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Nifft
QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
IIRC It's only a non optional rule in the first version of the PDF, the updated version as well as the printed version have it as optional.
Unless my memory is completdly failing me, in which case fell free to ingnore this post.

You are exactly correct.

For some reason I had an earlier version of the PDF, which did NOT match the printed book, but the newest one bought off the Catalyst store does match the printed book.

If you bought your PDF, they will give you a free update, or so I have heard.

Cheers, -- N
Yerameyahu
You can definitely still aim grenades at locations.
sabs
Grenades are not indirect fire spells?
Yerameyahu
*shrug*
QUOTE
Reminds me how they "fixed" grenades by requiring a target, as throwing at a spot in space made using grenades "to easy".

So, I thought it was weird that you have to have LOS on all Area targets when I first read it, too. Are we now saying that you don't, or just that you shouldn't? smile.gif Or, just for Indirect?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 03:26 PM) *
You can definitely still aim grenades at locations.


Not if anyone is likely to be injured by it, no. Because if there is, its an opposed roll. indifferent.gif

(Again reminds me to show up to a missions game with a demoman who hates furniture)
Yerameyahu
Ridiculous. Grenades have a blast radius. It's not your fault if someone chooses to stand in it. If you want to track a moving target, sure, that's an attack roll.
Mäx
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 28 2010, 09:02 PM) *
technically you can't blind fire indirect damage spells.

You have to have a link to the target. Or if it's Area effect, you have to be able to establish a link to the center of the area effect.

Well luckily for most of my mages thermal smoke is only a -2 dice to their casting pool, that aint gonna save your ass if one of them decides to fireball you.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 04:04 PM) *
Ridiculous. Grenades have a blast radius. It's not your fault if someone chooses to stand in it. If you want to track a moving target, sure, that's an attack roll.


That's my opinion exactly (although I am also in favor of allowing ALL effected targets a dodge roll to move away from the center) but its not RAW.
sabs
Yeah the smoke modifier is weird. It's only -2.. but if you've ever seen a smoke grenade go off, you can't see /shit/ for the first few seconds. It's just a big cloud of greyish white.

Smoke Grenades should provide -6 for round 1 and decrease by 1 per round.
And then people are still going to argue, it's only -6 I can still link.

Yerameyahu
Draco18s, sure it is: "If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead."
You can shoot bullets at locations, too; they just don't explode usefully. smile.gif

Smoke is -0 to a mage casting spells, because they'll just use their super-Astral-mega-Perception-vision. smile.gif
TheScrivener
My understanding on grenades is that since everyone is moving around during combat, your target gets their defense roll to see if they get out of the blast radius, and your attack roll is trying to keep them inside that radius. Doesn't really work if you're using minis and exact positions, but for a fluid system it make sense, to a point.
Summerstorm
So.. easy solution: Shoot the wall behind the dude you would like to kill. Ok, it is a blind attack (since you can't see it... a dude is tanding there), but it won't dodge *g*.

Seriously though: If you target an area EVERYBODY gets to roll dodge if he can be hit. Otherwise it would be just weird... and wrong.

EDIT: this is a response to Yerameyahu's post.
Yerameyahu
In an open area (field, street), yes. In a room? No. You can just say, 'I target the middle of the room'. Or in a hallway, etc. You definitely don't roll dodge to avoid blast effects.

You *may* try to move away before the grenade explodes, if (for unimaginable reasons) it's not airburst or impact-triggered (standard option on all grenades, AKA 'what scatter?'). There's also an optional rule to try and throw the thing (see last sentence for why that can never work). biggrin.gif Hell, the book says they come standard with remote-detonation, so you could spend an action (Free, or Simple?) to detonate the thing in mid-air (no airburst required).

You can't choose your location as 'at his feet' without using an Opposed Test, and I'm not encouraging anyone to try that. smile.gif The point is it *increase* common sense, and common sense is that you don't have to *hit* someone with the grenade in most circumstances.
TheScrivener
Yeah, in close quarters where people don't have much opportunity to dodge, getting a grenade thrown into the room is kinda instant death (or just hurty-hurty if you're a troll). Sometimes GM fiat and common sense have to beat the conflict-happy systems. If you don't want your players to die, don't let them get in this situation! It reminds me of the "inescapable death" examples from the AD&D DMG... adamantium room filling with acid, shaft with a falling pillar the same size as the shaft, etc.
Yerameyahu
I mean, they can dodge all they want, but if they're still inside the blast… smile.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 10:34 PM) *
Draco18s, sure it is: "If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead."

i could have sworn they removed that in an errata, but i guess i was wrong.

still, there is this from the faq:
QUOTE
Isn't tossing a grenade on the ground by someone's feet (a Success Test) easier than trying to hit them directly with a grenade (an Opposed Test)? Does everyone caught in the blast get a chance to dodge/react?

Yes. The reason it's easier to aim for a location is because it doesn't move. If the intent is to catch a mobile target in the blast radius, then it should be an Opposed Test, whether the grenade is actually thrown at the target or thrown a few meters away. Anyone in the blast radius has until the next IP to get out of the way.
sabs
First, I would give everyone a perception test tn # of attackers, to notice that the grenade was thrown.
If they notice that the grenade was thrown, then I'd give them a reaction+run test. Every hit is a meter of their movement rate they can use to get out of the way of the blast radius. But they have to physically move.

Tacnets, attention-co-processors, would all help in these cases.

but I wouldn't really let them 'dodge' the shrapnel.

Summerstorm
Ah, there is always a table to hide behind *g*. We are in an old hollywood-action flick, not in the real world here... You can also outrun explosions.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 10:39 PM) *
if (for unimaginable reasons) it's not airburst or impact-triggered (standard option on all grenades, AKA 'what scatter?').

When did impact trigger become standard on hand thrown grenades?
Yerameyahu
Oh, I agree: even against grenades, people have options. Realistic and dramatic ones. It's just that you can fully avoid a grenade by head-faking. smile.gif You can dive for cover… and pray.

hobgoblin:
QUOTE
Grenades are small, self-contained explosive packages. They may come with a built-in timer to detonate after a pre-set amount of time (usually 5 seconds), a motion-sensor set to detonate on impact, or a wireless link set to detonate upon remote command.
This is the core book, so that can't mean 'you can buy one', because those things are in Arsenal.
hobgoblin
gah, things hide in the strangest of places. I take it that is from the grenade description in the gear section, something that is not mentioned again in any other section except when related to launcher delivered mini-grenades.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, and (as I mentioned earlier, and others have mentioned many other places), it practically-speaking contradicts things like airburst, scatter, etc. :/

I like to err on the side of *more* reasonable technology in the future, so I wouldn't disallow any of these. A real airburst link lets you fire-and-forget (on a very fast-moving projectile), but I'd let someone perform a 'manual airburst' on a thrown grenade by using an action (either Free 'change mode', or Simple 'Issue Command'; I'm inclined to use the Free, though.). I'd let someone program their grenades for impact detonation, etc. Denying it feels like gimping the future. smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 28 2010, 12:11 PM) *
It's not a sure thing, though.





Well isn't it odd that in one case they specified and in another case they did not?


FAQ answer.

How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?

A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately.



Specialization is part of the skill, so even when they specify skill+magic in multicasting it is halved. Foci are dice pool modifiers so spell casting and power foci are bad assed for this, mentor spirits sound more like modifiers, but are up in the air for the GM to decide. The rules are absurdly vague on this so this isn't one of those FAQ changing the rules situations. If the rules actually specified what made up your skills on the skill side, and actually said what was a pool modifier it would be one thing. They don't it is silent on the issue, so the FAQ clarified.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 02:34 PM) *
Draco18s, sure it is: "If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead."
You can shoot bullets at locations, too; they just don't explode usefully. smile.gif

Smoke is -0 to a mage casting spells, because they'll just use their super-Astral-mega-Perception-vision. smile.gif


Smoke has an Astral Presence there Yerameyahu... as there are particulates that make up the smoke, which have a shadow... wobble.gif
Yerameyahu
Does it? Why's there FAB fog, then? Anyway, remember that it's not just vision (or vision at all); smoke doesn't affect hearing, for example, so it wouldn't necessarily do anything to Astral Sense.

Anyway, I'm the first one to support making Astral Perception *less* of a replace-all-vision-modes power. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 09:01 PM) *
Does it? Why's there FAB fog, then?


FAB eats magic, Smoke does not...
But the fact remains that Smoke affects your Astral Perception...
While FAB would NOT affect your normal perception as it is an astral presence, not a physical one... smoke affects both, as the physical particulates would have an astral presence...
Yerameyahu
I dunno. Evidence?

Even FAB (II) only gives a -2 astral visibility mod (and nothing else). Why would simple smoke be better?

I'm not saying that Astral Sense always means '-0 in any circumstances', because of course there are *astral* visibility mods possible (theoretically, these apply multicasting).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 09:07 PM) *
I dunno. Evidence?


The fact that (In the Book) anything with a physical representation casts a shadow on the Astral... what more do you really need?

Page 114 of Street Magic, Astral Visibility Section...

QUOTE
Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows. Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura.


That should be sufficient I would think...
Yerameyahu
I understood your theory, but restating it doesn't do anything. smile.gif If anything, that implies that LOS is broken entirely, not subject to a numeric modifier.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 09:20 PM) *
I understood your theory, but restating it doesn't do anything. smile.gif If anything, that implies that LOS is broken entirely, not subject to a numeric modifier.


Though in reality you and I both know that Heavy Smoke breaks LOS completely, and for a lot longer than just a few seconds, that is not how it works in the game... Since it only provides a -4/-2 Physically, that is the penalty on the Astral as well, at least by my reading of it anyways... you suffer the same penalties as you would on the physical... Don't get me started on Glass on the Astral, that is just wierd... but whatever...

Though I DO understand the Idea you presented...
Yerameyahu
My point was that that paragraph is about Cover. I just meant that I've never heard a direct description of smoke/Astral together. smile.gif
Bradd
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 28 2010, 04:22 PM) *
Specialization is part of the skill, so even when they specify skill+magic in multicasting it is halved. Foci are dice pool modifiers so spell casting and power foci are bad assed for this ....


While the FAQ and most of the rules describe specializations as "dice added to tests" rather than "dice pool modifiers," the definition on SR4A p. 68 actually does call them dice pool modifiers.

Weapon foci grant dice pool modifiers, but spell and spirit foci add dice to tests.

Frankly, I wish they would just explicitly list which modifiers apply before and after tests, because they just aren't that good about using the terminology consistently. This is a problem in other parts of the rules too, like the inconsistent usage of threshold vs net hits in spellcasting compared to the rest of the rules.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 10:30 PM) *
My point was that that paragraph is about Cover. I just meant that I've never heard a direct description of smoke/Astral together. smile.gif


EVERYTHING on the physical has an astral shadow. It's why you can't target spells through walls. indifferent.gif

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Oct 28 2010, 03:54 PM) *
i could have sworn they removed that in an errata, but i guess i was wrong.


They did, that's my point entirely. Which is why I want to show up to a missions game with a sever dislike of furniture. Both sides (success test and "only one target dodges") are bad.

Although I do have a friend who built a throwing adept. He'd bean people with live grenades (it'd hit, deal damage as a thrown object, then explode).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 09:30 PM) *
My point was that that paragraph is about Cover. I just meant that I've never heard a direct description of smoke/Astral together. smile.gif


Sure... You have to use some Common Sense, which is often absent, to make it work. I can also agree that you could just adjudicate the smoke as equivalent to the Windowe Pane... would be a bit more annoying for the Mages, but so what...

Personally, I like the Opaque option, but have never actually used it in game due to the quote of Physical Cover working the same in Astral. While Smoke is not "Technically" cover (it is Concealment), we have always just applied the modifiers as penalties for "Normal" Vision (-4 or -2 depending on the quality of the smoke (Heavy or Light)) to Astral Perception/Spellcasting...

Either way works for me, as long as it is consistent.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 28 2010, 11:37 PM) *
I do have a friend who built a throwing adept. He'd bean people with live grenades (it'd hit, deal damage as a thrown object, then explode).

Did he add Gecko Grip?

smile.gif



-k
Draco18s
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 28 2010, 10:50 PM) *
Did he add Gecko Grip?


I don't recall.
Redcrow
**Begin Disclaimer: The following is IMO only and may or may not conform to RAW/RAI :End Disclaimer**

The way I have always envisioned Astral Space is as a relatively colorless reflection of the SR world where only living things possess any sort of coloration. Buildings and other man-made objects appear in varying shades of gray and heavily refined mechanical items appearing as very dark gray or even black. The auras of living things appear as somewhat opaque white with swirls of varying colors that seem to be lazily flowing around and any cyberware appearing as black (unmoving) splotches. The colors and patterns are what a Mage "Assenses" in order to learn information about the form. If the opaque part is dull (i.e. more gray than white) it might mean the person has health issues. The colors and speed of flow could be used to determine a persons state of mind with fast flowing intense colors indicating passion or excitement and dull colors indicating indifference or boredom.

I treat Astral Perception exactly like a type of vision (and hearing, smell, etc.) rather than some inexplicable "psychic sense" because honestly it seems unreasonable to me that you should suffer vision penalties for anything while using Astral Perception unless it has a definitively visual aspect to it. The other aspects of Astral Perception (e.g. hearing, smell, etc.) have always been rather poorly defined but could be just as flavorful and useful as the visual aspect. For instance, in my own a game a character with cyberware has a distinct Astral Smell with more cyber creating a stronger odor. In an environment with lots of heavily refined materials or a crowd of people, all with cyberware, the smell might not be discernable from any other, but in a more natural environment or one with much less refined materials the smell would be unique and easily discovered. While in the regular world there wouldn't be any sort of smell at all. Drones also have a very distinguishable odor and can sometimes be detected by Astral Perception by way of smell even when otherwise hidden from view. They also have an audible Astral component which can be a bit unnerving, like fingernails on a chalkboard.

IMO, Astral Space is one of Shadowruns greatest features, but also one of its least well thought out aspects. YMMV.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Bradd @ Oct 28 2010, 11:36 PM) *
While the FAQ and most of the rules describe specializations as "dice added to tests" rather than "dice pool modifiers," the definition on SR4A p. 68 actually does call them dice pool modifiers.

Weapon foci grant dice pool modifiers, but spell and spirit foci add dice to tests.

Frankly, I wish they would just explicitly list which modifiers apply before and after tests, because they just aren't that good about using the terminology consistently. This is a problem in other parts of the rules too, like the inconsistent usage of threshold vs net hits in spellcasting compared to the rest of the rules.



You are right. I do not remember them being explicitly described as modifiers in 4, did 4A change this. And yes I wish they had just come up with a list, or do what I do and say the entire end result is the pool and you split that. I don't care how you got your pool to 14 dice, it will be treated like 14 dice not 6 dice with 8 dice of bonuses. It is quicker easier, and more balanced.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Redcrow @ Oct 29 2010, 12:45 AM) *
**Begin Disclaimer: The following is IMO only and may or may not conform to RAW/RAI :End Disclaimer**

The way I have always envisioned Astral Space is as a relatively colorless reflection of the SR world where only living things possess any sort of coloration. Buildings and other man-made objects appear in varying shades of gray and heavily refined mechanical items appearing as very dark gray or even black. The auras of living things appear as somewhat opaque white with swirls of varying colors that seem to be lazily flowing around and any cyberware appearing as black (unmoving) splotches. The colors and patterns are what a Mage "Assenses" in order to learn information about the form. If the opaque part is dull (i.e. more gray than white) it might mean the person has health issues. The colors and speed of flow could be used to determine a persons state of mind with fast flowing intense colors indicating passion or excitement and dull colors indicating indifference or boredom.

I treat Astral Perception exactly like a type of vision (and hearing, smell, etc.) rather than some inexplicable "psychic sense" because honestly it seems unreasonable to me that you should suffer vision penalties for anything while using Astral Perception unless it has a definitively visual aspect to it. The other aspects of Astral Perception (e.g. hearing, smell, etc.) have always been rather poorly defined but could be just as flavorful and useful as the visual aspect. For instance, in my own a game a character with cyberware has a distinct Astral Smell with more cyber creating a stronger odor. In an environment with lots of heavily refined materials or a crowd of people, all with cyberware, the smell might not be discernable from any other, but in a more natural environment or one with much less refined materials the smell would be unique and easily discovered. While in the regular world there wouldn't be any sort of smell at all. Drones also have a very distinguishable odor and can sometimes be detected by Astral Perception by way of smell even when otherwise hidden from view. They also have an audible Astral component which can be a bit unnerving, like fingernails on a chalkboard.

IMO, Astral Space is one of Shadowruns greatest features, but also one of its least well thought out aspects. YMMV.



That is how I treat it as well.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
I treat Astral Perception exactly like a type of vision (and hearing, smell, etc.) rather than some inexplicable "psychic sense" because honestly it seems unreasonable to me that you should suffer vision penalties for anything while using Astral Perception unless it has a definitively visual aspect to it.
This is kind of my point: you don't. The 'Astral Visibility' modifiers (in Street Magic) are just called that for analogy, and they function equally if you call them interfering sound, or smell, or psychic 'noise'.
Redcrow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 12:16 AM) *
This is kind of my point: you don't. The 'Astral Visibility' modifiers (in Street Magic) are just called that for analogy, and they function equally if you call them interfering sound, or smell, or psychic 'noise'.


I've heard all the apologetics and attempts and rationalizing Astral Perception as written plenty over the years (since the early 2e days at least) and I have yet to see a single explanation which fixes all the inherent problems so elegantly and succinctly as simply treating Astral Perception as vision (and hearing, etc.). YMMV.
Yerameyahu
The elegant solution is to treat it as 5 (or more?) senses? I have no horse in this race, and I don't even like mages, so it's not personal. I just don't see how that fixes any problems (because we're already treating de facto as vision, etc.). The actual problems are ambiguities on how to deal with Astral Perception, such as the one above ('does smoke do anything, and what?').

So. You said your problem was that it's illogical to suffer vision penalties if it's not vision. I explained that you don't, so the logic vanishes. All of the 'Visibility' mods are 100% swappable to any other sensory analogy, or to a plain numerical abstraction (bleh).
hobgoblin
One thing to remember is that on the astral, even bind people can "see"...
Yerameyahu
I kinda wish they'd say 'your astral sense originates at your brain', or something to that effect. I've seen a couple threads about 'peeking' a finger out from cover in order to cast spells with Astral Perception, and it's a silly little unaddressed point. smile.gif

I know we're way off topic. :/ Oh well. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
Heh, reminds me how someone use the "aura visible beyond heavy armor" as a argument for spotting auras of people hiding around corners...
Redcrow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 12:36 AM) *
The elegant solution is to treat it as 5 (or more?) senses? I have no horse in this race, and I don't even like mages, so it's not personal. I just don't see how that fixes any problems (because we're already treating de facto as vision, etc.). The actual problems are ambiguities on how to deal with Astral Perception, such as the one above ('does smoke do anything, and what?').

So. You said your problem was that it's illogical to suffer vision penalties if it's not vision. I explained that you don't, so the logic vanishes. All of the 'Visibility' mods are 100% swappable to any other sensory analogy, or to a plain numerical abstraction (bleh).


**Begin Disclaimer: The following is IMO only and may or may not conform to RAW/RAI :End Disclaimer**

Here is a quote from SR4A pg. 191... "Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character's physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and aura within. Likewise, deaf magicians can "hear" in astral space." The last sentence implies that Astral Perception is more than merely a single "sense", so the idea of it being multi-sense comes straight from the RAW and has been this way since at least Shadowrun 2e.

Your "explanation" merely adds more nonsense to an already nonsensical aspect of the game. It adds to the "Astral Perception is not vision" while ignoring every place in which it is described as just that. What is truly illogical to me is that according to the RAW, Astral Perception is apparently vision sometimes and not vision in others. Its nonsensical to me to claim Astral Perception is not vision and then describe it at every step in a decidedly visual way.

My solution is to eliminate all the nonsense by saying Astral Perception IS a type of vision (and hearing, etc.) and treat it just like any other type of vision (thermographic, low-light, etc.). If you don't like this elegant solution, then by all means use whatever works for you.
Yerameyahu
I'm only asking what problems you think you're solving. There's nothing inherently problematic about a 'nonsense' sense; it's magic. Yes, the book usually analogizes it as vision, because we don't have magic. *shrug* I didn't offer an explanation, so I don't know what you're referring to.
shon
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 29 2010, 07:04 AM) *
[...], or do what I do and say the entire end result is the pool and you split that. I don't care how you got your pool to 14 dice, it will be treated like 14 dice not 6 dice with 8 dice of bonuses. It is quicker easier, and more balanced.


I like your approach!
Redcrow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 12:33 PM) *
*shrug* I didn't offer an explanation, so I don't know what you're referring to.


Really? you didn't offer an "explanation" in your earlier post?

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 12:33 PM) *
So. You said your problem was that it's illogical to suffer vision penalties if it's not vision. I explained that you don't, so the logic vanishes. All of the 'Visibility' mods are 100% swappable to any other sensory analogy, or to a plain numerical abstraction (bleh).


Emphasis mine.
Yerameyahu
smile.gif I didn't offer an explanation of Astral Perception. I explained the flaw in your argument, i.e. 'you don't suffer vision penalties'.

Anyway. smile.gif I'd be fine if they came out tomorrow and said, 'nevermind, Astral Perception manifests in your brain as the five senses, so it's just like VR'. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, just as there's nothing inherently wrong with it being a 'nonsense' psychic sense. The actual problems we have with Astral Perception are practical matters: 'does smoke work?' 'how far does your aura extend through clothes/armor/vehicles/objects?' 'is glass and mirrors opaque?' etc.
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