Well, AR refers to basically any computer information provided alongside your normal senses, right? Simsense is the easiest way to do that, but there are also normal screens, AR gloves, etc. So… there's not really a 'non-AR part of a computer display', roughly.

well, I think the thing I am looking at right now is a non-AR computer display. There are no electronic feeds into my perceptions, I'm just seeing the electrons emitted from the screen through my unaugmented eyes. I think that part would be as visible as a book with text. (Not the atral view, the physical view.)

Ar is the fact of adding matrix information to mundane objects, thanks to RFID tags, comlinks on public mode and the like. Or using a cam and image recognition software to spot guns and feeding that information into your PAN. Pure matrix informations can also enter the mixbur for the most part AR is the additon of matrix elements to the real items.

What varies is the way to acces that information - at the low end of the spectrum you will find what you'd get if your could film through it's inbuilt cam, display the resultant image on it's screen while adding whatever RFID lables it could pick - acting as a 'window' on the augmented reality. On the high end yoy will have Sminsense signal putting the information directly into your brain as an overlay over your normal perceptions.

Actually there are 2 different kinds of AR.

There is ARO: which is actually not supported in the crunch, but all over the Fluff. Real life objects with Matrix info imbedded on them. Virtual Clothing, Hair styles, Billboards, etc.

There is AR: which is basically a non immersive interface into the matrix. It's using displays, and voice/though recognition to work in the matrix.

sabs, that's not what ARO means.

pbangarth, that's what I'm saying: all 'relevant' data you experience is basically AR. It's a very broad term. 'Google Goggles' is AR, and so are those apps that show ads on things your iPhone camera sees, etc. It doesn't have to be *in* your head. On the other hand, playing an unrelated game on your commlink isn't AR (the 'reality' component is missing).

Where are the rules for 'spirits can't see X', by the way? We should deal with the actual texts.

I couldn't find it specifically. That's why I am wondering. There is a bit about possession spirits not being able to use implants, etc., but that's not what I'm asking about.

I also remember reading that nonsense but can't find the passage now.

It says something about how spirits cannot experience VR because they have no N for a DNI

RC, p91 under Free Spirit Perception:
"Note, however, that spirits are unable to see or interpret simsense, electronic projections on screens, or AR displays"

There may be other references, but I was not able to find them quickly.

Simsense is fair enough - bit hard to feed information directly to the central nervous system when a spirit does not have one

In terms of screens and displays, the image one 'sees' depends on tricking the eyes/brain into it. ie an old cathode ray screen creates a pattern of colored dots that a viewer 'interprets' as an image. I figure that a spirit will only see dots (think of the colour blind tests - normal vision sees one number, those who have the right colour blindness see another)

Mind you, I think this was thrown in to give PC spirits more 'flavour' rather than any concern over (meta)physics

Right, sabs, I don't think anyone's arguing that.

But I *know* I've heard on Dumpshock about how spirits can't even look at a screen. I have only skimmed the magic rules, so I've never seen that in the book.

EDIT: Oh, thanks Aarakin. Your reasoning seems appropriate, because they can obviously see everything else. I'm not sure if it's *fair*, but that's a game rules issue. Shouldn't they be able to read a grayscale screen, though? E-paper/E-ink? Hmm.

The problem is, in some nations, Free Spirits CAN have sins!

But they can't see electronic projections. Whats a screen on a cell phone/commlink? An electronic projection. Billboards? Nope. Jumbotrons? Try again. Holograms? Definitely out. Trids? Simsense? What about an old-school movie/classroom projector?

There's no actual way for a free spirit to check if they're not being ripped off for their sin

Basically, that section in the book is the Devs having an arguement. One dev didn't want spirits on the internet at all, and the other Dev was going 'okay, why can't they look at a monitor to check their bank balance?' and it never got resolved before print.

The -exact- issue is what constitutes an electronic projection. How old-tech do you need to get before a spirit can see it?
What about a physical projection?

Yup, it's pretty stupid.

If you read RAW they can't see even CRT dysplays don'y ask me why in that case is it always dark for them in corridors I mane that cant see that tech made light either right? I mean any spirt with out lowligh vison or thermo vison will have issues inside if that's the case.

Smart paper. Problem fixed- its not a projection. If you can't read smart paper, you can't see shades of gray. Can spirits read printed books? If they can, they can read smart paper.

Then again, if you can't see an "electronic projection", you can't perceive light... so can't read anything. Obviously its not a LOGICAL rule...

I's day spirits can perceive tech output, but only if its physical, and only if that is appropriate to their form. Screens? No problem. Goggles or contacts? Maybe, if they have an appropriate physical form (which probably means an actual power besides manifestation- "metahuman form" would work, as would possesing a body that can use those items). Simsense AR? No way.
Making sense of what they read might be another matter...

Mongoose, that's what I said.

I always envisioned spirit "sight" to be like a FLIR or sonar generated image.

You see shapes and structures, but no colors, patterns, or images. To you a wall with a billboard is a blank wall.


-k

At least that would be consistent. Did anyone actually answer when I asked where exactly the rules mention this stuff?

This bit of the fluff from pg. 92 of Street Magic might help:

Thanks, that's handy. I like the 'primarily astral' part, which matches with KarmaInferno's 'shape-vision'.

Honestly, I'm fine with spirits (including free spirits) being effectively left out of the visual/technological world (presumably, it's the same for hearing and other physical senses). They rely on 'astral sense', which is none of these. It also means they would basically need 'interpreters' in some situations, which is also interesting. After all, they're doubly alien here (nonhuman and astral).

The only oddity is Hybrid Form Inhabitation spirits, which can apparently use DNI and operate DNI-connected equipment.

Theoretically, if it had hacking skills invested into it, and it inhabited a datajack-equipped meat body - could you have a spirit hacker, even to the point of it jumping into the Matrix?

...I think I need to make a spirit hacker NPC now. Aw, heck. Have the spirit inhabit a brain in a CCU. Install into a cyborg body. Fun times!

Makes me also wonder - I have a character that has the karma for an Ally Spirit. If I have it inhabit a Harley motorcycle, just how much of the Harley's systems can the spirit operate?




-k

The trick here is that the Hybrid form is no longer a pure spirit, but a mesh of a physical body and the spirit that cannot be dissociated. The fusion of the host of and the spirit become something else, closer to a dual-natured critter like a shapeshifter (who can perfecty see computer display and) than to a materialized or possessing spirit.

Don't forget that a hybrid form isn't something you get to choose, KarmaInferno. It's not clear to me that the Flesh Form doesn't have at least similar benefits, though. It says it retains all abilities, natural and augmented, etc. It also has Realistic Form, although it seems very redundant.

I can choose just fine if I'm the GM.

I just like the idea of some super-hacker nemesis as a foil for the players, that keeps popping up.

And when they FINALLY track him down, he turns out to not be some nerdy hacker, but a dual-natured spirit monstrosity.

And yes, player can't choose, but they can attempt balance the odds so it's more likely that the opposed roll falls in the -2/+2 range that results in Hybrid Form. Mostly by trying to ensure both sides are rolling the same number of dice.

My main curiosity is, why can they use DNI when no other spirit merge can? If so, logically shouldn't a spirit hybrid form inhabiting an electronic device also get to use the tech?



-k

You just quoted me suggesting that flesh form can, so it's not 'no other merge'. Of course, it's only a suggestion, because it's entirely possible that flesh form acts more like Possession (no tech).

I'm not sure how much choice the player actually has in balancing. They'd have to use stronger or weaker spirits, or less suitable vessels, right? Neither of those are sacrifices you really want to risk.

Well, figure out what your host's Willpower + Intuition is. That in itself isn't easy without metagaming, though.

Limit the spirit's Force to half that total. Add Binding dice as needed to keep the dice pools even.

It's pretty good odds the net hits will fall into the -2/+2 range. You'll get more variance the higher the pool counts are, of course.



-k

Right, but you *want* a high Force. Otherwise, why bother?

Well, a PC investing an Ally spirit may only be conjuring a Force 2 to 4.

Ally spirits get crazy expensive karma-wise, after all.




-k

It's almost like a poem.


Anyway, to track back to earlier in the topic, social modifiers for Magic/low Essence, what about something like this:

Having capabilities different from a normal (meta)human makes you different. You project one (or even two) of the following vibes:

A) Mechanized: comes from having invasive or lots of augmentations (particularly cybernetic). The person is accustomed to thinking about its body as a machine with specs and maintenance requirements, to be upgraded or changed as needed. The body is a vehicle to such a person. Technomancers can also pick up this vibe, because Resonance makes them more sympathetic to this viewpoint.
This vibe can be socially awkward with not-so-Mechanized and especially Mystic people. They may find it intimidating or otherwise off-putting. It's quite accepted in environments with lots of cyber and drones, like the more hands-on part of a corporation or the military.

B) Mystic: having far more connection to the Awakened world than normal people. The mystic may habitually stare into astral space, listen for magical voices (both a Mentor and spirits), pick up emotional currents and background count. They're more comfortable dealing with people than with machines, because machines seem less "there" to their mana-attuned senses. This makes places like very straight-dressing corporations and industrial wastelands very unpleasant for them, while they're comfortable and popular in neo-tribal and back to nature circles.

When meeting someone with a similar Vibe, there's no penalty; such people understand each other quite well. The vibes aren't necessarily opposed, although having both is rare.

How to put this into rules? I don't want a complex system. Maybe just noting that the character possess a particular Vibe, and it can be either Good Vibes or Bad Vibes as a +2/-2 social modifier, depending on what's appropriate.

Why? What does penalizing people's social skills for being good at their main function do to make the game more fun for anyone? Why generalize and stereotype characters, so that the street samurai and the shaman are less likely to get along? And what about people like an augmented adept, or a chaos mage who lives in a condoplex with all of the latest tech and has lots of VR on his commlink? What kind of "vibes" would they give off? And why would a cybered-up AmerIndian former Sioux Wildcat be more comfortable with a bunch of suits than with his fellow tribesmen, just because he has wired reflexes?

Things like that are why I think social modifiers should happen on a case-by-case basis, and how a character reacts to his or her cyber/magic should be a player decision, and vary greatly.

It's one of those roleplaying things: People think that good roleplaying means gimping yourself. Or rather, forcing people to gimp themselves enforces good roleplaying. That of course it total bollocks. The vice versa conclusion is even worse, so go figure.

The even worse reason might be to "balance" the advantages of cyberware. Game balance has always been a shoddy excuse for poor game design, so...

I didn't necessarily say penalize. It depends on what you're trying to do, to whom. When trying to intimidate, strong vibes may be a good thing. When talking to people with similar vibes, they wouldn't be a problem, they might actually create a feeling of sympathy.



If you're making players use social modifiers in their interactions with each others' characters, then there's something wrong with you.

It's a matter of taste. I like the "augmentation makes you a different person" idea. Just like I also appreciate the "magic makes you a different person" idea.



It's like the way the corp suits from accounting think the nerds from IT are pretty strange with their hawaii-shirts and long hair, oand vice versa. Only even more so. And yeah, maybe that Wildcat is actually getting strange looks from his tribe. They appreciate the way he "sacrifices the sanctity of his body" to serve his people, but they prefer he does so at a distance.

Also note that I specifically suggested a character might have both vibes, and perhaps that augmented adept does. They're not mutually exclusive, even though they seem an unlikely combination.

Differences that stick out aren't a bad thing in my book; sticking out is what pink mohawk is all about. SR4 is far too clean and sanitized for my taste.