our way away.

AND THIS IS JUST BEFORE GOING INTO SKILL POINTS THAT ARE LEFT OVER AFTER MONEY HAS BEEN SPENT!
A Tank can do anything everybody else can do as well. Slightly better or worse, depending on activity.
Just because the Troll is 3.5m tall and weights in at 300 kilos of muscle, armor and metal and weapons does NOT mean he can't get his stealth up to 11 . .

And yet you say that it's not broken. The game isn't designed for characters, especially just one in a group, to be immune to physical damage. The fact that other things can hurt him doesn't change the fact that most threats now don't exist. It's not an insurmountable issue, but don't say it's *not* an issue.

It's as much of an issue like the way adepts and magicians are grossly over powered in certain regards . . and yet nobody seems to have any trouble with that, it's only the cyber samurai, especially the high body and strength troll ones who get pointed out as damnable power gaming. When they are only highly specialized characters just like most other characters are that are intended to have and follow a certain shtick . . it's using two different kinds of measurement, it's comaring apples to oranges while praising apples for their mild taste, while oranges are damned for being too exotic and their sour taste . .

I personally don't ask, "is it too good?" in regards to rules very often.

I usually ask, "Is it too cheap?"

Most of the uber-high armor guys (20+ dice) had to have expended significant resources to get there. If that is what a player wants to define their character with, that is what makes them happy and far be it for me to externally dictate what makes them happy.

That player's uber combat build should only constantly bother the other players if you as the GM only tend to throw combat as their main challenge.

A "wall of steel" focus is useless in infiltration, socializing, beating a timer, etc. Use those situations to let the other characters shine.

As a bonus, any opponent that CAN crack the Wall Of Steel will get a much most emotional and visceral "HOLY CRAP!" reaction from the players.

A recent game where I was playing a Combat Monster, in a firefight, but STILL felt in great fear for my character's survival: The team had discovered the facility they'd infiltrated was really a government black operation. An alarm got triggered. Even though my character wasn't likely to get killed by bullets - he'd taken 2 full turns of multiple opponents firing at him with zero damage - there was a real "we are so screwed" feeling as any moment the steel blast doors could slam shut, trapping us.

That was a chase and time challenge. It worked beautifully to challenge the players.

In fact, much of the time for most shadowrunners, the guys with the guns are NOT the real enemy. Time is.



-k

Stahlseele, fortunately Shadowrun (at least how I presume most of us run it) is not a game where that little subtlety is something the team can survive. The fact of the matter is, in terms of brute force, you will never be able to match what a corporation or even a syndicate can bring to bare. Besides the aforementioned magic, gas, and toxins options, if you are doing the "I am the juggernaut, I cannot be stopped thing" then whatever corp is the target or maybe just the good old UCAS military is going to scramble a pair of Augilar-GX attack helicopters or an Eagle-C to tag you with a Mitsubishi-GM Outlaw (Block III) or four, and that's all she wrote, with minimum collateral damage to civilians.



On a completely different level:

1. Your troll-tank probably can't even fit inside the building.
2. Sane GMs would be applying penalties to your stealth roll.
3. Empirically, by RAW I do not think it is possible with a 400 BP Character to get the kind of tank-like combat capabilities you're discussing and Stealth 11 or whatever. You just don't have enough points.

Stahlseele, there's no way you can say that nobody thinks mages and adepts aren't overpowered. You've seen Dumpshock.

I lost the meaning of this sentence in the maze of negatives.

Yeah, but most people STILL accept them before accepting an Troll-Armor-Monster like that . .
It's fucking hypocricy in my eyes . .

If a mage somehow had 40 Armor or anything equivalently wrongtarded/hilaribad I would take issue with that too. Straight adepts just flat out aren't that powerful, so I don't know where you're going with including them.

Adepts includes mystic adepts, of course.

Medicineman: I don't get why you're so upset about 1/2 cyberlimbs..

(Assuming full cybernetic): Capacity, Armor uses 2 Capacity per point, max 4

Arm C=15 -> A=4, 1 C left
Hand C=4 -> A=2

Leg C=20 -> A=4, 12 C left
Foot C=4 -> A=2

So due to capacity constraints, half-limbs can only get at best half the armor you can get from a full one.

---

So is an unstoppable armor troll a bad thing? Well, it definitely changes a lot. But the default situation of the game is that the characters are generally more powerful than any non-HTR people they run into. Just because the CorpSec can't shoot down the tank doesn't mean they can't threaten the rest of the team without the GM escalating their stats. And that can be enough to indirectly threaten the tank; if his mage or hacker ally dies, he's in big trouble for example.

Another thing: it makes the shadowrunners very memorable and distinct. They won't be "just random shadowrunners" for very long if one of them stands out this much. Which means that after a while the elite security forces may have a defense stratagem specifically tailored to the characters.

Another thing: just because no-one can face you one on one, doesn't mean you can be everywhere at once or keep control of an entire combat. NPCs that rely on mobility and attacking from multiple angles can threaten the party.

For inspiration on how NPCs might handle a juggernaut, watch any number of anime with mechs; the NPCs had a chance to watch them, and use them for inspiration on strategy!

So that's why toxins, gas grenades, and Super Squirts have lower availability and restriction ratings? Because they're more rare than guns, clubs, and knives?

EDIT: On the "I'm the Juggernaught, slitch!" thing; there are so many ways to utterly destroy such a thing it's not even funny. Seriously.

1) Slab capsule.

2) Pepper Punch/Narcoject, as stated earlier. Repeat as needed.

3) Simple attrition.

4) Stick-n-Shock Rounds. -1/2 AP is going to hurt your "soakpool."

5) Magic. Nearly any of it.
5a) Elemental Indirect Combat Spells. -1/2 AP hurts you (see #4), or alternatively, using Sonic will shcrew you up. (I spelled "schrew" on purpose)
5b) Direct Mana Spells.
5c) Orgasm.
5d) My personal favorite: Levitate. All that mass with no velocity...
5e) Basically any other Manipulation spell.

But let's not get this into a E-peen Test. I spent most of my BP on those attribute/skills.

I already said this to Stahlseele, but the fact that it can be beaten by some means doesn't mean it's not a balance concern.

Sure thing, if your GM is cool with you spending that much money, getting that many availability 20 items, and doesn't make you a freakish social pariah that's worthless at anything but sponging incoming fire, knock yourself out!

It's not like cyberlimbs are freakishly overvalued, all of a sudden -- they're just worth taking for pretty much the first edition, ever. And like anything else that's worth taking, they can, then, be twinked out to ridiculous levels and abused. Welcome to RPGs 101.

It does when those means that beat it should really be more common for security guards then those that don't.
Most non-leathal methods rape the tank troll and those should be really common for corporate security, it is after all usually better to take the intruders alive after all.

It's important to keep in mind that Armor for cyberlimbs has Availability 5x, so you'd need restricted gear to even take it to 4 on CharGen. For every limb.

Also: the cheapest loadout costs 86,000 and 5.5 Essence, not exactly cheap. It also has Availability 20,20,20,20,20 so it'll take a while to get together. This is clearly in the long-term power gain category.

Balance? It certainly changes balance. But does it break balance? I dunno. Like I wrote, the rest of the group is still vulnerable, and by spending so much Essence you tend to give up on serious IP boosters as well.

If trying to optimize, I'd only go with Legs, because those have 20 Capacity, more than any other limb, for the same nuyen and Essence. Save the rest of the Essence for IP boosters and such that enable you to DO things instead of merely survive. OTOH, if your soak pool is "only" 30 or so, there will be attacks now and then that can still hurt you.

Yeah, the 1/2 armor rule is specifically designed for things like tanks. 30 armor becomes 15 armor while a regular with 12 armor gets 6.

What 1/2 Armor rule?As I understand, the whole thing is a big mistake:

* SR4A doesn't change anything
* The SR4A Changes Document erroneously lists a change
* The FAQ says the Changes Document had it wrong

I don't wanna be a spoilsport ,but this example was exactly our start in the Ghost Kartell campaign that we started last Sunday
We have 5 (7 Chars)
I'm playing the tank Troll ("Meteor" a Pitfighter) with 27 Soakdice
we also had 1 cat Shaman (BOD 3 and Leatherjacket), 1 Ninja(BOD 3 and lined Coat) & a Hacker doing Matrix work(the Ork Mercenary/his player had to go early and 2 Gunbunny Elf-Sisters will play next time ,yes, its a big Group ).
Well the 3 of us (Troll Pitfighter,Cat Schaman an Ninja) were looking for Smalls ,a Dealer when we ran into a group of 5 professional Goons with pimped SMGs.Long Story--->short:
They attacked us and I took the Brush of the Attack
5 Long Bursts and (IIRC 3 short Burst ) with Standard,APDS and Explo Ammo.
I dodged 2 Burst ,Shrugged off 2 but I got a total of 8 Stun and played Dead Troll.
Both Players said that their Chars would've been dead if they would've been hit (10-12 physical several Times )
So ,please, don't say that I exaggerate when exactly that happened
(I have to confess that the other two Players are kinda new to SR4 and had more experience with Fantasy RPG ,but his taught them how deadly SR can be and as soon as the Mercenary Ork (Heavy Weapons) an the two ambidextrous-Adept-Gun-Bunnies are there we can protect them
long enough to grow and to survive )

with a survivaldance
Medicineman

I'm not upset about /2 Limbs
I just think that the Rule 1/2 Limb = 1/2 Armor is the Right one
I'm using it for my own Chars and discussed it in all 3 SR4 Groups I'm in

Maybe It's my bad english that you read sth into my Posts that isn't there

HokaHey
Medicineman

Don't know how much RAW exactly factors in to this discussion, but here's a thought:
The exact wording in SR4A states they are "cumulative with all forms of worn armor." The FAQ referred to previously states that while worn armor increases encumbrance, magic and implants do not. It specifically uses the word "implants" here where it uses "augmentations" earlier in the FAQ entry to refer to things that stack in armor. That may be deliberate, maybe not, but is armor installed in a cyberlimb really an "implant" in the way dermal sheathing or bone lacing is implanted? It doesn't cost additional Essence, it's externally mounted by necessity, and it doesn't interact in any way with the character's body. Integration in the cyberlimb doesn't make it take up a lot more space like bulky worn armor, but it's still extra weight and if the cyberlimb's Body isn't modified to compensate, extra encumbrance is logical, and, I'd argue, RAW. If cyberlimb armor stacks with all worn armor, it increases the total highest armor rating used to calculate encumbrance, no? This, I think, helps a bit to balance the extreme armor issue, even with partial limbs, without requiring significant house rules.

Another way to show your characters the negative side of maxed out armor are similar to ways I've used to dissuade D&D characters from wearing their full plate everywhere - make them constantly aware by describing the annoying hindrances caused by continuous encumbrance and weight. Done right, this entertains the group and makes the player think twice about spending all their time as an object of fear, amusement or inconvenience. Try to do it with NPCs first if someone is considering building/enhancing a character with dozens of points of cyberarmor. Consider these scenarios:

The armored character jumps from a pier to a waiting speedboat - only to fall through the floor of the boat, sinking it and dropping to the bottom of the Sound. Hope he's got an air tank implant!
A plate-metal cyberfoot breaks through a cheap third-story floor in a Redmond pre-Awakening tenement building, annoying residents in the ghoul nest, Betameth lab, or ganger hangout below.
The 400 kilo troll is forced to stand through the whole meet with the Johnson, a constant visible presence next to the otherwise inconspicuous booth, because he can't slide into the seat, and the club doesn't have any more chairs they're willing to have destroyed by his bulletproof ass.
The chromed-out sammy loses a tail when the team scrambles after a botched run - but the 'Star pings him on their sweep because he's the most concentrated metallic blip on active radar and mmW in a square klick.

I find there's always ways to build a "broken" character, and this is why it's important to have final GM approval on characters, not just leave it to RAW. Sometimes, though, rather than denying certain concepts, you just need to show the consequences - it can actually make for more interesting roleplaying opportunities occasionally, and even when it just torques off the player who had their "unbeatable" character compromised, they learn a valuable lesson about overspecializing and boasting of their 40 dice of soak - there is always a price. If you avoid it, it's just luck - or an insufficiently motivated GM.

He means weapons that have AP -half.

So you think it's fair that those getting only partial limbs have to pay 4 capacity .from their already small amount of capacity, to get 1 point of armor.


No the armor isn't an implant, its just a part of an implant that makes the implant harder to break.
And really if you give the character encumbrance for armor in their cyberarm, should you also give them encumbrance for everythink else they use their limbs capacity for, becouse armor isn't anymore an external addition to the arm then a gyromount or spur is.

SHITFUCKDUMBASSMY

Not 1/2 Armor .
Boy am I stupid *Facepalm*
1/2Limbs giving only 1/2 additional Damage Boxes !!

with a correcting Dance
Medicineman

Medicineman: half-limbs only have enough capacity to buy 2 points of Armor anyway, why halve that?

Also: in your example, don't you think you were simply up against opposition that was just too much for the group? Because the damage was a bit much for the tank, too.

Also: people who don't use 6+ armor are either inexperienced players (which is not a crime!), or are taking a risk. It's a dangerous world, and professional runners know it and can adapt. In a high-tech game, it's not munchkinning if smart characters cleverly use technology(equipment).

I disagree - a cyberspur or gyromount may take up the same amount of Capacity, but that's not a measurement of space, or more importantly, weight. Capacity abstracts the internal space, electronic interface, power reserve, and reengineering required to add a device or modification in a limb. A cyberspur includes the blade, the DNI circuitry, the servo to extend/retract it, and the smaller servos/joints/panels that integrate it into the limb's structure while allowing it to slide in and out quickly. Not to mention the shaft between its storage space and the outer limb, which is a good amount of *empty air* in the limb there! A gyromount also has circuitry, computer control, and extension/retraction space that results in a fair amount of either lightweight components and empty space.
Armor, on the other hand, has no DNI. It has no empty space. It has no lightweight servos or microengineering. 100% of the Capacity devoted to armor represents space taken up by layers of metallic laminate and ceramic impact plates. It's solid all the way through. Would you expect me to believe a car using all its modification slots on armor would weigh and perform the same as one which used them on engine customizations and anti-theft systems? That's not realistic, and if vehicle armor exceeds vehicle Body, it's not RAW either. Why should installed armor on a vehicle be any different from installed armor on a limb? If you don't upgrade the limb's structural members, reinforce the joints, add redundancy to the electronics and servos, and tighten up the linkages (all abstracted by a Body upgrade) you're stressing it beyond what it's originally intended to take, which will slow the limb down, slowing YOU down.
Armor may not be any more externally visible than other installed mods, but in terms of weight and therefore encumbrance, it's a whole different ballgame.

Technically, you could claim to be in character for min/maxing . .

While I agree that Capacity should be the limiting factor, Lower Arms have 10 Capacity, lower legs have 12. Obvious, anyway. More than enough to max to 4 armor.

I would say that the first 2 of those are more of what the armor enchament does and not body ugrade.
Where do you get the idea that armor enchament is addidng layers of metallic laminate and ceramic impact plates, i see it much more as reinforcing the whole arm by changing to more damage resistant materials and adding extra around the important parts. There's no need for the armor material to weight anymore then the material the limb is normally made of.

Good catch; I had not seen this before as only one of my players sports limbs at chargen. So on an alpha arm you'd hit 12 Avail for 2 armor... 4 limbs and over half starting essence gets you 8 extra armor and over 124k. That's not overpowered, it's a character-killer. Who really wants someone who can't do anything but not die?
Edit: My math-fu is weak. Time for bed.

The problem is micky mouse, the character with giant armored cyberhands and cyberfeets that provide 8/8 armor and 2 extra damage boxes for 12k and 1.25 essence (used) or 22k and 1.0 essence (std).

Ah, I was just looking at hands and feet, not lower arms/legs. Anyway, limitations on how much armor is available at CharGen still stand. It's like complaining that Initiation 2 is unbalanced. By that time the entire party can be packing serious power.

Another problem with taking partial limbs and putting all the capacity into armor is that you need to either spend a lot on Customization, or you start running into all sorts of ugliness when averaging your Attributes between all your limbs/parts.

Really, I think at some point other characters in the party need to start taking responsibility for keeping up with protection; a prime runner with less than 10 soak - isn't. More is quite doable without too much trouble even for mages. Body 4, FFBA(6/3) and Actioneer Business Clothes(5/3) isn't unreasonable for people in a dangerous profession. That's what? 3,100 and 30BP well spent on Body.

Except partial limb stats aren't avaraged into your attribute, their used only in very specifig situations.

Edit: Misread the post. *partial* limbs. Check.

Particularly Body and Reaction are often rolled using the entire body, (no topical hits, trying to move your entire body out of the way of an attack, initiative is a full-body thing), so that's two out of four attributes that'll be averaged.

I made the same mistake, on first reading - *full* cyberlimbs have this issue, but *partial* cyberlimbs don't average; they ONLY apply their attributes when they're involved DIRECTLY - the example given is using a cyberhand's Strength in gripping, but a cyberfoot's Agility would probably apply in rounding for a Gymnastics test, or a lower arm's Body if it's being used to shield against a knife strike. Body against being shot is tricker, and vague in RAW. My impression would be, if you get full bonuses with Armor and extra condition boxes, you should round with it as a full limb for whole-body damage resistance. After all, Body upgrades are just as expensive and take up the same Capacity for partial limbs.

As for Reaction, cyberlimbs explicitly lack this stat. You're right, initiative is a whole-body thing, and it's abstracted as your reflexes and reaction time, which is a function of your central nervous system. That's why all reaction boosters affect your nerves (Wired Reflexes) endocrine system (Adrenaline Pump, drugs) or spinal cord (Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Booster). No amount of external chrome will make you pull that gun faster or shoot six guys in three seconds.

I can't figure if your trolling or just didn't even read the quote you posted, let me bold the relevant part of your book quote

My apologies, I misread.

Availability != Prevalence. Additionally, only one toxin has an availability rating equal to that of an Ares Predator. None have a lower Availability. The vast majority have a vastly higher Availability.



At that point, I would not even have NPCs shoot at the character with anything short of anti-tank weapons. Ironically, I think if you armor-up that much, you become an anti-tank. Enemies are going to aim at targets they can hurt, not waste their IPs/bulllets. Don't shoot the borderline-retarded tank-man, shoot the nice soft targets giving him orders.



This is a highly valid point on a balance level. However, I have a bigger issue with cyberarm armor, bone lacing benefits, and dermal plating armor all stacking, because once you replace half or most of your limbs with cyber, what you laced your bones with or stitched under your skin shouldn't matter, at least not as much.

And i repeat: SR3 had rules for that.
SR4 does not have rules for that.
Deal with it.
It all Stacks.
Due to Streamlining.
Deal with it.

I am dealing with it.

By complaining. (And, if and when it is necessary, creating House Rules.)

*nods* i can deal with that.

True but I it will take you two weeks to get a gun or 1 day to get a big bunch of pepper-punch nades I wonder how many people go that route.

From the fluff and all published adventures from all editions apparently a lot of people are still going the gun route.

Also I have no idea where you're getting those numbers from.