And again, there have been a few questions about RAW on our gaming table.

The Spell Shapechange, works only on Creatures that are in a Body Rating + - 2 of you. And you get to assign points = hits on the Attributes.

Now I have a few questions

Lets say a Troll wants to change into a Human (according to errata possible) since the Troll has Body 8 and the Human on average 3, not really possible.
IF you take natural maximums though, it would -> Body 6 Human. Is this possible? (We have currently Housruled it, that if the Troll has 3 Successes, he can push Body close enough to his own and work the spell)

Also I was wondering how exactly the net hits are divided. Do you add them to every physical attribute? (So much abuse potential there)

cheers
Wulffyre

First off, it's FAQ possible, which is different.

Secondly, it's the average attributes, not maximum attributes of the critter, so you can't have a Body 8 troll go to a human because human's Body is 6 at natural maximum. You can, however, learn Decrease (Body), hit yourself with it, and get more options that way. Same thing with Increase (Body).

Lastly, net successes (actually, I think all successes - there's no threshold) are added to all physical attributes.

Yes, it's a powerful spell. And yes, there are downsides.

EDIT: Here's a thread about the same subject from a little earlier.

Wow, really? I may have to make a human mage with elf poser and have her shapeshange into an elf and get +5 or so to all physical stats.

Gotta say at my table you can't shapechange into a metahuman. Too weird, seems to go too strongly against the spirit of the spell, and too much encroachment on physical mask.

Anyway I had another question about this spell.

If you are on drugs (say, K-10)when you cast the spell, does your critter form benefit from those drugs?

It's a mess of a spell, and the '+X to All' is the most egregious part. For a spell whose primary purpose is to change shape, why is it also an everything-super-buff? Bleh.

I dunno if it was the thread linked, but I still say it should do this (quick and dirty 'fix'): net hits is how far from your own Body you can jump, and no change to stats.

**Begin Disclaimer: The following may or may not conform to RAW/RAI and is solely IMO :End Disclaimer**

As a GM I would have no problem with a Troll using the Shapechange spell to transform into a Human, though they might end up looking like a rather large Human. I don't feel this would seriously break the game in any way and given the high DV for the spell I think it should have a greater range than merely +/- 2 of casters Body, but I also feel that +1 per hit added to base attribute ratings of the form taken is completely ridonkulous.

Wouldn't it make more sense if every hit generated on the Sorcery roll allowed the caster to achieve a form +/- 1 Body point away from their own? Then a more skilled caster would be able to assume Shapes much larger or smaller than a less skilled caster.

That's what I just (re-)suggested, Redcrow.

yes

@Yerameyahu
Because neeing an animal has some downsides. Like no ware, no armor etc.

I guess they thought: If the infiltrator is turned into a cat to infiltrate a base, he has a hard time to survive.

And what shell we do with the hits anyway.

I guess. I mostly see people talking about turning into Rhinos and things. I suppose we could do both (divide hits between Body-difference and stats), or use the OP's misapprehension (divide hits among stats, not +X-all).

Yeah, something like 'each hit lets you raise a single stat by 1' That way you could 'buff' agility for sneaking, or body for soaking bullets or strength for beating on someone.

So I'm a troll and I shapechange into a human.

What are a human's base physical stats? 3's in everything?
What if I'm a human and shapechange into a Troll, do I get an 8 str and 8 body? a 5 and 5?

You people really should look at the FAQ some time.

It specifically only states that it works for humans - not any other metatype or metavariant. Only mundane critters (technically only from the Core rulebook, but I think most people would allow those from Running Wild also) and humans.

And yes, Shapechange is a powerful spell for what it does, and I don't think it needs to be changed from where it is (except allowing the forms from Running Wild).

Here's my proposed "fix," and the House Rule I use at my table: you cannot use Shapechange or (Critter) Form to turn into a human, but there is an alternate spell with the same drain called (Metahuman) Form that can be taken for any metatype. It gives you the average stats for a race (+2 to most, if any attribute is below 6 then the + is subtracted by the difference - IE: an attribute of 1/6 would start at 3, 1/5 would be 2, 1/4 and under would be 1, whereas a 5/10 would be 7, 2/7 would be 4...). Net successes are only there to help the spell not be Counterspelled away too easily, and you cannot use the spell to emulate a specfic person - that's what (Physical) Mask is for. You simply look like what a metavariant yourself would.

I'm sure you're well aware how highly most people place the FAQ, but that aside I don't see where it says that in the FAQ. Ah, there, found it. It does not actually say that you cannot shapechange into a troll or anything like that, it says that you cannot take Troll Form as a type of (Critter) form spell. Now, it stands to reason to extend that you cannot shapechange into a troll for the same reason (A troll being 'paranormal') but it is interesting to note that if the FAQ is right about a troll being paranormal, then nothing from Running Wild would be viable as something you could transform into, because they are all paranormal (Excluding dogs and such), because they all came about by virtue of the awakening (Which seems to be the definition of paranormal).

So the metahuman form wouldn't have the stat boosting, but the shapechange spell still would? Well, then I'll just use my above idea but go from a human that turns into an elf to a elf that turns into a human. Then I get those bonus charisma points.

there are 50+ mundane (=not paranormal) animals in Running Wild, have you read it ?!

No no... Running Wild has a mundane animal section that has stats for eagles, rhinos, hippos, elephants, revised stats for dogs, crows, ferrets, ants, spiders... ect ect ect.. Page 86, not page 100.


No because humans would also be moved into the (Metahuman) Form spell also, meaning that you can't get attribute gains off of that spell either. Otherwise it follows the attribute replacement system of Shapechange, ie: only physical attributes and the attributes you use are average for the new form. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that.

Each metahuman form requires a different (Metahuman) Form to use, such as (Oni) Form, (Troll) Form, or (Gnome) Form.

You'd also gain the mundane "Powers" of the race: for example, you (Metahuman) Form into a troll and gain his thermographic vision, +1 Reach, and +1 armor, but you wouldn't gain a gnome or fomori's Arcane Arrester.

Yes, I realize that. As I said, excluding dogs and such. What I didn't understand was why Neraph said that shapechange didn't work with the critters from Running Wild. If he is talking about the mundane critters, then they do work with the shapechange spell. If he is talking about the paranormal critters, then that doesn't work because troll form doesn't work.

Yes, but humans are also non-paranormal animals, and thus included in the shapechange spell, unless you're making arbitrary exceptions to the shapechange spell. And even with that exclusion, well, I guess I'll go with a gorilla, monkey, chimpanzee, or something similar with opposable thumbs. That would actually be a quite interesting character concept I think.

By RAW it specifically mentions only critters in the core rulebook. A minor point, but still a valid RAW ruling. Of course, I don't know if they changed it for 4A...

EDIT: As for excluding humans from Shapechange/(Critter) Form, I get behind the idea because humans are simply different from all other animals. The DS community can get behind it because of some link between ED/SR and something about Naming or Named or something from ED.

Note that it says 'consult... for physical attributes'. It does not say 'this is a full list of what you can turn into'. There are after all, only 4 critters in that section that would actually be options, and the section on the spell even specifically mentions Eagle Form being an option, but, by the way you are reading it, it isn't because there are no stats for eagles in the Critters section.

Actually, they aren't different from all other animals in any way whatsoever. We have no significant biological differences from any other animal. Intelligence isn't a factor when defining what is and isn't an animal. Dolphins for example are intelligent, perhaps more so than us, just in different ways, yet we still classify them as animals. The only thing that makes Humans different from all other animals in any way is that we are Humans, and so automatically assume that we are superior/different from all other animals.

Yeah, I don't follow any of that ED crap stuff, so have no idea about the Naming.

Which means absolutely Squat in our games... Shadowrun IS NOT Earthdawn... Crossover potential notwithstanding...

Anyways...

It really depends on your definitions. Regardless, there's obviously something that humans have that no other creature in the animal kingdom does - we're the only ones who use such extensive tools, learn and care about our environment (apart from a simple biological want of keeping a home), exploit its resources, and have many of the other "higher" functions of the brain (religion, philosophy, science...). There's something humans have that the rest of the animals do not, and it's not a strictly biological difference.

That does not change the fact that we are STILL Animals...

I think the issue here is that you can't transform into something you already are with the spell, and all metahumans are still the same species, regardless of metatype/subspecies. A dragon, say, could use the spell to turn into a metahuman, or a sasquatch, but not a troll or an oni, they're already homo sapiens.

Again, it really depends on what definition you're using, and your definition is shaped by your world-view. I'm trying not to get too far into a theological debate here - I'm just proposing an alternate ruling (and I already mentioned it's a House Rule) that helps retain game balance.

You can easily hand-wave my spells by simply stating that, for whatever reason, MAGIC is the defining force that differentiates (meta)humans from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Why are you arguing in favor of being able to super-power a spell anyways? Under your argument, Human Form is a valid spell, meaning with a measly 6 successes you can get augmented max for all attributes. Under my definition this would not be possible.

I think "magic is arbitrary" will have to work as a defense for the rule here. I still think the attribute boost is kind of ridiculous, but I'll have to playtest it to make sure.

I think it's needed, otherwise you'd be gimping yourself completely when you take on a critter form... Many of the things you'll be doing in a critter form are physical skills that a mage is unlikely to have, so you'll be going by the default skill. You have no gear, you have no weapons or armor and you may well be a creature with a lower Body than yourself. The attribute boosts are needed so you can actually do bestial things with a reasonable chance of success. Otherwise, you're turning into a dog who can't bite, a cat who falls off of chairs and a shark who'll lose in a swimming race with a person and a bug who can be squashed like a bug.

Well, actually, it's entirely biological. It's called the Neocortex. Technically all mammals have primitive versions of it, but the ratio of neocortex size to the size of the whole brain in humans is astronomically higher than in any other species. The great apes are a distant second at about 1/10th the number of sulci/gyri (grooves and folds in the neocortex that allow us to have more surface area without taking up much more space). This allows us to have a larger social memory, which leads to a larger group size, which leads to more rigid and stratified social constructs such as organized religion and philosophy. Obviously, the larger working memory would also be a boon in studying the laws of science (or anything else for that matter ).



~R~

That is an entirely reasonable viewpoint, but I don't think magic is required to adhere to reasonable viewpoints.

From a game-balance perspective I think it's kinda screwy that Shapechange is the best disguise spell for an ork.

I think I'll ban Shapechange and just keep Critter Form.

Druguar yes or no?

1. My opinion is not shaped by my world-view... it is a scientific fact, which I Stated as such... You really cannot argue the science behind it... Humans ARE Animals... we may be smarter than most of the other animals, have opposable thumbs, and have the ability to reason, but that does not mean we are not animals. As for Magic... Humans are not a product of Magic, while unfortunately, the rest of Metahumanity is... an Ork is not a normal animal, he is a Paranormal Animal... But an animal nonetheless; and since a Human is not paranormal, well, that leaves only a single classification remaining... A Human is Just an Animal.

2. See, I do not have a problem with a Human Form Spell in the first place... it has seen such low useage that it is a non-concern in my book... Besides, Most Non-Mages have physicals in the 8+ Range anyways thanks to Cyber and Bioware (with the possible exception of Body), and a good number of mages have physical stats in that range if they want to, so why would you complain about the equality of the issue? I personally do not see that as a problem...

As for not being able to take on a Troll Form or Ork Form or other Non-Human Form, them's the breaks... Magic is fickle some times. Again, I have no problem with that in the least...

Anyways

Magic is arbitrary. It is equally possible for humans to be 'special' or not-special. It is 100% up to whichever dev happened to write that section, or to the GM running the table.

I can argue it.

Because the definition of a thing is not always the same in the the real world, and in a game.

Whether a human in an animal or not in the real world is irrelevant to the situation.

The question is, does SHADOWRUN define a human as an animal or not? Or, more directly, does your GM?



-k

Yep, but given that the spell didn't make an exception, and by all scientific definitions Humans are Animals, it stands to reason that the spell works with humans.

Scientific definitions as decided today; 18th century scientists may well have recoiled at the idea, and maybe in the future classifications of living things will change again. Taxonomic distinctions are ultimately arbitrary; where one species begins and another ends, the difference between animals and plants, sapience and nonsapience aren't laid out in bright lines; our scientific understanding is not immune to cultural and species bias.

That said, the discussion is ultimately irrelevant to the spell. Let's look at the text from SR4A:

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter...

Critter. It then references the Critters section (though I understand, as a reference, not an absolute list) But "non-paranormal critter" means something specific. As K-Inferno said, it's the game definition that matters. In SR "critter" means something specific - a non-metahuman animal. Again from SR4A, p292:
"Critters refer in general to all non-human creatures that characters may encounter."

So we've got a game-specific definition. You don't need to specifically say "This affect critters, but not humans," when the definition of "critter" is "non-human." Debate over the specifics of what makes something an animal and the morphological differences between humans and other mammals is fascinating, but you can't shapeshift into a human or metahuman by RAW. Period.

Ah, nice, I'd missed that it defined critter to specifically not include humans. You're quite right then, shapechange can't make you a human, or any other metahuman race. The FAQ fails again.

It does still have some potential use for things like monkeys and gorillas and such that could potentially use your equipment. But, I don't think there are any that are quite metahuman size, so it would be taxing, which makes the boost not such a bad thing.

P.S. AFAIK Humans have always been classified as animals as long as Taxonimy as we know it has been around. And while you're right, species are somewhat arbitrary, other things are not (Or at least significantly less so), and there is certainly no argument that humans are not animals (Unless you want to get into religion or something, at which point discussion becomes largely futile)

very interesting way this topic is going btw.


All in all, we decided to use a Version, where the endresult of your Body needs to be within +2- of your own.
So a Body 8 Troll, could transform into a human, as long as he gets 3 Successes on the test.

---------------------

While I am at it another question.

When a blind perosn, with the Metatechnique "Channeling" is posessed by a Spirit, can he see? As he becomes a dual natured being, that always percieves astrally?

Being blind does not hinder astral perception in any way, being possessed or not

Given the assumption that you *could* shapechange into a human, yeah, that makes sense. It would also hard-cap your body at +2 of yours, limiting the number of successes you could use to boost your attributes... (not a bad thing IMO)

Going back to another sub-argument (Neraph's usually involved in this one), I'm not wild about the spell using your augmented Body (esp. from a non-permanent source, like a drug or a spell) to satisfy the requirements, either. SR doesn't do a very good job differentiating between size, mass, toughness, etc., and I'm know that's a simplicity issue. I wouldn't really want a 20-stat system. However, it does kind of tweak your brain when it's a question of shapeshifting into elephants. :/ I guess if you stipulated that the Shapechange automatically dropped the instant the effect sustaining the Body increase on your original form dropped, that would be fine. I certainly wouldn't allow multiple Shapechanges to chain (if with the associated multiple sustaining penalties), because that's not the same kind of persistent Body-increasing effect.

I think that it should be your un-augmented body stat.
That makes complete sense to me.

Drugs that give you +1 or +2 body do not make you physically bigger.
(course a body 6 person isn't necessarily big)

I'd definitely say cyberlimb body wouldn't count, not like it comes up often.

Yeah, sabs, I'm fine dialing all the way back to unaugmented Body. There aren't that many ways (besides Increase Body) to raise 'real' Body, anyway (as opposed to +Body for Damage Resistance Only).

And the genetic body increase, only increases max, so I think it should count.

Man might be an animal but man is not a critter.

In this case..... Indeed he does...
And even if he did not, he has allowed customized spell research to allow the ability to take a Metahuman Form... So it is really a moot point at our table...

And, again, in another thread about the same fraking thing, I have to say that Shapechange references critters, but (Critter) Form references animals. And the description of dragons and the Metahuman Form power states that it is possible to take the form of a metahuman with magic. Hence my "homebrewed" spell (Metahuman) Form, which does not allow the attribute boost of Shapechange/(Critter) Form but does allow metahuman forms to be taken, just as the rules hint is possible.

And who says that modern taxonomy is the correct way to classify creatures? The "scientific" community's majority, which has been historically proven to be wrong in the past. In this case magic just shows them another way they're wrong.

Science may even have the taxonomy right, but Magic simply doesn't care.

Why can't you turn into a non-awakened Naga? The answer is: because the magic doesn't let you.

Why can you have a Dog mentor spirit, but not a Dwarf mentor spirit? Because magic.

Hell, maybe the reason Shapechange / Critter Form work at all are because of the efforts of specific animal spirits, and if you can sufficiently piss off the Great Cat Father, you'll screw over every meta-human mage who wants to turn into a feline.

First off - taxonomy is not a very accurate system of defining creatures. Example: Dog and wolf have puppies. What classification are they? How about the colt of a zebra and a horse? Or a dolphin and a killer whale? Or a tiger and a lion? The linnaeus classification does not do well. Just look at how frequently a simple tiger got changed around.

Besides, a non-awakened Naga would simply be an anaconda, which would share the same physical attributes of a naga, sans some of the Powers.

Just for the record, anacondas do not have "large, blunt heads, expressive faces, and thick multicolored armored scales that help them to retain heat." Nor do "they have highly developed vocal cords and altered tongues that allow them to effectively speak metahuman languages".

Not that any of this, once again, has the slightest relevance to magic in general and this spell in particular.

True, but those are the abilities and description of what the Awakened anaconda does. Change the thematics, make them not be able to speak, and you have an anaconda.