The corps in Cannon have market to those Billions of Potential Customers through appealing to those several thousand through out the canon of this game. I was discussing why it complicated to make suites that work, not comparing it. However I can see the parallel.

Corporations will market security-level suites to shadowrunners through Johnsons and fixers. What's good for IntSec is good for the people trying to breach it. Not the billions of potential consumers, but certainly the millions of sekuritee profeshionuls that runners love to hate.

Designing a B&E suite is the purview of black market street clinics, should they have the money and time to do the R&D. I could see the Yaks with Ryumyo's backing trying this tack, but the corps? Everyone's gagging for the Renraku Red Samurai suites or the Ares Firewatch combo.

K look at profit line. Most likely they will develop these suites for military and there company men so they will already have R&D spent regardless of their target group. In order to get there they will build gear that they can test first in runners, saves getting test subjects for there corp and any bad rep spin off (not that they care).

They recoup allot of the money that they spend on hiring the shadow teams in the first place (in fact probably making more, in PC generation the player starts of with up to 250,000$ without taking any qualities) say they spend 100K to 150K on cyber, how many runs does that take from a non-elite runner. They then have these great suite's lined up for their company men upgrading it a bit to keep the edge on their home court (say allow runners normal/alpha, and company men with alpha/beta maybe increase capacity or level). This is just a quick of the top of the head thoughts on how a corp would benefit from targeting shadow.

I take your point Karoline, I guess I really was being a bit too much of a nice-guy gm with that one when it comes down to it, ever since my group got ahold of RC and SM I have seen way too many spell slingers and adepts (a pity, I really like playing adepts myself) so maybe I was trying to overcompensate and get my guys to take an honest look at the tech side of things. I'm not going to go quite as far as you suggest but I am going to make mucle toner, muscle augment and synthacardium the core of it, and increase the cumulative nuyen cost penalties. Any suggestion for numbers on that last?

I suppose bioware is the wave of the future and all, but why not Muscle Replacement instead of the Toner/Aug combo?

I'd alow custom as in unipe perfect you youe suts at all delta and a 10% incraese in price too paying the desingers. It's not bad or good alos a real bitch to hire a tech or two to desing build and implat it for you. Add in addapsin and biocompatabilty for the most out of your package. A perfectly custom suit will just not exist unless you hire some one to make it for you. Though I can see some better ones existing for stuff.

"It is all part of the holistic approach Evo takes to making a New You."

Honestly I just didn't want to fiddle around too much wth mixing and matching, though a corporation could and likely would use whatever gave them the best bang for the buck. Might use that in the nw version since I am ging to be doing more or lss a full reboot of my world.

I suppose, I suppose. I'm always trying to make stuff work on a budget.

Unfortunately, muscle replacement is one of the most overcosted essence-wise of all wares. If it cost half of what it currently does, it would fill its designated role much better without being at all OP.

Again, they're *cyberware* suites, right? No bioware?

Edit: I goofed by not looking at the chart, I shall now hand in my nerd card

It is true. The rules for suites as they stand are clearly cyber only.

Starting to feel like the Fat kid on the sports team trying to get noticed so I can play with the Big boys lol

Munchkin Cyber-ware: Taken as suite with discount of .9 (3.96) Total Cost: 114,525¥

1: Move-by-wire system (cyber ware) Level 2 [ESS: 3; cost: 85,000¥; +4 to reaction, +2 to dodge, +2 to initiative pass, Acts as skill-wire level 4]
2: Reaction enhancers ([cyber ware) level 1 (ESS: .6; Cost: 20,000$; +2 to reaction)
3: Cyber-eye (ware) level 3 (11/12) with Thermo-graphic Vision, smart-link, flash compensation, image link, eye recording unit, vision enhancement level 3, vision magnification (ESS: .4; Cost: 9,250¥)
4: Cyber-ear (ware) level 3 with Audio enhancement level 3, balance augmenter, damper, ear recording unit, sound link, increased sensitivity, spatial recognizer, select sound editor level 1 (ESS: .4; Cost: 13,000¥)

Looking at this we see a max starting package, maybe over the top would you allow this in your game for in PC generation. Just looking at it seems to be to much right?

But let’s say we add some background, down and dirty.

Starting PC’s player takes restricted Gear for the Move By wire sytem (-5BP)

PC now takes contact: Tyler McMahon (connection: 3/loyalty 4) R&D development at EVO,
Now Tyler just got wind of this suite coming out of development, gets word to his old friend that he knows this could help him as he busts into the shadow world.

K PC now knows this gear is in existence.

PC now takes Contact (connection 2/loyalty 3) Max Milller, who works for EVO shipping. PC contacts him and asks to see if he can make one shipment disappear for a few thousand ¥. Lets say 1BP worth (5,000¥)
OR
PC takes contact (connection 4/loyalty 3) Max Miller the Fixer and he arranges the same deal as above but now PC has a contact as a fixer

PC now has the gear, but what does he do with it.

PC takes contact Street Doc (Connection 3/Loyalty 3) Who performs the needed surgery, but needs to do some heavy on the Job training. Costs 1BP more (5,000$)

Now we have a PC that has an amazing background story, three important contacts that he will need while running, and some of the cost for the cheaper gear is subsumed in BP for the cost of doing Business and some BP for other Gear, stats, qualities, Skill will be used up on contacts.

This I would allow in my game, how about you?

Yep the only reason to take mucle replacement would be on a really odd bio heavy build. Even then its hardly good value. 60k for rating 4 bio in str and aglity 20k for it in cyber. but the essance diffrance is hardly close. If you wanted to pay up 60k on upping your str and agility let see how the compire. Well you can get that cyber at Alpha not standard so the 4 essence drops to a massive 3.2 while the bio still costs only 1.6 essence for 20k more. As I said only in a build very bio heavy would it be worth it as it would cost the same in essance and is cheaper. And assuming char gen its better as it only uses on restricted gear. How ever not many builds need to up both Strength and Agility equaly if at all. All in all you NEED to minmax for it to be worth thinking of.

Though in char gen and taking more than 3.2 in Bio it could be a smart move. Using the saved restriced gear for a Synaptic Booster 3 and adding some more bio platetet factorys or what ever works could just make you a good bio sam there and save you a bit of BP. Bus as I said you'd need to twink it a bit.

Or For Flavorflav reasons

I dunno, I really like Muscle Replacement. It's incredibly cheap for a big boost. You can keep your natural Strength low-ish, and get that high Agility you need to do anything.

@naga-nuyen:For me, it'd depend on who that package is being marketed to. MBW's are hard on people, a lot harder than wired reflexes. I can't see that being used for a lot of folk.

I like the additions, though. EVO heavy, but I do like them. It makes everyone interconnected, and gives a story hook if the project manager's boss wants to track that model down...

@Yera: I've always liked muscle replacement for that reason. It does what muscle aug/toner does without having to get both. Why wouldn't the augmentation already be toned? Why are you going back in to shape it up after slapping it in there?

Hell, why wouldn't it be a suite on its own since you're doing all that work to the same strands of tissue?

Muscle replacement is 1 essence per rating, where as Muscle Aug/Toner is .2 each for a total of .4

That's a HUGE difference in essence cost.

Lower the essence cost then?

On another note what do you think military/security suites would look like? Specifically for people like Green Berets, Delta Force, Red Samurai, etc. Like the real special forces types. The security suites in the book just don't seem good enough for them. I would try and throw one together but I'm away from my books at the moment and don't know the rules by heart.

Yes, but replacement has four grades to choose from to drop that down.

It's not superefficient, but it can still bring the cost down some.

And it's good for a more grungy campaign where your PCs can't afford the fancy stuff yet. I bet almost every Street Sam to be bought MR.

Umm, bio has grades too

Yeah but Delta grade while a much cheaper .5 essence, is going to run you 200k
That's pretty expensive.

Yep as I sated in my post after a quick edit you need over 3.2 points in bio b4 for taking only alpha Mucle replacement is really worth it assumign as we normaly do that essance is >than nuyen that or it might be worth while longer term if you plan and ripping it out usinf the hole for something else and pickign up the bio later as its more pricy.

I think muscle replacement should be .5 essence, or .75 at most.

Quick question, how do you handle the math for adding grades with suites. (All Alpha grade) For W. reflexes 2 (ESS: 3) Muscle replacement 2 (ESS: 2) rank 4 cyber eyes and cyber ears (ESS: .8 ) reaction enhancers level 2 (ESS: .6 )

Would it be figure out each piece of gear at .8 modifier then add it all up and multiply by the Suite .9? Or add those to multipliers together to get the final cost?

Also I figure you would double the ware by the grade and add it all up then multiply by the suite cost multiplier?

*shrug* I think it's fair to have a powerful mod that trades dirt-cheap-ness for high Essence cost. You can always replace the Replacement later.

But it's not the powerful you need a build requireing a hight STR for it really to pay off.

I think your on target and on topic bro. If it feels like to much of an advantage then scale back. Cyber-is always more front loaded then magic, which is fine. I personally think thats a good grouping, Its super illegal but thats cool too (just make sure to make that Reaction enhancer rating 2). I personally don't usually bother with ear or eye enhancements (my character's mother gave him those!)





I think the background is good, its a solid portion of a background, i probably wouldn't make'em pay an extra BP seeing as she/he already put quality points and purchased contract just for this. That paired with how he/she was already first class BA, some motivation, some family or other cool plot hooks and he/she can now make the jump to the next level and start running with other SRs.

What I did was add the costs togeter, apply the modifier for the suite, then the modifier for grade.

I belive the new RAW it's in the german errata (the German books got errata but English don't as CGL has a dumb policy of only publishing the errata when they print a book updated with it) way to do this is additively with essence modifiers as IIRC multiplicity you get weird cases with the second hand ware rules. Second hand apha costign the same as standard but using less essence and being just as available or almost is one. How ever it means things like adapising and compatability nad grades are worth mroe now. With the biggest essence discount on cyber now being 80(90)% from Biocompat+Adapis+suite+Delta(+surge biocompat an iffy area if you can double up there) that is quite good as the max for bio is only 60% if playing a cyber twinked char then delta anythign is almost certainly better than the bio if I recal the math and the things that aren't are even cheaper as delta bio as they'll the get extra -50%

This topic's pretty fun. I've never made a cyberware suite, but this topic has me wanting to.

It's Awesome! Get on it and show what you come up with!

I wouldn't say that suites defy all laws of economics. Its often economically beneficial to sell more of your products in a single lump, even if you get less money for each. First, it cuts the cost per item of sales, support, and distribution. Second, it incentivizes customers to fill all their needs with your items, rather than picking you for some needs and a competitor for others. With cyberware causing essence loss, filling some sod with your cyber stops him from buying anybody elses!
Reduced essence cost is probably as simple as shared components, much as software suites can share blocks of code. Its a bit of a stretch for some pairings (bone lacing in a suite with an encephalon) but pretty obvious for others (bone lacing and spurs). That's why suites typically have a theme of being mostly headware, mostly bodyware, etc.

The Muscleware upgrade rules I wrote up let you duplicate just the functions of basic Muscle Replacement for .6e and ¥7,400 per level, but with a greater impact on healing rolls (-1 per 2 levels, in addtion to essence loss).
Probably not as good as the muscle replacement / toner combo (unless you can afford delta grade, or won't be getting the bioware essence cost halved) but it is less than 1/2 the price.
The cyber equivalents of Muscle Augmentation or Muscle Tone (IE, boosting only one stat) are not quite as good- .5e for the toner equivalent, .4e for the augmentation equivalent, about half the cost of bioware, and minimal health impact (-1 die on healing per 3 levels). Obviously you would never buy both, since the full system is better in all ways.

I really should PDF them and put them up somewhere- I don't think Catalyst is ever gonna get back to me on my proposal.

Here's a suite I made a while ago.

Marine, Recon, Cybersuite (also adopted by the other UCAS special forces)

This cybersuite was developed by the Marine Corps in conjunction with Ares. The Marine Corps wanted to have a standard package that would allow it’s Recon members to benefit from modern battlefield technology and systems, to be more effective and harder to detect. The Corps considered adding in wired reflexes, but in an effort to keep expenses down, removed them from package. There are three variants of the package, standard, alpha and beta (with a rumored but never proven delta version).

The Auto Injector usually has a mixture of combat drugs (such as cram) and medical drugs, and is tied into the biomonitor. The Commlink usually has Tacsoft (rating 4) on it.

Auto Injector (with up to 6 doses)
Biomonitor
Commlink (rating 4 with sim module)
Cyberears (rating 1, dampner, recording unit, sound link, spatial recognition)
Cybereyes (rating 3, flare compensation, image link, low-light, recording unit, smartlink, thermographics, vision enhancement 2, vision magnification)
Orientation System
OXSYS Cybergill

Standard version: Essense cost 1.485, nuyen cost 20,700.
Alpha version: Essence cost 1.118, nuyen cost 41,400
Beta version: Essence cost 1.0395, nuyen cost 82,800
Rumored Delta version: Essence cost 0.7425, nuyen cost 207,700

Hey, where are the rules that define the bonus to essence cost as it comes to a cyberware suite? or is there one? I could swear I read that there was one.

Augmentation, page 48

Those are very good arguments, and I'd be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the fluff specifically talks about there being massive (or at least non-trivial) amounts of research being put into suites to make them actually work. If it was purely a case of the company offering a discount for a package deal, then there is no reason not to just toss out a discount to anyone who buys more than, say, 4 pieces of ware from the same company.

I suppose you could argue that the fact that they can use slightly fewer parts would help offset the cost of research, but the fluff makes me think multi-million research, which isn't going to be offset enough that you can offer a 10% discount on the package, especially when you consider the limited market that most of those suites have since you have to factor in customer wealth on top of their desire. While people might think the cyberlogician would be nice to help boost their job performance, it is doubtful that they would have, or be willing to spend (Because it won't boost their performance that much) the massive amount that it costs.

@Mistwalker - I really like that suite. Seems very balanced to me.

Yeah for a totally custom suite your looking at all delta and x20 base cost for an extra 10% in my eyes. There's no real point not to go all delta with a custom suite for just you. And the extra cost represents hiring them to research and designing it to use less essence. The pros are that for a single person the research can go easer and cheaper what with out having to work out how a suite will still use less parts and minimise essence loss but still fit in to the whole range of metatypes and body types. though your lookign at hireing a SOTA lab to dev something for one guy. These things are likely for the Bruce Wayne of Shadowrunners and other obsesenly rich users of cyber. And you won't be getting it next day either I'd likely roll dice along the liens of software dev/blueprint making to see how long it takes them to design and then add on my build times for ware needing customisation or delta. I might let a PC in a none super highrollign game to pull it off as a campaign goal. Still I'd love to see if theres any cyber a fully twinking char can get. Looking at the maxium discount of 80%. I think one would be pushing it. For suites based off other I might lower the cost and time as they have some work done.

I've never really thought about the fact that there is 80% available. It isn't easy, but it is possible. All we need are a few more things that give us those extra 20 percentiles to be able to have infinite cyber

So, taking into account the 'half for less', as long as you have more cyber than bioware, you can get 80%/75% essence discount, which means you can fit just over 24 essence worth of cyber/bio in a single person. That is exceedingly impressive.

Well you could, if there actually was that much compatible ware to install.

I'm sure there is.

Commlink .2
Control Rig .5
Datajack .1
Sim Module .2
Ultrasound Sensor .3
Voice Modulator .2
Cybereye IV .5
Cyberear IV .5
Titanium Bone Lacing 1.5
MBW III 5
Dermal Sheathing III 1.6
Chameleon coating .2
Cyberfoot (for nanohive) 0.25
Skillwire Expert System 0.1
Attention Co Processor .3
Radar Sensor .3
Smuggling Compartment .2
Reaction Enhancers I .3
Total: 12
And that isn't even getting into crazy type stuff. Could add in some weird other stuff if you really wanted. Now, bioware might be a bit harder.

Enhanced Articulation .3
Muscle Augmentation IV .8
Muscle Toner IV .8
Platelet Factory .2
Suprathyroid Gland .7
Symbioites III .6
Synthacaridum III .3
Tailored Pheromones III .6
Cerebral Booster III .6
Sleep regulator .15
Reflex Recorder (At least two or a group) .2
Enhnaced Pheromone Receptors III .1
Gecko Hands .1
Echolocation .1
Reception Enhancers III .6
Trauma Damper .2
Carapace Symbiont .2
Mender Endosymbiont .2
Genetech doubled because it lacks grades:
Genetic Optimizations (Agility, Reaction) .8
Adapsin .4
Double Elastin .4
PuSHeD .2
Qualia .8
Reakt .8
Synch .6

Total 10.75
Leaves you some room to throw in extra optimizations, reflex recorders, and/or some of the weirder stuff. Or of course you could always fill up those extra points with more cyber, because even with the half off, cyber has a bigger essence discount. Of course because the genetech lacks grades you're only going to end up with something like 21 or so essence worth of ware.