I didn't miss it, I just think that's an unsound tactical approach. If you wait for the other guy to start a fight on his terms, you're already at a disadvantage. If you know that you're going to have to fight somebody, pick the fight yourself, on your own terms.

Well, that riposte build would certainly allow the girl to not start the fight and still have a decent chance at winning...

If your running against a troll tank (or any tank for that matter) Nerve Strike (Adept power) is going to be hands down the best way to take them out. It completely bypasses the soak roll. They either dodge it, or get their agility/reaction reduced by the net hits. Once either of the attributes hit 0, the target is paralyzed. At that point, you can do whatever you want with him.

Actually, Karoline has it right. It's 30+ Soak Dice, about 2/3rds from armor. Also, I did say that he has no ranged ability to speak of (Low Agility and only two ranks in Heavy Weapons, and he doesn't own any heavy weapons). You're right about the IPs though, he's got three, so I figure I'll need at least three, and high Initiative (or at least higher initiative than his) in order to deal with him.



I like this idea. Maybe it could be combined with the Riposte build Neraph posted? I think I'd like more than 13 dice to parry with in case he does get into melee range (or if a fight breaks out at spitting distance). Also, did somebody mention a kind of ammo which would force him to use his low willpower instead of body to soak? That would be very good for me, as his will is very low.



I'll check this out. Can it be done with guns?



Unfortunately, that's the tactical situation. I'm not out to get this guy, I just know that he might be a problem down the road. That said, I've been thinking about some of the ideas presented, and I think I've come up with a workable variation. See, he's the group's explosives expert, so I can't exactly pack his commlink full of semtex and blow it if he becomes a problem. But, I could probably install an autoinjector in his 'link, which would let me hit him with something nasty and should be able to do it without it being noticed. So what should I be injecting him with?

Slab
or if you're feeling really obnoxious, inject him with Kali-10. Preferably while he's in the middle of a gun fight.n And then run like hell When he falls unconcious, shoot him in the brain pan.

You could certainly grab a martial arts and take the two weapon style to let yourself go into full defense while still firing once he reaches melee range, that would give you another 4 points into your parry, bringing you higher than him by a hit on average. I wouldn't bother with riposte though, it is fairly useless. All it does is let you attack this round instead of next, and since he has already attacked you and there is no one else in combat, getting to attack this round is no real advantage over attacking next round, since you'll be attacking next either way.

And no, there is no mundane way (besides maybe something obscure like the pain inducer, don't remember exactly) to force a will roll instead of a body roll for damage resistance. Best you can do is throw stun damage at him instead of physical damage because his stun track will fill up much faster (A big problem with tank characters in general). SnS is your best bet. Someone else suggested DMSO cocktails, but that doesn't seem very viable if the whole reason this problem exists is a lack of cash in the first place as they tend to be expensive.


No, nerve strike is exclusively the realm of unarmed combat, so not particularly suited to this character.

An autoinjector is cyberware, you can't install cyberware in his commlink. Well, I suppose you could make an argument for doing so, but there is no guarantee that it would work out because he might not have it in the exact right spot when you activate it. Not to mention that commlinks are important to people, and it is going to be hard to separate him from it without him noticing.

One thing you could do is give your sister character a couple of drones at home (most likely place to get attacked) with some kind of weapons armed with SnS ammo. They don't have to be particularly accurate or anything, just forcing that -1 to his dodge roll for previous attacks can be useful.

The Screech sonic rifle from Arsenal. Granted it's 8.000 , availability 16 and an exotic weapon, but against that the tank will have to roll Willpower (Willpower+2 if he has Dampeners in his cyberears or earplugs/muffs/helmet) and no armor against damages of 7Stun+net hits (Base damage of 5S +2DV for setting it to narrow spread - you shoot a single target without über-dodging), which make it likely harder to soak than SnS (which are resisted with (Body + Impact/2) in the 25 dices range, more if he modified his armor with non-conductivity).

Also if you go for small, fast weaponry like dual-wielded pistols or SMGs and he is not a grenade user, try to drag the fight indoors.

Why ? Think about that : he stands 3 meter (10 feet) tall - possibly more if he is at the upper end of Body and Strength for the metatype - but a typical ceiling is roughly 2.4 meters (8 feet) and a normal door 1.9x0.9 metersx1 (6.5x3 feets) - it's a pretty tight fit so he won't be able to use his superior running speed, and he may suffer from a reduced Dodge pool, making him easier to shoot and to damage. Finally if his sword is a large specimen he may even have trouble swinging it properly.

You want to know the best way to drop this troll?

Suck it up, go mystic adept.
Grab some decent unarmed.
Grab Decrease Charisma.
Wait till Melee occurs.
Spend Edge or Multicast if necessary.

He won't roll more than 4 dice to resist.
Once he fails, he's incapacitated.

On the Autoinjector being cyberware - yeah, but my GM is willing to let me do it, as long as I make the hardware check. I also like the idea of throwing him into VR and just capping him, and I should be able to install a backdoor in his 'link easily enough.

So I think I'm set on how to kill this guy (SnS rounds or popping him into VR and capping him). Now all that's left is how to build a John Preston-esque Adept.

Instead of the Ruger S W get Yourself 2 Yamaha Sakura Fubuki with S&S Ammo, Flechette,AP and Explo, 1 Kind per Barrell

HokaHey
Medicineman

Unless you define a gunslinger as someone slinging pistols, go for two modded Ingram Smartguns and Automatics.

Ingram Smartgun X: 650¥
Gas Vent II-> Gas Vent III: 400¥
Personalized Grip: 100¥
Underbarrel Weight: 25¥
Improved Rangefinder: 1000¥

Being able to shoot two long burst fom one-handed weapons without penalty at up to 40 m: Priceless


@Medicineman: why Ex² and APDS? they do more more less the same thing.

explo not ExEx -Ammo
ExEx is whay to expensive
or Hollowpoint instead of Explo

And it was just a thought
A Pistol Gunslinger needs the YSF
A SMG Gunslinger the Ingram Smart X

with a cheap Trick Dance
Medicineman

What is the point of mixing ammo in the YSF?

Options without having to reload.

Wouldn't that require house-ruling from the GM, and an ammo skip system?

Why would it require house-ruling, the think has 4 "clips".

Probably depends on the GM, then.

The answer is staring you in the face all the time. PAY YOUR DEBT. Killing the troll may save your sister...NOW...what about tomorow or next week? YOU are the problem. If your a true brother you would let him kill you to cover the debt and let your sister live. (although no one is promising she will be left alone)

How much do you actualy owe? Maybe you can start working on THAT and get an extension for paying it back. If the tank is part of your group and sees you are working to paying the debt back then he may wait longer or never go after your sister.
Maybe next time you wont go arround creating In Debt characters without ever planning to pay them back. There should never be FREE BP when it comes to negative qualities. If the GM is worth his salt he should make you pay for every BP bonus you got out of your negative qualites and many times over.

My players loved Flaws/Neg Qualities until I made every one of them think otherwise. These days they are happy to either avoid them altogether or just pick 1 very very small one they know will be a nuisance but wont necessarily be a game breaking experience that results in a failed mission or dead runners.

The way i see them Positive Qualities benefit you all the time or depends on the situation. and rightly so, you paid for the luxury. Neg Quaities should be in the same boat. You still have to pay for he luxury of the extra BP.

so my advice is stop trying to find ways to min-max your sister just for 1 particular combat and pay your debt. Once the troll is dead how is she going to live her life with all that hyperspecialised skillset. And how do you explain her student lyfestyle yet hyperspecialised skills. Improvement comes from experience. is she spend most of her day studying where is he getting the time to practice and more so there is no substitute to the real thing. spending hours at the gun range or at the dojo is no substitude to getting acosted by a mugger of havng to shoot on the move while adrenalin is making a mince meat out of your steady pulse.

If you are hellbent on breaking the wall with your head then at least try and get few more of your teammates to do the same, just make them believe there is a chance they can succeed
Plant some matrix seeds of distrust they will end up receiving through their own contacts. Make them believe the street sam troll is secretly working against them and there is a hit on them he is tasked to complete. once you have the whole team watching out for this guy you can start voicing your concerns to them and get them to come on your side. once the as you put it "inevitable combat with my sister" comes you have all of you agsinst him. some of you MAY die but thats what the life of a shadowrunner is all about. If being in debt to the russian mafia was a cool thing everyone would be doing it.

It has to do with the fact that the firearm in question essentially has a separate "clip" for each of the four barrels.

It's based off the MetalStorm idea from real life. A bunch of bullets stacked in each barrel instead of in an external clip. They get fired in sequence, front to back.


-k

Something I never quite got about Metal Storm: it seems to me that the first rounds would be noticeably less accurate than the last rounds, given that they travel less of the overall barrel length. Sure, you get ridiculous rates of fire and very precise control, but how do you get around the changing barrel length?

Well the Thingy has 4 differrent Barrels and is Barrell fed
Just like Karmal Inferno posted

but how do you get around the changing barrel length?
By not integrating unnessesary Rules !
Sorry but we don't need "Hardwurst" in SR

HougH!
Medicineman

Metal storm is not for sniping

There is enough variation of muzzle velocity from bullet to bullet as we speak. even if you load them with the same grain of same powder you have multitude of variables that can impact your acuracy. length of barrel actually cancels out some of these factors.
The longer the barrel the greater muzzle velocity (to a point bound by internal balistics etc etc )so if you were to plot the balistics you will see if all things considered equal, and they are not, such as neck thickness, wall thickness, neck concentricity,neck tension, OAL or length to ogive consistency between the catridges, flash hole uniformity etc etc, the velocity variation will put the bullets in a storm like ballistic trajectory, hence the name. so the first bullet SHOULD hit the shortest distance and the last bullet the max distance and anything in between better feel lucky or be behind some hard cover

Working as intended i reckon

Metal Storm might be accused of having many qualities, but accuracy is not one of the generally listed ones.

Most articles tend to focus on the rate of fire.




-k

I have to say though, I think we've already far surpassed the point where a higher RoF is of any real use.

actually metal storm would be a very effective anti RPG/rocket addon to a tank or medium or even light armoured vehicles as long as you are NOT in an urban setting.
Shower an area with bullets and one of them is bound to hit the incoming rocket. just gotta make sure its pointing in a direction you wont get courmarshalled for

however they would be a great addon to cargo planes and ships i reckon too.

but you are right RoF is just a fancy name not really used to its fullest due to overheating.

Just look at the helicopter cannons and how quickly they destroy barrels if they are not carefull

I find it a li'l funny that this dependent apparently is intended to have the sort of stats that would let her double as a snazzy home security system. I guess it's not my game though, so whatever. Depending on the enemies she's made I guess she could still be a liability. I guess. Being able to down 30+ soak pool opponents without the benefit of a gauss weapon or high powered laser pretty much puts you well into prime runner territory though and any 300 point build attempting the job without spells would need to use an exotic weapon such as the Screech rifle. And pray.

People can be dependent for lots of reasons. In one game I was in a player had that good room mate positive quality from RC for their house but also made that room mate a dependent. It was explained that while they were useful (Technomancer) they had enough physical ailments that they were still a liability. This girl may be decent in a fight but that doesn't mean she can survive on her own.

To me the dissonance comes in when you factor in the difference between "decent in a fight" and "can punk a 30 soak Samurai." This NPC is apparently intended to do the latter. I've let people take the sensei and dependent qualities all in one package before, but it was an older gentlemen who wouldn't have a chance in hell in fending off an expert level giant martial artist.

That's of somewhat limited use with lasers coming into their own. They've already developed anti missile laser defense systems. Only thing I don't know is how energy storage requirements compare to bullet storage requirements for the two systems, as well as the cost for that energy and laser and targeting system compared to bullets and guns and targeting systems.

If she in turn has Body 1, Willpower 1, Charisma 1, Intuition 1 and Logic 1 she is very much dependant on someone else. She just happens to outspec this particular enemy. A character that has a Max 'can pun, a 30 soak Samurai' must have a lot of obvious Mins to equal that out

@Defending against rockets and such: if it's guided, isn't that what flares/chaffs are used for? There's chaff launchers for ground vehicles just as well. If it's against unguided rockets, well, that's what reactive armor was made for, right?

None of which she as written is going to be capable of effectively leveraging given 300 bps and a preference for pistols instead of missile launchers or spells. Like I said, best case scenario hits me as annoying him to death with a screech rifle.

.

*coughwe'reusing400bpnowcough*

Nah. Taking out the troll really isn't that difficult. With the build as I suggested it above, you're only tying up... 40BP for agi 5. 24 BP for pistols 6, 2BP for spec, 16BP for clubs 4, 2BP for spec, 10BP for ambidexterous and a martial arts, 3BP for the maneuver, and finally less than 1BP worth of equipment for guns and ammo. So using less than 100BP of the 400, and none of it is on stuff that won't be helpful for the character overall.

Unless she can use that extra hundred BPs to become a magician I'm still not seeing it changing how a fight turns out. Unless she uses it to become a tin can herself, anyway.

Since she wants to use 2 pistol-/MP-sized weapons in a situation where the enemy wants to get close to her....... has anyone ever tried to dual-wield those MP-sized 6P Flamethrowers? 1/2 Armor, and secondary damage due to flames. If he isn't reduced to a pile of ash within the 4 IPs that she has to empty both weapons simultaneously, she can just toss them and quickdraw some other weaponry. Plus the sheer panic that anyone will experience when trying to go melee against two flamethrowers... That's just suicide. But I have to admit, I never did the whole dmg calc for flamethrowers, they seem... a bit excessive.

I'm in the process of paying my debt, he's just demanding all of it ASAP (I tried to get an extension, believe me). I'm just playing my character - his baby sister was threatened by the big hulking street sam, so he's wracking his brain to figure out a way to deal with said street sam. I've pretty much got it too: hack his 'link (easy for me) and lock him in VR, then chunky salsa his head. I just need the sis to be able to hold her own to give my hacker time to do that, or to be able to deal with him on her own. Also, he'd gladly lay down his life to save his sister, however, such a thing is not guaranteed, and if he can do it without dying, even better.

I'm trying to Min/Max the sister for this kind of combat because the next character I play I'd like to combine this style of combat with two other things, namely being an Adept and being a Hacker (because that's what my character is supposed to be - he's a good gunman and a great hacker, but I'd like to try and go the not totally cybered out route next time) so she's a sort of practice character. Also, from an in-story perspective, she's the daughter of runners, and has been taught the skills she'd need to survive since she was young. She's a dependent because she's still young and naive and living with her brother (who provides for both of them, so she can focus on her studies).



This build looks good. I'm working on the prospective build for the sister, I'll probably have it posted by Tuesday. One request though: could you rework this build to include her being an Adept? I'd love to see what that looks like.

Oh, right forgot the adept part. I'll do a quick mock-up sheet for her. Actually, already have a partial one, forgot about it. Should have something up quick.

I see. Maybe get a Face to represent you next time and negotiate a part payment deal or buy you time to come up with the money. As for your sister try and get a safe house or another apartment off the books that the sam doesnt know about and hide her there while the heat is on. You can fake an email from your sister saying "ive gone to Denver/Hong Kong on vacation with my boyfriend. see you in a month". if the street sam tries to track her you can stay a step ahead by seeding the matrix with fake details. with enough time you should be able to gather enough cash to pay the debt..hopefully.

Of course, for the price of a safehouse, he could likely make a notable dent in his debt.

Anyway, here is what I whipped up.

Leaves 36BP to get contacts/equipment/more qualities/skills.

The trouble is, I don't have time to do this. I'm going to need to find the money to pay him off within the next couple of in-game days, or else violence is likely to ensue. Also, Karoline makes a valid point - spending money on a safehouse is kinda counterproductive when I need to pay up, and fast. Also, even after I've payed, I need to be able to keep this guy in check.



Thanks for this, this is pretty much what I'll be using, I think.

You're welcome. Enjoy.

Whiskey--The more you expand on the circumstances, the more I really think the best thing to do is to pro-actively kill the sam, before he makes his move. Then, the team's face will have time to negotiate with the Russians for a few weeks instead of a few days, and you can pay them back.

If the other player gets bent, that's his problem. It is unclear if the other player decided to call the debt due now and is yanking you around because he thinks he's the cock of the walk, or if the Vory actually called it due through GM decision. If the first, kill the player's next character and repeat the process over and over until he makes a team-player. If it's the GM, tell the player that it wasn't personal and leave the next character alone unless conflict rises.

YMMV, but that's how I'd approach it.

This. The most recent details just scream "preemptive killing" to me. You have ample in-character justification, so just do it. Get as much of the team on your side as you can, pick a moment when the giant is vulnerable, and blow the fucker's brains out. Then you can try again to renegotiate that extension.

Have you tried to discuss the issue with someone higher in the Vory's food chain ? If he is doing that without orders, it's an angle you could play - either they order him to stand down, or if something bad is done to him, well, it's personnal and not business... As a hacker you may also be able to persuade them (through real or manufactured evidences) that he is cheating them by pocketing extra money from his debt collection duties...

If you have a dwarf friend who happens to live in a dwarf-sized area, can he take her at home for a week ? She will be able to manage the low ceilings without too much trouble, but it will be hardfor him to swing a sword while crawling on four limbs.

In-Debt requires you to pay 10% off the inflated capital a month, as I recall. As long as that's been paid, the Sam should have no grounds to come after you. Dead men can't pay, after all.

Having one PC as another's debt collecter seems like a generally bad idea to me.

If it's the quality In Debt then, yes, but it could be some other credit arrangement.

Whiskey said he had In Debt back on page 1 (Post 20).

I just wasn't sure if he meant the quality or regular debt. Thanks for clearing this up.

Any PC doing the duties of the GM and creating inner party tension is bad-juju. Its bad enough these guys are runners and have to watch out for THEM. but now they got HIM to watch out too.
i dont know the circumstances but i put the blame on the GM. unless the character specifically and secretely asked to be tasked with this inner party mayham creation. in that case....i blame the GM too

Sure it may seem fine on paper but if my workmate wanted to kill my sister because I owe some russian boss some money i borrowed when i was down on my luck then workmate or not unless he squares himself off and unscrews himself im taking the sucker down one way or another. Family first.

I think the moment he mentioned "im gonna hurt your sister" he would have slid down on the 0-Trust and towards Enemy side of the scales.

To OP:
Is it possible to know why/how/when your Giant 'teammate' started collecting for the russian mob? If he had a choice and he chose to be the retard to bring unhappiness in the game then why waste your free time on a hobby that makes you unhappy. Just ice his character and be done with it.
A shadowrun team is like any job really (unless its a government job, then you cant get rid of the retards working with you), if someone isnt working out for the position, you replace him, if he cant be trusted, you replace him, if he treatens staff you call the police (or shoot him if in SR).

As a player i have sinned and as a GM I see my players doing the same. What i mean is they only see the horse-blinders-tunnel-vission-combat-only option and when you come up against a wall of dice waiting to soak you puny damage they back away, cry, kill off their characters and make new ones, stop coming to games, call you names and so on and so forth.

It may be a novel idea to some but TALKING things out helps. if the GM is at fault then force his hands by dice and skill rolls (sure he can fudge it but if he is a good GM he will give you the benefit of the doubt). Get a mediator Face that has the skills to pull off all the nice negotiation rolls. You will owe him bigtime if he manages to get you that extension but better than your sister dying. but thats what friends are for. even runners should have friends. you wont survive the shadows if you dont have a friend or two you can trust.

Karoline done an awesome job at the brute force colution and should be commended for that but that solution is a worst case scenario.
Like driviing a car and its running out of petrol you get about 7 warnings before you have to walk to the petrol station.
1. Full mark
2. 3/4 mark
3. half mark
4. 1/4 mark
5. light comes on(using up the reserve)
6. empty mark (some cars still have that extra little bit in the reserve as a retard-proof measure)
7. ALL lights flash and engie light pops up as the whole car shuts down.

if you wait for 7 (your sister kicking the sam's ass) you are doing it wrong.

as sugested. pre-emptive strike would do the trick. wait till he falls asleep and coup de grace his ass.

however from a metagame perspective i would talk to the GM and see what he thinks about you getting an extension vs you having to kill the sam.
Its very obvious there will be bloodshed and NPC or not ingame she is you sister and blood hate/vendetta is just as bad as having a rogue thieve all the gold from the players pockets JUST BECAUSE he can.
The GM obviously allowed this nonsence and it MAY have seemed a good thing at the time (running naked while drunk also seemed good at the time) but some things just shouldnt be allowed.
Sometime the GM has to metagame past some dicey events just to keep the paty morale and happiness high. Talk to him and get his feel of a solution OTHER than a bloodbath.
I cant tell what the out of game social dynamic is in your group but if the GM and the sam are the bestest of friends you may be talking to a wall.
Still try the social persuit, all the con games already sugested and they fail go pre-emptive on his ass so at least you control the surprise on your side (at least for the first part of the combat)
If all goes good the sam should never even see your sister let alone get within a sword distance to her.
You have to take the initiative into this. Force the GMs hands and do not let off. he needs to learn to not toy with such party dynamics tricks.

I just keep picturing a fight that happened at work 2 years ago. One dude made a joke about another guys wife, was as a passing joke but didint come off as he intended. the dude jumped off the forklift and pummelled the guy to the ground. took 6 guys to separate them. They both got suspended for the day and received a "dont come tomorow" letter in the mail the next day. Violence is an imediate dismisal where i work. So I would have most likely done he same and almost any sane man who loves his wife. Sure in hindsite isnt a good thing to do but hey sometimes you gotta lay it all on the line to protect the ones you love.

So go forth and kill some Giant sam ass and dont let out