Well... per the RAW (Already Quoted)... Glass and Mirrors ARE opaque, and block line of sight on the astral...
So, No Ambiguity on that count anyways...

Actually, mirrors reflect astral sight, how else would Mage Sight Goggles work?

Mage Sight Goggles do not work in Astral Space... they are Physical Augmentation to Normal Sight, and work via a Fiber-OPTIC cable, there are NO Mirrors in a pair of Mage Sight Goggles...

Also, On the Physical, Mirrors alter your Line of Sight, allowing you to do things like look around a corner and cast spells...

But Not indirect spells, they explode when they hit the mirror.

That's the thing, Tymeaus. Glass is supposed to be opaque, but that bit you quoted specifically differentiates between transparent and opaque objects, and says 'hinders visibility'. It's very vague, and annoying.

Fiber optic cable uses the same physics as mirrors do. If you can cast spells through mage sight goggles you can cast spells through mirrors.

That's true. It's also true that Astral Perception doesn't work with either, so you're both right.

You are confusing casting a spell using regular sight and casting a spell while shifting your vision to Astral Perception. You can cast a spell without using Astral Perception to see your target... Like casting stun bolt on the streetsam that is about to cut you in half... That is how Mage Sight goggles work. They remain solely in the physical realm and do not cross into Astral.

Mirrors don't reflect astral sight.

They reflect normal sight, and can be used to target spells physically, but not on the astral.



-k

Well Said... SO much better than my lame attempt...

can you cast indirect spells through magegoggles? or would the spell explode in your face?

the description of indirect spells is that it travels down the mystical link formed by your vision and it is not reflected by mirrors/windows but instead would explode on them.

You may Cast ANY SPELLS through Mage Sight Goggles per the rules (It is not ambiguous at all, actually), as long as you are physically poresent and are not in the Astral... Same with a FiberOptic Security Setup (Cannot remember the name of that thing off the top of my head)...

You can cast any spell sure. But indirect spells manifest physically and leave your body and fly to the target. If you are in a closed security office looking at the target through fiber optic cables the fireball wont get very far. Mage sight goggles should work fine but you'd have to put your hand or something around the corner kind of like a smartgun shooting around a corner.

The rules do not agree with you though... they make no difference between it originating at your point (for actual casting with natural senses) or from the end point of the Mage Sight Goggles or Fiber Optic Security System... in the case of the system, it manifests from that end point (much like putting your hand around the corner for Smartlink, using your analogy), not your own eyes (or whatever)

Regardless of which is 'true', it's obviously a point that has to be accepted so that the game world is functional as expected: Indirect spells originate at the 'sight end'.

You *could* dramatically change that element by ruling that no Indirect spells work with Mage Sight, but that's a deliberate change.

Indeed...

The fluff in previous editions describes fireballs erupting from the very walls of a mage-sight-protected facility.

Presumably if you examine the walls in question, you'd see the end terminals of the cables.



-k

Presumably... of course, it is at a -6 or more to the Perception roll...

In previous editions fireballs were effectively direct spells not indirect. Technically they were combat spells and indirect spells were manipulation spells. I don't really understand why they took out the direct style spell with elemental effects but they did.

And since, PG 204 SR4a indirect combat spells says this, "Indirect Combat spells generate a spell construct at the point of origin (the caster) which travels
down the mystic link to the chosen target (see Choose a Target, p. 183)," I think it is a bit odd to claim the end of the fiber optic cable is the origin point of the spell.

Yet that is how the rules are used... Fiber optic cables extend the Point of Origin, as the Fiber Optic cable is part of the caster for all intents and purposes...

and yet they specifically say that mirrors/windows do not reflect the spell, but instead detonate it.

Which makes it even weirder.

I have yet to read where a Fiber optic cable, in game, is a bunch of mirrors... can you point that out to me?

It is effectively 'windows and mirrors', though. The point is pretty obvious.

It's a mistake (as always) to attempt to use logic with Shadowrun, especially for magic. Either you allow it to work (as most people expect) or you don't (which will affect everyone who uses Indirect spells; i.e., no one). Choose, it's all arbitrary.

Seeing as how The book says you can use Mage Sight Goggles and Fiber Optic Security Systems to cast any spell, I think it is pretty cut and dried as far as I am concerned... I do not care what Real Life is in this regard (as you said above), because it so obviously works... Why stress over it at that point?

Where does it claim that? All fiber optics say is it gives line of sight. It does not necessarily give line of effect though. I have line of sight to a person behind a window, I do not have line of effect.

All fiber optic systems in Arsenal Pg 66 say is this, "A character plugged into a mage sight system has line of sight
on whatever area is on the other end of the fiber optic cable she’s
accessing at the moment. Since mage sight fiber optic cables can
extend up to 2,500 meters, a mage sight network can greatly extend
the range of a character’s line of sight. A security magician can
cast spells at intruders and provide spell defense for security forces
within reach of the network without fear of reprisal, because magicians
on the other end of the fiber optic cable cannot see her."

There may be a rule I am missing, but I have not found one that says fiber optic changes the point of orgin on spells.

May have something to do with the fact that fiber optic cable:
1) Is glass or glass-like solid (typically plexiglas, a kind of plastic)
2) Uses the same physics (refraction and reflection) to transmit light

So unless somehow this material is magically different than an ordinary mirror or window....

(What about sheets of plastic? Saran wrap? Mirrorshades? Can you cast through those?)

Don't start, Draco18s. Logic will only lead to frustration and sorrow.

Thing is that combat spells have over the editions been described as something that attacks from the inside. But elemental effects fly in the face of that description.

In SR2, fireball was a powerball with a added special rule for igniting flammable materials. Grimoire introduced the first concept of elemental effects.

SR3 moved all elemental spells to manipulation (as well as removing grounding, good riddance. having a spirit or foci act as a conduit between the astral and the physical for elemental effects just begged for abuse).

SR4 introduced the indirect subgroup, as SR3 left the combat spells list somewhat stripped for content.

I think SR4 has at least that point straight: they're clearly 'elemental combat spells'.

So, once again, the question is really just this: does your GM/group want indirect spells to work with Mage Sight, yes or no? Pick one, and the 'physics' can deal with it. It *does* make sense for indirect effects to emanate from (just beyond) the caster's body, but making sense is only ever a by-product at best.

I am not sure why making death rays attack from the inside is fine, but fire makes no sense. I can see an argument that the elemental effects only effect things actually seen and targeted and don't hit the entire area, like not hitting the air in between or something. But targets bursting into flames because you attack from the inside with fire instead of death rays seems fine to me.

You missed my point... The rules say you can use them, so I ignore real world manufacture and physics...
It is as Simple as that...

And Shinobi: If the Line of effect does not originate from the point of perception, then the Mage Sight Goggles (or FO Network) would never work (10-30 Meters (up to 2500 meters) Range from your origin point)... therefore, as I said above, your point must change based on the end-point of the Mage Sight Goggles (Or Network, as it were). It works because the rules say that it does, which is generally okay with me...

They work fine at 30 meters for direct combat spells, mental manipulations etc. Nothing ever says they work for indirect spells at all ranges of extension. If it does, please point it out. All I have seen says is you can cast spells through it, it does not specify. Indirect spells have there own special rules and those would apply in how they are used with fiber optics etc.

Okay, I think the intent of the rule is this:

If you can see through something using simple optical principles and you are touching that thing then you can cast through it as though you were at the end-point, so you can cast right through an adjacent window (or through mage sight fiber optic goggles).

If you can see through something but you are not touching that thing then your Indirect spells explode when they hit that thing, like blowing through a distant window.

Would anything blow up if I made this the rule interpretation in my game?

It says in the book that the Goggles and Network work with Spells, and since it DOES NOT EXCLUDE Indirect Spells, it must be assumed that it works with them as well...

The Intent is pretty obvious to me, and everyone at our Table (AS Nifft pointed out above)...
That is how we have interpreted it, and that is how it is played at our table.

And until there is an Errata that changes that (Not a FAQ), it is how we will continue to interpret it.

Ah so in other words the rules don't say it and you decided to give it even though indirect spells because that is what you think is implied. Indirect spells explicitly give there own rules on how they work that would stop it from working with mage sight goggles, is what I see being implied. Do you allow people to whip people with the cable to deliver touch spells I mean the point of origin is at the end.

No, what I said was that the Equipment explicitely allows casting any spell with no limits on the type of spell (It is not limited in any way, shape or form). Ergo, it works for any spell...

If that is a broken application of the equipment, well, so be it. It has yet to be addressed in any other fashion other than on these boards. In play, at several tables, I have seen it interpreted in the same manner as I do, so it is not me "Implying" into existence. Obviously others believe as I do.

IF it is broken, then it should be Erratad. I do not think that it is broken... AS has already been discussed, there is fluff describing the Elemental Effects originating from the Fiber Optic Security Network (Mentioned by KarmaInferno I believe). THAT is more than enough for me. I am sorry that you disagree, but I am not going to let that deter me from using that equipment as it is intended (at least in my opinion)...

But Yerameyahu is correct... You must choose what works for you... I know my choice...

Yes, but the rules for indirect spells have a built in exception. The rules just say spells, they don't say every spell with range can be cast through a fiber optic cable including indirect spells. Unless the rules for the fiber optic cable specifically mentions it overriding the indirect spells rules of operation I do not see it working. Saying spells in general has no meaning in this context because the normal rule for spells is just line of sight, with indirect spells having an exception to the normal line of sight rules. It works fine for normal spells because even though the spell manifests at the mage its travel path is not limited in any way.

And while the fluff had fireballs going through fiber optic cables that was in previous editions, the fluff back then also had grounding which was represented in the rules. Sometimes rules will change and will out date fluff with it.

I don't see it as broken since, well frankly indirect spells are weak in comparison to direct spells. But I do not think it is how the rules are written.

I think Shinobi nailed it.

Mage sight goggles DO NOT specifically say they allow all spells to be cast through them, they say that LOS can be achieved through them. If it allowed one to extend the "point of origin" (normally the caster) then touch spells would be viable through mage sight goggles. Instead it extends the LOS.

And on Indirect and LOS, it clearly states that the indirect spell creates a real world construct at the point of origin and travels through the mystic link to the target, IE, the path the LOS takes. If it makes sense that the indirect spell could be transmitted by a fiber-optic cable, like a light spell, then in that case I can see it working, but if the indirect spell is something else such as fire or lightning then it should travel that mystic link and act on any and all objects in that mystic link like it normally would, including the fiber optic cable itself.

It is optional so the examples are crazy. I use them in my game to encourage folks to use indirect cools spells like firebolt. to melt bad guys because the drain is standard. And it turns gangers into running roman candles.

Except it actually doesn't do that, its still a better idea to just overcast the direct spells at max force and just not use any net hits for damage, or alternatively overcast a 2-3 lower force spells for even more damage with same drain and once again not use the nethits for damage.

Oh and the examples are crazy becouse it wasn't an optional rule before the shitstorm we raised about it.