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Joker
Has there been any concrete information published about the ghoul nation in Africa other than throwaway lines here and there?

Also is there any real concrete information on Amazonia?

I have most of the books but it has been years since I read them and am slowly working my way back through them.
Large Mike

Regarding the ghoul nation (not going to try and spell it without looking it up), not really. It seems most of the ghouls are Samba-something or other, not the kind we're used to, and I think I read somewhere that they had a queen in charge.

That's about it.
simonw2000
They really should make a Africa book.
Shanshu Freeman
"We are... we are... the Ghouls of the Nation! We are... we are.."
L.D
Check Cyberpirates page 110.
simonw2000
Don't have CP. Anyone else know anything about Asamondo?
Synner
As has been said before the Asamondo ghoul nation gets a writeup in Cyberpirates (which in fact covers the Gold and Ivory Coast of Africa pretty well) and some brief additional material in the adventure pack Predator and Prey.

Regarding Amazonia, the only detailed material so far has been in Dragons of the Sixth World (Hualpa), Sprawl Survival Guide (It's a Small World) and a bit about the Rio end of the Metropole sprawl in SOTA63.
Ancient History
<cough> Original Harlequin Campaign! </cough>
Synner
That has about as much as the chapter in Survival of the Fittest which doesn't really add very much except a lot of jungle.
Ancient History
Yaar. But you have to start somewhere. spin.gif
Mimick
p. 67, SOTA 2063, Battlefields, Africa.

Brief mention of Asamondo as a merc hot spot regarding the smuggling of metahuman bodies into the nation and possible shedim problems.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Joker)
Also is there any real concrete information on Amazonia?

There's also a little adventure set in Amazonia IIRC in Predator and Prey. Although from what I remember it doesn't really add much information and was a bit rail-roading. All of this is from memory from a few years back though.
Kanada Ten
YotC mentions Asamondo in that it had natural orichalcum deposits.

Also, from Cyberpirates, we know it is ruled by a Queen, though her power doesn't seem to extend very far. Ghouls are ghouls after all. The Sasobosam ghouls have longer-arms and higher intelligence.

The queen is said to both care for her people and have a very high charisma.
FlakJacket
Well, care is a bit of a stretch. She does practice mass Eugenics so as to provide a 'respectable' face to the outside world. Although I suppose she could try and argue that she's just trying to raise ghouls standing in the world.
Kanada Ten
Or trying to create a viable nation. A country full of cannibals with no self control wouldn't last long anyway. She's just taking care or the criminals wink.gif
mfb
seems like i remember there being two ghoul nations in Africa. maybe i'm just smokin' teh craxk, though. hafta look that up tonight.
DV8
Am I the only one who thinks that a "ghoul nation" is a little...dumb. Am I the only one who hates the fuck out of HMHVV?
Synner
QUOTE (DV8)
Am I the only one who thinks that a "ghoul nation" is a little...dumb.

Only about as much as three elven nations or Yakut.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (DV8)
Am I the only one who thinks that a "ghoul nation" is a little...dumb. Am I the only one who hates the fuck out of HMHVV?

Okay, I'll bite. What do you dislike so about HMHVV? *Braces for another Shoe Endorsement rant* smile.gif
Steel Machine
I think HMHVV has its place, but I'll concede I do it differently in my own game.
Moonstone Spider
A ghoul nation is stupid only in the sense that ghouls must eat metahuman flesh. That would not only hurt their tourism industry but they would somehow have to import corpses by the thousands, which would be a serious problem given most people's attitudes toward Ghouls and cannibalism in general. Ghouls need to be on the fringe of metahuman societies to get that food, a ghoul nation makes as much sense as a habitat populated entirely by carnivores.
simonw2000
Difference being, carnivores can eat each other's flesh.
Moonstone Spider
QUOTE (simonw2000)
Difference being, carnivores can eat each other's flesh.

Theoretically yes, but without a steady influx of new flesh from Herbivores the ecosystem will only last a couple of days before you run out of carnivores.
Crimson Jack
Well, how big is the ghoul nation supposed to be? If its a small community, that doesn't sound unreasonable. I mean, does "ghoul nation" actually refer to a sizable nation?
toturi
QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)
QUOTE (simonw2000 @ Mar 17 2004, 05:09 AM)
Difference being, carnivores can eat each other's flesh.

Theoretically yes, but without a steady influx of new flesh from Herbivores the ecosystem will only last a couple of days before you run out of carnivores.

Vat cloned metahuman flesh.

Remember, unlike vampires, ghous do not need to eat actual people. They just need "metahuman flesh".
Moonstone Spider
QUOTE (toturi)
Remember, unlike vampires, ghous do not need to eat actual people. They just need "metahuman flesh".

Hmm, is that the canon explanation? It seems kind of odd that Dunkelzahn offered a huge reward for anybody who could find a synthetic substitute for human flesh if Ghouls could already grow what they needed in a petri dish.
toturi
I never did quite understand the "synthetic" part. But I suppose that even when cloning, the technology in 2060 still had to make use of living tissue as a sample/starter.

Perhaps the bequest was for a totally synthetic one, no cloning allowed.
DV8
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (DV8)
Am I the only one who thinks that a "ghoul nation" is a little...dumb. Am I the only one who hates the fuck out of HMHVV?

Okay, I'll bite. What do you dislike so about HMHVV? *Braces for another Shoe Endorsement rant* smile.gif

Hahaha. No, I promise that HMHVV isn't nearly as annoying as Shadowrunners and Shoe Endorsements, however, the thought that "the undead" are nothing but virally afflicted metahumans - and what a virus it is! - leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because it takes the mysticism and the inherent evil out of the creature. To give it a definition and to explain the affliction and the transformation, and the behavior, is to compromise on the concept of a vampire, or a ghoul.
Austere Emancipator
I find that very Shadowrun-ish, to take all that silly mysticism and "inherent evil" out of everything, and giving as simple and logical reasoning to everything as is possible.
DV8
I find it anything but. Shadowrun is part cyberpunk, part manapunk; not the most clinical roleplaying game in the world that tries to define the undefinable. If you want to do that, then you shouldn't try to add mysticism to your game. Magic is magic, not science, otherwise it wouldn't be magic.

And let's not even get started on the idiocy of a ghoul being good natured. "Sure, he craves human flesh but other than that he's a perfectly well adjusted type of guy." There's no such thing as a good Ghoul, otherwise it wouldn't be a Ghoul.

Perhaps I'm too rigid in my thinking, but perhaps the term ghoul, or vampire, in this case is just a big misnomer.
Ancient History
It was a way to get those damn angsty V:TM players to hops over to another 1-die system. They could empathize with the poor inhuman vermin <pumps shotgun>.

Anyways, think of it like the Blade movies. You feel less sad for shooting the things then.
Xirces
QUOTE (DV8)
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Mar 17 2004, 10:31 AM)
QUOTE (DV8)
Am I the only one who thinks that a "ghoul nation" is a little...dumb. Am I the only one who hates the fuck out of HMHVV?

Okay, I'll bite. What do you dislike so about HMHVV? *Braces for another Shoe Endorsement rant* smile.gif

Hahaha. No, I promise that HMHVV isn't nearly as annoying as Shadowrunners and Shoe Endorsements, however, the thought that "the undead" are nothing but virally afflicted metahumans - and what a virus it is! - leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because it takes the mysticism and the inherent evil out of the creature. To give it a definition and to explain the affliction and the transformation, and the behavior, is to compromise on the concept of a vampire, or a ghoul.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Never really had to think about it as they never came up in a game, but surely Ghouls and Vamps should be treated with kindness - after all, they're ill!

Anytime something can be identified as an illness the victim deserves sympathy, not death (look at the way that leprosy is treated compared to a century ago) - even non physical ailments are treated as illnesses, with care and sympathy rather than locking people away (heck, even alcoholism and drug addiction are viewed as illnesses rather than "bad deeds").

OK, I admit that 'runners aren't likely to be too bothered by a social conscience, but there must be a sizable proportion of the population who would support sufferer's rights... (I know that SRComp also talks about this in respect to Ghouls, but there does seem to be an overriding feeling that they're no better than rabid dogs)
Austere Emancipator
Sorry for derailing your topic.

QUOTE (DV8)
If you want to do that, then you shouldn't try to add mysticism to your game. Magic is magic, not science, otherwise it wouldn't be magic.

There is, however, a clear distinction in how Shadowrun handles magic to how, say, D&D handles magic. I would claim that the SR approach is much more systematic, logical, "wannabe-scientific" (think of hermetic mages and MIT&T, for example) than what you find in most fantasy-type games -- or any games where you might find ghouls.

QUOTE
And let's not even get started on the idiocy of a ghoul being good natured.

I'd say we shouldn't get started on the idiocy of branding races Good and Evil. Maybe SR should get Chaotic Evil D&D-Orcs, who only live to pillage and rape and burn and maim and kill (wonder how they got around building their societies when they only ever wanted to pillage and rape and burn and maim and kill each other).

I think it's a strong point of SR that it doesn't do that kind of racial alignment-branding. And vampires sometimes being "good natured" is already part of popular myth (post-Anne Rice, or whatever).

Edit:
QUOTE (Xirces)
there does seem to be an overriding feeling that they're no better than rabid dogs

Give it a hundred or so years...
DV8
I wasn't talking about alignments at all. Like, at all.
Austere Emancipator
I realize that. But, handily enough, you were talking about inherent Good and Evil and monsters and whatever else.
Ancient History
Good, evil, I'm less likely to take a nibble of your entrails if we're in a low-food situation for a week.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (DV8 @ Mar 17 2004, 07:43 AM)
Hahaha. No, I promise that HMHVV isn't nearly as annoying as Shadowrunners and Shoe Endorsements, however, the thought that "the undead" are nothing but virally afflicted metahumans - and what a virus it is! - leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because it takes the mysticism and the inherent evil out of the creature. To give it a definition and to explain the affliction and the transformation, and the behavior, is to compromise on the concept of a vampire, or a ghoul.

That's actually one of the things I like most about the system; they take something that is, for the most part, really stupid (the undead) and actually give it a reason to exist. It also brings in nice ethical quandaries. Shambling evil mindless undead? ohplease.gif At least with Shedim it's not the corpse that's important.

I agree with Austere's comment about Orks. Hell, why don't we give all Elves Aptitudes with bows? I respect a lot of your criticisms of the Shadowrun world, so don't take this as a personal attack against you, but... well... yeah. I disagree quite vehemently here.

~J
Fahr
I bet Docwagon even sells it to them after the "owner" doesn't need it anymore wink.gif

-Mike R.
Arz
Asamando is a nation in the purely lowest sense. It's borders are not strictly defined and whatever the Queen wants, she gets. Azania is the only nation in Africa that might have defined land borders. The rest of them are not in control of there nation to enforce a land claim.
fctarbox3
Actually, I'm bigoted against the HMHVV infected as well. In fact, Shadowrun managed to turn me against all vampires everywhere. I now can't even look at a Masquerade game without getting physically ill.

Except, in my case, it started out for entirely munchkin reasons. I used to be okay with Vampires having a viable place in a society that emphasizes blood donation drives, but the one game system that actually offered this as a valid point of view did something else... they made Vampire feeding take Essence.

I like Cyber Mages. To my munchkin mind, Essence is a carefully hoarded resource. The thought that any creature has to expend this resource without any kind of benefit to the character whose Essence is being consumed just sends me into blind munchkinous rage. So, yeah. I hate vampires.

After that, it wasn't hard to start hating ghouls for their relationship to vampires.

On the other hand, I'm totally against drug addiction of any kind, as well. So, yeah.

As for them being victims of a disease, well... I figure it's like donating kidneys. If someone wants to give up an irreplaceable point of Essence for those poor, afflicted vampires, sure, why not... the problem is, most people don't look at it that way. They think all they're losing is a little blood. It's deceptive and misleading (although not intentionally on the part of [most] Vampires). But the minute you start demanding that people give up their Essence, however indirectly... that's wrong, even if the diseased have to die in the meantime due to a lack of donors.

Yes, I realize I'm taking this far too seriously, but I'll try and defend myself by saying it's the kind of game that asks to be taken seriously.
Dax
QUOTE
Hahaha. No, I promise that HMHVV isn't nearly as annoying as Shadowrunners and Shoe Endorsements, however, the thought that "the undead" are nothing but virally afflicted metahumans - and what a virus it is! - leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because it takes the mysticism and the inherent evil out of the creature. To give it a definition and to explain the affliction and the transformation, and the behavior, is to compromise on the concept of a vampire, or a ghoul.



QUOTE
That's actually one of the things I like most about the system; they take something that is, for the most part, really stupid (the undead) and actually give it a reason to exist. It also brings in nice ethical quandaries. Shambling evil mindless undead?  At least with Shedim it's not the corpse that's important.

I agree with Austere's comment about Orks. Hell, why don't we give all Elves Aptitudes with bows? I respect a lot of your criticisms of the Shadowrun world, so don't take this as a personal attack against you, but... well... yeah. I disagree quite vehemently here.

~J


I'll consider this a repsonce to both sides of the argument here. I actually like the way the "undead" are delt with in Shadowrun, for the main reason that its a different take on the matter than the sterotypical "evil shambling corpse" that I've seen, and fought against a thousand and one times in almost every other RPG on the market.

And besides, even in those games, cases have been made for "good" undead. I will point to the Archlich of AD&D Fame, which according to my 2nd Edition Monsterous Manual is a "good aligned lich, usually of elven origin". Then you also have the ghosts and spectors of deceased Paladins who have appeared to lend help to PC's and the like. So with stuff like that going on, how can we then turn to Shadowrun and say that all HMHVV infected CAN'T have any drop of "goodness" in them. (and I'm not talking just alignment here)

Shadowrun has always had this aura about it of things not being quite the same as everything else. It's one of the few systems where I can have an evil minded elf who DOESN'T have black skin, white hair and a fondness for spiders. Or the Ork down the block who is a careing community minded individual instead of the brtual monster who raids and pillages. Or the Troll who's Oxford Educated and a great fan of Shakephere's work instead of the regenerating beast hiding in the bog. Both Austere and Kagetenshi hit the nail on the head on that one.

I really don't have any problems with the way Ghouls and the like are run right now. Besides, I won't be able to have fun if I can't spring Bob the Happy Go Lucky Ghoul on my players next session. biggrin.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (fctarbox3)
The thought that any creature has to expend this resource without any kind of benefit to the character whose Essence is being consumed just sends me into blind munchkinous rage. So, yeah. I hate vampires.

So, uhh, you hate vampires because what they do to metahumans is unhealthy and usually does not provide any in-game bonuses to the "prey"? Ooo-kay.

Was that post IC, or have you also considered removing muggers from the game? They might be considered to be infected with a socioeconomical illness (no, I'm not being very serious, but then HMHVV is a made-up disease too), and the muggees (usually) don't get anything positive out of being mugged.
Adarael
On a purely technical note, since I don't think it's been mentioned yet, I feel it necessary to point out that Ghouls don't JUST eat metahuman flesh. They have to consume a percentage of body weight per week, but the rest of the food they consume should be the same type of their base racial type - meat, potatoes, beer, say, if they're human, or eucalyptus leaves if a Koala managed to catch the Krieger strain rather than the Drop-Bear strain.

Cloned tissues work just fine, but the drive for synthetic foods is based on price. Cloning bodies is freakin' expensive, and synthetic foods are cheap.

And, for the record, I am wholeheartedly against any inherent, essential good or evil based on race or culture, because I am wholeheartedly against essentialism in the academic sense.
Steel Machine
I think I will weigh on the same wave length as DV8. I think that man would certainly try to classify and clinically examine Vampires, but only a faction. Other factions would see the light, and realize these thinsg eat people, and thus we have conflict.

In my own game using HMHVV arguement is a ploy by certain Vampires and creature sof the night to throw man kind off the scent.
DV8
I won't argue this point, because it's obvious that we're all talking about preference, and I've noticed that my ideals regarding Shadowrun are quite a bit different than the mythical "average DSF poster." But I will leave you with this last thought, which you can discard or contemplate; if you're a Ghoul, stronger than most, with an insatiable craving for human flesh, what do you think your first few kills will do to you psyche?

The choice to treat the Ghoul in your game like a Ghoul, or like a Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of Ghoul is up to you. wink.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (DV8)
if you're a Ghoul, stronger than most, with an insatiable craving for human flesh, what do you think your first few kills will do to you psyche?

Well that's the thing right there. Some might go catatonic and die away soon enough. Some might short-circuit their sense of right and wrong, stop thinking about anything and turn into "animals". Some might find ways to go about getting the necessary ~700g of raw metahuman flesh that do not involve any killing -- and considering how many human cadavers there are in the world, that shouldn't be too difficult.

Some otherwise normal people (although they are liberal, for those of you who don't think it's normal) consider eating human cadavers isn't morally wrong now. If people knew about ghouls, there'd probably be Ghoul Clauses added to people's wills all over. And while the "willing" cadavers couldn't possibly satisfy any significant portion of even metropolitan ghoul populations, a major part of them could sustain themselves on corpses -- stolen or otherwise.

Maybe something between 10% and 50%, depending on cultural things mostly, could keep their mind and sense of ethics almost intact through that. 20-75% if the cadavers are "willing". Considering the amount of non-ghoul population that consists of "evil sonsa bitches", that ain't bad.

QUOTE (Steel Machine)
[...] see the light [...] creature sof the night [...]

So there's two kinds of people who don't like Shadowrun vampires and ghouls: the people who think draining Essence is too munchy, or too bad for munchkins or something; and the people who think that any "creature" who messes with the "sanctity" of the metahuman body is "inherently evil".

Or do we have someone with other reasons not to like SR HMHVV?
toturi
Sometimes, I think that the shedim would have a harder time if hospitals and other places had ghouls to eat corpses.
DV8
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Maybe something between 10% and 50%, depending on cultural things mostly, could keep their mind and sense of ethics almost intact through that. 20-75% if the cadavers are "willing". Considering the amount of non-ghoul population that consists of "evil sonsa bitches", that ain't bad.

...which is, of course, pure conjecture and totally dependent on the type of game you'd like to play.
Austere Emancipator
If you play a game where anyone eating human flesh automatically turns into an inherently evil murdering raping pillaging burning maiming monster, how can you justify the sanity of shadowrunners? They make a living out of ruining people's lives.
Ancient History
Which we've discussed in detail afore, Austere Emancipator. Ah, the wonders of ethical dilemma in role playing games.

Anywho, y'all are all taking this way to seriously.
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