So the Granite Shell metagenic quality grants 3/3 hardened armor which "is not compatible with any worn armor." What about all other forms of armor? I'm specifically referring to Troll natural armor (which is cumulative with all other forms of armor), Rhino Hide (I don't think this one does), and mystic armor.


edit;
As a secondary, related question, what is natural skin modification? The Dermal Deposits metagenic quality? All other dermal alterations?

Mystic armor would work with it for sure, but the mystic armor part wouldn't be hardened. Rhino Hide would be incompatible with it. I'm not so sure about the troll natural armor. I would think it would get replaced, but it might stack, though once again the extra wouldn't be hardened.

Really Hardened armor at that low of a level is a joke. Even a hold-out will break the hardened part on such low ratings.

Well, it protects you from very weak punches, that you'd just soak anyway.

Hehe, like I said...

If you get it for a pixie, it can protect them from a stray sneeze, which otherwise might kill them.

Drake's get it at level 4, giving them the awesome power of immunity to poorly shot non-AP, Light pistols.

And punches from below-average strength humans.

Also, there are no listed rules on how to stack hardened armor with non-hardened armor (eg. drake with mystic armor [the adept power] or the Armor spell and a troll with Granite Skin).

General consensus is add the two but damage below the hardened amount is ignored. Damage below the total is stun, otherwise physical.

But it still makes 4 (or in the case of Granite Skin, 3) hardened armor neigh useless.

If your GM feels like being generous use the following house rule:

Hardened armor counts as automatic successes from a damage resistance test (as if you had added those dice and rolled 5s).
Spirits get their Force in Immunity to Normal Weapons, not their Force doubled.
Armor piercing does effect hardened armor (how your group decides to order things is up to you; eg. if hardened armor is pierced first or last).

High force spirits are slightly less crazy (you only need 6 damage to hurt a F6 spirit, not 12, but you do less damage per shot) and the lower end stuff (F1 spirits, drakes, etc) actually see a noticeable boost from having hardened armor over normal armor.

Sounds like a decent house rule to me. But i doubt my gm would ever go for it.

Right, all we have is a FAQ, and God forbid we look at that.

Well for once at least the FAQ:s answer makes sense and doesn't contradict the rules, which isn't really surprising as its only stating the logical(and common sense) way to handle it.
But it actually does fail to mention how AP affect thinks, if i shoot that drake with a hold-out loaded with APDS rounds does it:
1.Bounce of as the DV is only 4, dammit the required 1 net hit raises even this to 5

Okey now can some one tell me how you get an attact with DV 4 or less.

Strength 1 person attacking someone with 1 net success unarmed. I think that's a DV of 2 stun.

Crossbows, namely the light or pistol variety. Respectively damage codes of 3P and 2P

Oh god.

That means an Otomo can have stupidly ridiculous amounts of armor (in the 30-40 range), still look like a guy wearing normal clothing, and bounce anything 10 DV or lower. If it wants to be obvious, it can bounce anything 18DV or lower.




-k

Yep.

Why's everybody forgetting the real use of that? - Astral combat! Most spirts inflict only F/2 damage in Astral Space, making a Drake imune to most spirits up to F8.





Just wait a second! Why on earth is she getting the natural armor bonus of the metahuman form in her dracoform?!? That's plain nonsense.

I almost had that option once, my character (that none of the other characters knew was a drake) would have duked it out with a spirit, but someone pegged it with high velocity autofire first.



Is there anywhere it says that it doesn't work that way? I'm pretty sure the rules make no distinction, just that "in drake form the drake gains XYZ."

Yeah, don't start trying to make the drake rules make sense.

I thought it was also "In drake form, the drake loses anything from their metahuman form (Like ware)"

If the metahuman form's armor bonus would apply to the dracoform, why wouldn't it work the other way around? As the troll doesn't get the drake's armor, why should the drake get the troll's bonus? That sounds somehow odd.

Give me some time to interpret all the rules to the absolute best possible while trying to get as far away from what they say as possible and I'll tell you how they work (I'm joking people, lighten up).

Nope. Augmentations have a paragraph specific to them.
Also a line like that would mean that a drake would lose "mage" or "adept" in dracoform. As well as their movement speed (trolls are faster ;D ) and gain "no speed."

Except mage and adept aren't linked to metahuman form. Movement speed is though. I thought drakes had their own movement speed though that they would gain.

Quite simply, troll armor is linked to the physical characteristics of the troll, but a drake in drake form doesn't have the physical characteristics of a troll, so why should the drake form get troll armor?

I thought their speed was based off their original form (as in, 1.5x or something).

Because drake is a modification of their original form, not a brand new different form they take - which is also why their stats are increased by an amount and not turned into a completely different statline.

That's their fly or swim speed. Their walking rate is unspecified (and assumed to be their metahuman speed).



And this.

Oh, thought it was a brand new form like shifters. I've never cared to read up on drakes all that much.

Anyway, yes: drake is a 'power up transformation' on top of the existing metahuman base. You keep natural metahuman stats (Attributs, mutations, etc.), and add drake buffs (stats, armor, flight). Not all of this makes sense: a troll drake with a couple SURGE move-boosts can fly fast compared to a troll drake *without* 'ropy leg muscles'. *shrug*

Yeah, it's not just "I turn into a Drake".

It's "I turn into a Troll Drake".





-k

Honestly, it'd probably be better if they worked more like shifters, but who knows. :/

Even shifters are basically the same. Their metahuman form is only cosmetic, with the notable exception of cyberware/bioware and a couple of Powers, just like drakes. And in fact, I may be wrong with their Powers - I think they keep them in any form.

Nah, only very few powers do they keep, like Enhanced Vision.

Ropy wing muscles.

The Draconomicon is also a good one for that.

It specifically says 'leg', Draco18s. Obviously, you can adapt things; I'm just pointing out that you have to, if you make the mistake of reading any fluff.

It also doesn't make sense for snakey drakes who have no wings.

Exactly: they fly like pixies, using magic. Ropy legs = moar magic.

Fixed that smiley for you.

Also, moar magic should be a link.

It should be noted that fluff is not crunch.

EDIT: There could be a Positive Quality called "Banana Hammock" that reads "You have a banana hammock. Increase the character's Walking and Running rates by one-half (round down) its current value," which results in the same mechanical benefit as Celerity.

EDIT EDIT: Also expressed as "A = B, B = C, then A = C," with A being Celerity, B being movement speed, and C being the factored fly speed of a drake, carrying a coconut, and the resulting wind-speed velocity. Or something.

Should it? Kinda obvious.

Anyway, this is all only in support of my original point: it *doesn't* make sense, and you shouldn't expect it to.

Eastern or European?

Well played, good sir.
Oriental or Occidental drake indeed.

I play 'em where I can.

Now as long as I stay out of that other thread...

Bonus points for referencing the Jargon File in a Shadowrun forum. I always loved the More Magic story.

In out games except for AZT the corps aren't evil at all. they're a-moral.Like Roger Delgado's Master they want their control and will not go out of their way to hurt people but couldn't care less if someone is hurt by what they do in pursuit of their goals.

Well, it depends what evil means. And that's a much bigger, older discussion. Suffice it to say, apathy could be a definition of evil, just as much as 'sadism'.

In the new season of Venture Bros. (spoiler alert), Professor Impossible uses Cody (the Human Torch knock-off) as a 'clean energy source'. This constantly causes Cody excruciating pain, but it's not being done for the *purpose* of causing that pain. It's just a convenient energy source, and he doesn't *care*.

How does Granite Shell work with the hardened armor granted by drake? Does the character have 7 points of hardened armor? Or just the 4 from drake?

Should stack and give 7 points.

7 points of hardened armor should be enough to shrug off pistol shots. Well, maybe some of the lighter pistols, at least.

How does Hardened Armor interact with Backround Count? Since it is a paranormal ability, shouldn't having a Magic of 0 remove it?

Sure.

Sooo.... Drop a F12 Mana Static on a Great Dragon and laugh when he loses his 20 points of Hardened Armor? And what about abilities that give Hardened Armor and don't gift a Magic attribute? Where'd that Broken RAW thread go?