Hey Dumpshock, lately I've been trying to brainstorm new and interesting ways for 'runners to incapacitate targets. I'm looking for any more options than just stick'n'shock/gel ammo rounds, stunbolts or gas grenades. Those are all tried and true, yes, but how about some more interesting ones? I've got a sort of list going on (and I'll include the ones I mentioned just now) but I want to see if anyone else has other fun ideas. That said I'm putting MAGIC out as a blanket method, what with spirits and stun abilities etc.

Close Range:
Stun Baton (usually 6S(e))
Stun Staff (6S(e))
Shock Hands (5S(e))
Good Ol' Fisticuffs (Str/2S)
Electroshock Orthoskin (6S(e)) (Hey is it just me or does this basically mean shock hands, with higher damage, and no need to plug 'em in again ever?)
Tranq Patches (1-20S)
Chemical Gland (Exhalation)(by chemical)
Resonance Trodes + Blackout (By program. TECHNOMANCER only)
MAGIC

At Range:
Stick'n'Shock (6S(e))
Weapons weaker than body armor
Gel Rounds (As Weapon -1)
Capsule Rounds (As weapon -0)
Capsule Rounds (As Weapon -0, + Chemical effects) (Now with toxins in them! Pepper punch capsule rounds anyone?)
Tasers (usually 6S(e))
Super Squirt (As Chemical)
Injection Vector Weapons (As Weapon, + Chemical)
MAGIC

Area of Effect:
Chemical Grenades (As Chemical)
Flash Bang (6S)
MAGIC

So there's my list as it stands. Clearly you'd use some in certain situations rather than others: it's a lot neater to sneak in on someone and slap a tranq patch on them if you're trying to extract them without a struggle, than to send your troll in and sock 'em one. Just saying. YMMV.

Anyone else with contributions?

The ultimate in Non-Lethal Approaches.

Don't be seen so you never have to get into combat in the first place.

In truth, anything can be lethal. That's why items designed for self defense are typically called "Low-Lethality" weapons. The RCMP proved just how lethal tasers are. There are a small percentage of the population allergic to Narcojet, the usual choice in knockout drugs. Even pepper spray can be lethal to someone with asthma (And aren't suggested for people who have it, BTW.).

If part of the job is to take someone against their will, well... Better make sure he isn't allergic to that tranq you just used on him.

Don't forget killing hands. Its quite capable of dealing stun, and in tougher fights, stacking the wound penalties on both tracks can tip the tide.

A quick list of good chemicals to use with your various chemtech items would be good. Better if you can compare cost/availability.

Narcojet, slab for starters.

Killing Hands + Critical Strike indeed. Massive damage, but you can still elect to do Stun.

Add elemental strike(sound) for totall armor penetration and your doing some impressive stun damage.

Well waddayaknow, that actually legally stacks. Nasty.

Yup. Got a Phys. Ad. in my game and this is damn near broken. The fact that Distant Strike doesn't stack and Melee attacks are a Complex action has kept it in check. That, and it's sort of his thing to not need weapons of any sort. And with this combo, and if he can manage to get a hit in, he really doesn't.

Nearly as impressive as just using shock or drugs.

Subdual does stun. lots of it. i've seen a troll adept with attribute boost (Str) and finising move do a successful subdual attack and 12S instant. because Str doesn't get halved

Hertza Haeon?




-k

For me it's definitely the nerve strike power. You won't often need to do more than 4 or 5 'damage' to incapacitate someone for minutes. Even if you don't get them first time you'll still slash either their attack rolls or their initiative and defence rolls making a second-hit 'kill' even more likely.

That said, garottes are kinda classy.

There's also slab (Arsenal, page 76).

Wow, does this stack with the various martial arts techniques that improve your unarmed DV?

As in, could somebody take the following for a total of +8 DV:

2 Ranks of Boxing (+2 DV)
1 Rank of Karate (+1 DV)
1 Rank of Kung Fu (+1 DV)
2 Ranks of Muay Thai (+2 DV)
1 Rank of Tae Kwon Do (+1 DV)
1 Rank of Wildcat (+1 DV)

Pretty sure you can't.

Got a quote? It seems to me like they'd all stack (and cost you 80 karma), theres even this which seems to hint that it would stack even if its not directly talking about DV, though you'd be limited to +7 DV:

Speaking of which...when did that get changed? Recently saw this change (from the previous 0 modifier) in the 4A book, but is not mentioned in the changes doc.

I think Ramaloke is right here. The quote from Arsenal, page 156 is pretty solid.

Wow.

*shrug*. I could've sworn there was a specific rule that said DV stacks to +3 max, or something. Obviously, no GM would ever allow the abuse you've presented, but I thought there was an actual cap in the rules.

About elemental strike, it isn't that it adds DV to the base damage, but it can add secondary effects. Is this right? So in the case of (sound) above, its only effect is that it ignores armor. Am I correct here?

Yes and no.

Yes, martial arts unarmed DV stacks.... to a point

STILL...... its pretty good



No, because errata makes it cap out at +3. Yerameyahu is absolutely right. The rest of you suckers forgot to check the errata.

Source: Page 4, p.156 martial arts

So, at CharGen you'd be limited to

Base DV = Strength / 2
+
Critical Strike +6DV
+
Martial Arts +3DV
+
Net Hits on Agility + Unarmed Combat (Martial Art) vs. Reaction+(Skill)

resisted only with Body

There's really a good chance you'll do some P damage even if you don't intend to, just through overflow from the first hit.

Does all of that stack WITH Subdual Combat?
Also, don't forget about Boneworks and Hardliner-Gloves to get more Damage.

only the Wrestling MA specifically states to contribute DV to subdual. From the wording I'd say nothing else does

Well, the only important thing about the subdual would be that the damage is not STR/2 but strength alone.
If you could THEN add the other stuff it would become cruel and unusual punishment ^^

+ the rating of sound dampeners, if the target has those.

Stop fighting the poor construction crews and goblin rock venue staff already!

I don't think so, but you'd have to perform close rule inspection to be sure.

I think you're better off hurling the PhysAdept into enemy formations and letting him split his dice pools between multiple opponents (as long as they're within 1m of each other it's allowed; use your chokepoints to advantage.) Sure, some enemies actually have sufficient melee defense that you need to go 1:1, but when you start using powergamed dice pools, mooks can't keep up.

Alternatively, multiple IPs.

Oh, and if you're going for godlike Agility anyway, why not sneak up and Surprise?



Those don't have a rating, they just give a +2 dice to resist it.

Oh, right was going purely on the sound elemental effect description in Street Magic, witch talks about ratings.

Stacked Damage DV from Martial Arts is capped at +3 DV... it is in the book/Errata if I remember correctly...

I've had great success with Blackout (Matrix Stun damage), especially Psychotropic variants. Remember, if you knock somebody out their Matrix connection is still active so you can track their body (the IC Juhenga Seju does this) and capture them easily. For Secuirty deckers and spiders, knocked out is usually as good as dead and Psychotropics makes it fun too. Scorched is an obvious candidate, as is Paranoia (Matrix) but you can have an equally fun time with things like Paranoia (security guards), Paranoia (Authority figures) or even Paranoia (the color orange). If you kill or disable a security hacker, they can usually bring in another one instantly from somewhere else in the Matrix, screw with ones mind and their security is either permanently disabled or turned against them.

Aha! Thank you for reminding me.
Technomancer with Resonance Trodes ability + Blackout. Let me put that up in the main post too.

Resonance Trodes in general is a pretty crazy (and basically unexplained in any way) power. Blackout or not, you can (theoretically, depending on the GM and the phase of the moon) do some weird and effective things.

Wait, Resonance Trodes? I just meant general Matrix use. What's a Resonance Trode?

I GOT IT! The ultimate knock out drug and method to use it!

It's cheap, legal in most parts of the world, and you're likely to get the target to take it themselves.

Alcohol! Have your Pornomancer slide up to the target, magically masked in whatever sex/metatype/perversion is appropriate, and get the target wasted enough.

There will be a bar full of people who can swear (And the staff might even be sober!) that the target left of his own free will!

Task complete.

Resonance trodes are just a way of ensuring the target is gonna be matrix-side. It's an advanced echo from Unwired, page 148 that lets a technomancer use his or her touch as trodes on another person. It specifically lets the technomancer do a Resonance + Willpower vs Intuition + Willpower to drag someone into hot sim even if they try to resist it. And all you need to apply the trodes is a touch from the Techno.

Pretty neat if you ask me. Plus its requirement is simply skinlink, which lets you jack into any device by touch, even if the device in question doesn't have skinlink adaptation. Heck even if the device in question doesn't have a connection link at all. Being a human trode just makes it more fun for the whole family.

What if (s)he's a troll? A *big* troll?

(S)he'll be an expensive date. Still, surely, the pornomancer doesn't ever pay for drinks in bars.

Fairly limited in terms of opportunity though. Hard to convince a patrolling security guard to go on a bender with you, even for a pornomancer. Also, it rarely suits to be the last person seen with the Target before the mischief begins.

Not quite. It also causes nausea. If the damage done by the attack exceeds willpower, the target is automatically incapacitated.

Sonic is nasty.

It also throws away the one thing that makes close combat preferable over guns.
The relative silence. It's basically a sonic boom. as if you ahd crossed the sound barrier.
AN EARTH SHATTERING KABOOM.

It's what they use in movies, that sound when someone is punched, to let the audience know it was a real hard punch

This is true, but you don't have to use the sonic part of the equation. If noise is happening anyway, circumventing the armor of your opponent is pretty valuable.

Are there any effective delivery methods for freeze foam?

Grenade, glop gun?

Injector rounds.






-k

It also deafens the victim for 10 minutes.
A kaboom though? Nowhere does it say this noise is inside the range of human hearing. I do believe low frequency sounds tend to be more damaging to most 'heavy' solids, including tissue.

Also, freeze foam grenades are awesome. It could be dispersed via aerosol as well. I recall there is a main vehicle weapon in Arsenal that has being used for freeze foam by LS or somesuch as an example in the fluff.
...Freeze foam cigarette?

, although maybe not quite non-lethal.

If we're going to play the 'there are no *rules* that it makes a sonic boom' game, there are no rules that injecting freeze foam does anything, either.

Well, there's something to be said for sub-human hearing range for sonic attacks. Most weapons based on sound tend to have odd frequencies. The right sensor could still pick it up of course. It's still noisy.

I dunno about the hearing ranges of sub-humans, but (near)-ultrasonic is just as likely (Screech Rifle). Honestly, we don't know; I'm just saying it's important to be reasonable on everything, instead of assuming the most convenient or powerful result for each case. Sonic-element punches are already pretty esoteric to begin with, there's smoke, and light… bleh.