Kinda remind's my of XP cost to create magic items in D&D.

Your example wasn't 'surviving death traps', Cain. It was surviving arbitrarily large amounts of Drain, which the person certainly brought on himself. Anyway, the nuke thing is a whole separate issue (incorrectly labeled 'metagaming'), which I believe there's been a large thread about already?

Yes, burning Edge is for avoiding death. It isn't for achieving literally infinite hits on any given test.

This is why I have a house rule that reduces your maximum edge by 1 when you burn edge.

There's a karma cost to create magic items in SR.

Why not? First of all, it's theoretically possible, if highly improbable, for dice to explode an infinite number of times. Second, you might need that arbitrarily high number of successes to Escape Certain Death, as in your nuke example. And I wasn't referring to you when I was talking about burning Edge to escape GM-contrived death traps. When it comes down to it, surviving huge amounts of Drain is just a soak test, no different than any other. Do you restrict the use of Edge when a PC is shot?

No, if you wanted to escape the nuke, you'd just Burn Edge to Escape Death. That's all. No dice trickery.

I might if the PC shot himself in the face with a tank gun, yes.

If you wanted to be conscious and functional (albeit messed up) after the nuke went off, you should burn Edge on soaking the damage. People in Hiroshima were walking seconds after the blast went off, depending on how far away from the epicenter they were.

And you wouldn't if a troll shot himself in the chest with a light pistol, to make a convincing disguise? For shame.

Hmm, bending the rules to survive a nuclear blast?
Sounds like Fridge Logic to me.
Pa-bum-tsh.

you're a little late on that one

Worst part of it is, that's not even what fridge logic means.

~J

I would treat a nuke more like FAB, because at some point the normal rules just break apart. There is a limit to how much shockwave the air can transport, and even a normal steel ship's bulkhead can survive a lot of shockwave impact, as was shown in the experiments done on nukes vs. ships. They put sheep and pigs on the ships, and some survived the blast from fairly close range (but of course later died due to radiation.)

Basically surviving a nuke in close proximity is all sorts of random (IF you have appropriate cover), which just means, if someone wants to burn his edge on it, let him. (Arguably someone messed up the scenario, anyway ). And give him a huge amount of radiation poisoning afterwards. However, I think there must be a Gene-treatment against cancer somewhere, so...

Magic or Cellular Repair should be possible, but you need to be fast.

Fridge Logic occurs when watching a TV show/movie/reading a book and you stand up to get a beer from the fridge and reflect upon some element of the plot that made sense at the time, but now shouldn't have happened.

For example:

In Inception, when the van went off the bridge ("the kick") why didn't the guy in the hotel (the next dream down) wake up? He wasn't inside another dream at the time: he was two deep and the kick was one deep, it should have woken him up.

Right. In contrast, hiding in a fridge to survive a nuclear blast doesn't produce the trademark "delayed reaction"—its implausibilities are immediately apparent. Just because a fridge still appears doesn't make it fridge logic.

~J

The "hide in the fridge" makes sense because it was a 1960s "lead-lined" fridge. He'd survive the radiation. The absurdity which becomes readily apparent is that he survives being hurled several hundred yards while riding inside it.

I'm not remotely convinced that the lining would attenuate the radiation of a 1950s-era nuclear blast to survivable levels, but fortunately (as you say) we don't need to solve that problem to immediately find the overall premise absurd.

~J

Possible, but not being a nuclear physicist I can accept (willingly suspend my disbelief) that there is enough lead.

Fridge Logic are those things that you accept during your willing suspension of disbelief long enough for the plot to take hold and progress, and it is only in retrospect (usually after the movie finishes) that you realize that it shouldn't have worked. The stuff you notice at the time is a plot hole or perhaps just an obvious lamp shade.

This is how shadowrun megacorp programming Wageslaves work.
Program, program code code, CRUNCH CRUNCH BUG BUG PATCH done phew, break, DO IT AGAIN.

At 5 karma every month or two, its no wonder why working for a corp sucks the life out of you

Aaand now you know how SOTA rolls work.

Cain, how is troll/chest/light pistol the same as face/tank gun?

In practice I completely agree with you. Firstly, I don't think I'd ever put my players in a position where I could insta-kill them on a whim. If they were even near a nuclear weapon, it would have to be part of some sort of over-arcing plot in which I would give them at least some sort of out, unless everyone knew it was the last session and they wanted their player to have an awesome last stand or something like that.
Otherwise, why would I put my players, with whom I have been telling this story and whom I presumably like, in a situation like that?

The only other reason I can think of is if the players are so intent on going off the rails that they abandon the story and run off to get a nuclear weapon for some reason, probably to be ornery. If that's the case, then a nuclear blast would do plot damage.

The nuclear blast calculation would only come into play with arguing with rules lawyers(like the guy who claimed he could soak it) who would insist he could soak a nuclear blast and demand the rules be followed.
If folk want to get technical, I can get technical, I just don't like it. Unfortunately, that's a tool you have to have in your arsenal.


Naturally all this can be avoided by following the first rule of role-playing: Don't game with dicks.
Putting your players in a situation where a bad roll could wipe out their characters OR a player insisting he has such a bad-ass at his disposal he could survive an atomic bomb should be avoided.

Wheaton's Law!

I agree that the point is not 'why is there a nuke in this example?'. The point is a potential 'tool' for players (or, I guess, Prime Runners and things?) to claim arbitrary hit numbers, and there's no way that's a good thing to have lying around. Again, if anyone ever wants to survive something, that's what Hand of God is for.

They're both soak rolls.


It's also to pull off the quasi-impossible. Again, no amount of burned Edge can allow you to summon a spirit with a Force greater than 2x Magic. But burning Edge could net you 4 services on the binding roll, and allow you to survive the drain. There's other tools in place if this gets out of hand, but for the most part, it's not inherently broken when done sparingly.

I agree with that. It depends entirely on the use, not the tool. Well, the mechanical technique, anyway; if the player is the tool, then it's still his fault.

Way I understand, that's exactly what burning edge is.
Do you mean natural maximum, so that a single character who burns edge takes a lasting luck scar and eventually just croaks after burn 6/7?

Given the new attribute costs, it's in fact a pretty bad deal for characters with high Edge.

Your interpretation of what "maximum edge" means isn't unreasonable in and of itself, but using it would mean that "maximum edge" means the same thing as just "edge". Given that, it's pretty clear what was intended (though I admit having an attribute that can be partially spent does complicate the issue).

~J

Yeah. You lose a point of edge *and* your natural maximum decreases by one. It's my usual "cost" for burning edge. In the case of HoG, I will sometimes waive it if the near-death was dramatic enough or just a case of truly bad luck.

Works for me. It should leave a scar that can't be fixed with as little as 5 Karma.

What's the point?

Even in Warhammer Fantasy D6, Fate Points were not limited. And it doesn't get much grimmer than that.

I posit that it does: start with your example, and then make it grimmer. Limit the fate points, whatever those are. Ding, grimmer!

But in Warhammer Fantasy (1st or 2nd ed) you can't just raise your Fate Points by spending experience points.

And Yerameyahu, Fate Points are allot like Edge, you just start with 1-4 *depending on race) and they are awarded by the GM and are RARE in most games.

I don't lower the max with burning one, but if my player can't explain a "plausible" reason for the effect, then I don't allow it.

That negates most uses of Escape Certain Death, then. Not what I'd want in my games, personally.

Not as much as you might think. I'm not talking about "reasonable", but at least "plausible".

Example: To avoid a low yield nuclear blast:
Dis-allowed: "I burn an edge to Avoid Certain Death...because at the last minute an alien space ship beamed me aboard." huh-uh. Maybe if I was running Stargate or something, but as is, nope.

Allowed: "I burn an edge to Avoid Certain Death...Hey! Didn't you say there was an old lead lined refrigerator nearby?" pushing it, but plausible. 1:1,000,000 but plausible.

I love it when people come up with BScientific reasons for things. I ran for a techy player one time who was a master of pulling pseudo-BScientific nonsense out of thin air. He sometimes even got a bonus for making us stop and say, "Is that really possible?" even though we all knew he wall full of it.

So, maybe "plausible" might have been a poor word choice. At least make it sound interesting and not make me nuke my "suspension of disbelief". Still subject to my OK that it can be used, but YMMV.

If you're Ms. Londa Cannon of Ohio, being beamed aboard the mothership for a photo op with Elvis isn't out of the question.

But seriously, the nature of rules is to be objective. You're suggesting a subjective replacement: "If it sounds interesting". That's not fair if the player has trouble coming up with interesting details, and has no bearing on rather or not it's dramatically beneficial to your game.

That's probably why RAW makes the GM explain EcD, with whatever rationale he likes.

You don't even need secondary explosions...

First survive the initial gamma ray burst
Then survive the pressure wave
Then survive the heat wave
Then survive the reverse pressure wave
Then survive the firestorm for as many rounds as is necessary to escape it.
Then survive the radiation poisoning.

Or just don't stand next to a nuke when it goes off.

(Thinking cap)

Never been a problem before. Only ever had 3-4 characters in ALLOT of years ever need to use the rule. Never had one NOT come up with wild and interesting ways around things.

Hell, I have a hard time keeping them FROM wild and interesting ideas. If someone couldn't explain it or are fresh out of ideas (not likely with my group ) I probably wouldn't deny them it's use. I've never been that evil a GM.

I've only had one player use it in over twenty years, and that was under SR3. Ironically, it was being at ground zero when a nuke went off. Pony nuke, so not as big of a deal.

However, I have had a lot of uncreative players. Not bad players, mind you, just unimaginative. Just like it's unfair to penalize uncharismatic players who want to play faces, you shouldn't penalize uncreative players with something so subjective.

I wouldn't, just never had that blessing/curse/situation of uncreative players. They all like the idea. Gets to be kinda like a game almost at the table. Then again, I allow commentary/help from the peanut gallery on this sort of thing.

I tend to run LONG continuous campaigns, and nobody wants to really loose a character they've been playing for years.

And I know what you mean about the face thing.....*shudder*, I still have the scars. It was, shal we say....memorable, like when you personally witness a 27 car pile up while watching a tornado slowly play with a trailer park....

Another silly thought . .
You can dodge explosives right? O.o
So do a critical success to dodge the nuke going off ^^

Dodge only increases the scatter.
(You're going to need a huge number of successes to move the nuke 1 mile!)

So? Spend Edge to get the theoretically infinite number of hits, and then burn Edge to get the threshold +4.

More silliness, can you move the nuke by dodging unto your enemy?

That's how dodge rolls roll, by RAW. ;D