Was reading Threats 2 a few days ago and came across something odd in the part about the Network (Deus' human network which reconstructed him after the Arcology meltdown). One section mentioned that they were all Deus' created Otaku, which was odd because they all also had special cyberware in them. I can't check my books right now but was Deus able to make Otaku?

Yes, but they where only viable in the Renraku SCIRE Arcology Network, unabled to use their abilities in the rest of the matrix. They made up the bulk of his whites, IIRC. Althought the elite whites where real Otaku that followed DEUS.

AFAIK, the only other artificial Otaku created in canon was Ronin in the Technobabel novel, though that might have been the Deep Resonance, so maybe he just was a latent Otaku with late emergance. I think he was already past twenty and he even kept his abilities without fading, or it was at least delayed, I think - might be wrong there.

Which were created by Mirage.


... and that also was Mirage (the novel psychotrope is explicit there). The mystic-magical pseido-astral of the matrix' deeper spheres taken at face value (and not as an illusion created by an AI) is a 4th edition introduction.

Ah, great, that´s the novel I meant or are there 2??? didnt read either, just have 2nd hand knowledge and stuff from modules/sorcebooks. Thanks for the intell.

So DEUS & Mirage are really a lot like Wintermute & Neuromancer eh?

No prob.

There're two novels on Otaku, one being Technobabel, and the other being Psychotrope (which, among others, features Hitomi Shiawase, and lesbian vampire killers). Psychotrope is very explicit in that an AI, Mirage, is creating Otaku. The point of the book, btw, is the AI making Otaku of Adults by trapping them in the Matrix until they're 'done'.


It's a bit more complicated with the origin, but essentially yes, that's what System Failure played it as. Then we got the singularity, the splitting of the AI into shards that play ghost in the machine, and the guys with biocomputer brains (and then, the otaku fanbois stepped in and made technomancers mage lite).

O.o Are the lesbian vampire killers killers of lesbian vampires or lesbian killers of vampires (or both)? Never mind

On 4thE & TMs
My interpretation is, that besides all the small AIs and Sprites being fragments of the old ÜberAIs, some fragments buried much deeper into the basic structures of the new matrix. All the Ressonancerealm crap still is just an AI induced hallucination - only the AIs don´t show their hand in it anymore. So for me TMs are still Otaku - allthough crossed with electric eals, so they can produce electromagnetic signals. It still dosn´t make perfect sense, but it is easier for me to swallow.

I would LOVE to believe that, MK... but Technomancers are clearly unmagically magical (and don't make ANY sense).

For them to make sense again: Their Sprites should be limited by their position like agents (as it is now they get the processing power from... the goddess Shiva or something)

Lose some metatechniques: Skinlink is just completely IMPOSSIBLE and the damn TRODES-Version, my GOD.

I clearly prefer Otaku's

I would love to believe this, but they have been clearly made out to be something magical. I talked to an author of Unwired, and he confirmed this.


THEY ARE THE ONE.

At least, with Unwired, that's essentially what TMs are. Threading is a non-action and can be rolled as often as desired, stacking, or as often as fading can be resisted. All a TM really needs is a maxed fading attribute with all the boni he can get.

Then there's all these Echos.

Personally, I'd prefer if naked hacking with only your brain was a skill for all - because that's where otaku and TMs came from, an optional rule in 1E that was lost in 2E and brought back with the Otaku. It shouldn't require you to be fucking Keeanu Reeves the pseudo-magical mutant ubermensch, though.

Oh, and Shiva is a god, actually, god of sex, drugs and drug-related violence. It's a misconception because Squaresoft decided that would be a good name for an ice summon.

Of course, what oldschool hacker dosn´t, all those cloths just iritate your skin, when you shake like mad from the biofeedback. Besides, why bother, if you stay in bed all day anyway

Serially though, no link/deck hacking is great and should be more easily available. Just make this quality that let´s you hack w/o programm cheaper or broader or even free (though I like it if it still needs some tricks). Then maybe also drop off sim modules (saying all matrix signals are sim by default needing no module to interpret), or integrate them in the datajack (or make them nigh ubiquitous in terminals as I´d do).

Re Neo
You think next matrix sorcebook TMs get Echos to use their electromagnetic body field to fly? *ducks

So how'd the Network reconstruct Deus and Mirage outside of the Arcology if their powers only work within the Arcology?

And doesn't that insinuate that anyone with the proper knowledge can create an Otaku/Techno? Which creates a serious question: how could Deus be so far ahead of everyone else that even after close to a decade of the Megas examing and dissecting every Techno they could get their hands on, no one can duplicate his technique? Heck, they don't even have to invent it from scratch like he did, they just need to understand and copy his design, which should be a lot easier.

As for Technos being magical, that might be the way they're designed but that's just...well, lets not namecall, but it would open a whole can of worms. Once you allow the Matrix to affect the magical world and vice-versa you open up a host of funky possibilities because the Matrix is designed and constructed by humans and they have direct and focused control over it. Magic follows certain limited traditions but there's sop much control over the Matrix that you have to confine it to artificial reality.

While Mirage/Psychotrope was able to create otaku (and cure somebody's spinal cord via the matrix) in Psychotrope, the idea that she is the Deep Resonance and thus behind ALL otaku is at best conjecture. Also, taking things presented as possible in the novels at face value is no good idea

It wasnt mirage that was in the network with Deus, but Maegra. Mirage was the first of the 3 AIs.

As for how they could make Otaku while mega's can't make TMs, well simply put have you ever tried to make a nuclear bomb at home? Imagine the megas are joe average trying to make a homemade nuclear bomb while the original AIs are the nuclear physicist with a full lab, gov't funding and all the necesseties. Sure they can get the schematics and if they have a spare, take it apart, but if they try to make one from scratch... Well good luck with that, they really don't know what they are doing.

Not a perfect way of explaining it, but I think it works.

The Network came far later, it consisted of the arcology survivors who were supposed to carry DEUS fragmented code to the outside and recompile it there. Unfortunately Morgan/Magera was battling Deus when the upload happened, hence she also got sucked away into the survivor's brains and now the two parts of the network were battling each other.

Sure, Matrix Magic is much better.

Because Mirage is the only mysterious phenomen ever spotted in the Matrix, so it gotta be her or magic...right

It's the only two phenomena mentioned, so yes. I mean, certainly you could make up that it's actually the alien AI from Alpha Centauri that was talking dirty to Neurowintermancermute and made it explode in Neuromancer, or maybe HAL 9000 from the Jovian orbit who is bored, but that'd be wholly unsupported by canon.

And now there is a third phenomenon in our nice fictional world, a mysterious "undercurrent" in the worldwide grid which some people can tap into...big deal.


FTFY

That is definitely one opinion... Not one that I happen to agree with, but there you go...

Re Network
DEUS´ homemade Otaku where actually abled to log on to the matrix outside the SCIRE, without using a deck, they just couldnt realy do anything there, since they had no ability to use their forms and channels outside. For compiling purpose, it was sufficient, though. But Threats 2 (? or was it system failure?) states, that the older ones where already loosing that ability, as well, pushing DEUS to speed up the compilation.

So if you ignore parts of canon that you don't like, you are right. Yes, sure.

The third phenomenon is there, but taken as this, it opens that whole can of worms you previously mentioned. And it is at odds with previous canon. Mysterious undercurrent that is magic in all but name.

Once again and just for you: There is not a single line which states that Mirage equals the Deep Resonance. All there is is conjecture based on the fact she was able to create (adult) Otaku in Psychotrope.


So is nanotech, Exploit programs...

It seems more likely that the Deep Resonance is something *else*, much like the Dissonance is something *else* (and not Deus), since neither of these forces have the same drives/goals that their ostensible roots do, and do not 'act' per se, save as vague will that some - and only some - otaku and technomancers claim to feel and understand.

Plus, Otaku existed before 2060, outside of systems where Mirage had access to, and knew of the Deep Resonance then. It specifically had to make contact with them. Mirage *could* make Otaku in the fashion that Deus could, but not all Otaku were Banded or Mirage-created.

Wait.. WHAT??
Squaresoft used the name "Shiva" as an ice summon: True.
Shiva is a god. True.
God of Sex, drugs and drug-violence? Where did that come from?
I was always under the impression that Shiva, was a hindu deity who embodies the nature of the Destroyer. Hindu tri-deity has Brahma the Creator and Visnu the Preserver as the other aspects. He's also known for having many-arms (hence the "Shiva arms" surge) and sometimes also known as "Nartaka" which means the dancer (hence the name "Nartaki" for the human metavariant with..... shiva arms.)
Granted, various sects of hinduism view him in different lights, and various incarnations or associations place him with different aspects but.. Drugs? Sex? Rock and Roll? First time i've heard that.

For the OP: Yes Deus (and the other Great AIs) were supposed to be able to create Otaku servants (Puck, Pax). Which is one reason that Clockwork (and a number of others) think Technomancers are trojans just waiting to serve their dark masters.

This just in: Great AIs are out there, hiding behind the guise of Deep Resonance and working to eliminate humanity! As a matter of fact, Great AIs = TITANs!

THIS is a much more interesting idea than "It's Mirage & Deus".

I always thought that's where the TITANS idea developed from, seeing as EP started out as Shadowrun Beyond. The name, though, is a blatant rip from the (horrid) Dune prequels. But then again, nearly every cool SciFi has taken inspiration from Dune.

But who was Prometheans?

Except the idea that the Megas are in no way similar to Joe Average. They have basically the best scientists they can buy or steal and the best equipment in the world. It'd be more like Tesla or Einstien vs the entire scientific community. Sure, a Tesla is brilliant enough to invent something no one else thought of but the idea that none of the slightly-less brilliant scientists in the world can duplicate it when they have the design in front of them beggars belief.

Also, for the AIs, wasn't there a third one who existed before the Otaku came about. Never heard of him doing anything but he would actually be the best candidate for creating Otaku/the Resonance.

PS. Yeah, I think Shiva's more of a destroyer than anything else.

Yes, Mirage, the awakened support program in the fight against the 2029 virus program, which was supposed to be Deep Resonance in the novel PSychotrope.

While Psycotrope pretty much implied that Mirage was the Deep Resonance, as did Threats 2 and a few others, it still left enough to the imagination for something bigger and greater.
In any event, Puck says that not all otaku experienced the Deep Resonance.

However, Emergence very clearly states that Crash 2.0 was the end of all three god-like AIs and they are now really, most sincerely dead.
Their deaths may be the remaking of the Matrix Pax was keen on. It did, in fact, put an end to that pesky Fading problem that came with age. It would also explain why so many TMs are the result of AIPS and other Crash 2.0 problems.

I like the idea that the old AIs became part of the base code of the Matrix, creating a new meta plane that only those with very specialized magic, like Leonardo, have. Programing the Matrix of 2070 pretty much requires you to use multiple computers before you can program a computer. When a user is so far removed from the base code he is using, things slip through the cracks. Heck, even now we aren't 100% on why computers stop working. Try turning it off and on again. What was the problem? Who cares, it's fixed now.

All that stuff that you aren't sure is there gives the Matrix this unexplored, new realm feeling that turns technology into magic.
I like that because I play with IT guys and I need something to shut them up.

Fading never was an issue for Hitomi Shiawase, Red Wraith and the others either.

What did change as that suddenly, Technomancers gained the ability to radiotransmit.


Omnissah protects.

Nor for Leonardo, if we're getting into freaky magic-tech crossover.

But it did for Pax and Puck, who are the ones who decided killing a million people and rewriting the Matrix would be easier than buying a damn deck.

Yes, neither for him. All the more implication that resonance = magic.


Yeah, and then Fastjack was all like, hey, Puck's actually a totally swell guy!

And THEN, the world decided to love AIs after they killed hundreds of thousands in gruesome experimentation and millions in collateral damage (which is the topic of writing assignments in high school according to 6WA and hence, common knowledge!) and Sojourner decided to bomb a city an hour with bioweapons until it got it's way. Because despite writing themselves in a corner like this, the AI/otaku fanwankers wanted their special snowflakes to be playable and universally accepted.

I cannot really blame them because anything in touch with that plot fails to make sense,right from the outset that Dodger's virtual persons fetish generated the first AI.

Exactly, the otaku created by Mirage never suffered fading. So if Mirage would have been behind all otaku...

And invitations to Jackpoint are not done based on sympathy scores. Kane or Black Mamba are certainly no role models, either.

...those were the improved model. As is said in the book.

Can't remember that being said in the novel, but it's been a while since I read it...you have a page numer?

But nevertheless, improving something does not require you to have built it. Deus also was able to create what he considered an improvement of the original otaku, yet he does not appear on the list of possible candidates for the Deep Resonance. Evo can build you an improved body, but they are not the creators of mankind
Also, otaku were still fading in '64. If Mirage was behind all the DR shenanigans and had found a way to upgrade her childen, why did this improvment only affect five (?) people?

Because AI are weird and writers inconsequential and often not really well versed in teh background.


It's somewhere towards the end, I think it's the voice of the Pueblo teacher woman who says this. I'd have to look that up.

It would be more accurate to say that Psychotrope contradicted the original Otaku writeups, than subsequent writers "weren't well versed in the background." Virtual Realities 2.0 came out in 1995, establishing the basics of Otaku and how they worked. Psychotrope was written in 1998. Then, in 2002, Threats 2 came out, talking about Mirage, Deus, et cetera, and while it hinted that the Deep Resonance MAY be Mirage, it never explicitly stated that it was - or, in my opinion, even *implied* other than a 'some otaku think' situation, thereby leaving it open to interpretation if Mirage is or is not the deep resonance.

This is a continuing theme, when it comes to novels and sourcebooks. Sourcebook comes out, Novel tweaks what is said in the sourcebook, subsequent books either support or ignore the novel. Lest we forget: Leonardo is explicitly stated to be Leonardo daVinci several times, and is explicitly stated NOT to be daVinci several times. The Yakashima corporation was invented *whole cloth* in an early novel, where (out of nowhere) it was stated to be a AAA corporation. This was later retconned down to merely AA, because it was a huge WTF moment. The novels are *not* the best source to look for coherency and research in.

I won't get into whatever it does or does not say in 6th World Almanac, because I've looked at the book, but don't own it.

That's Yamatetsu, in 2XS. Yakashima's first mention, to my knowledge, was in NAN 1.


He's quite bonkers, I'd not trust that he always says the truth.

Which is why using novels as authorative sources may lead to undesired results.

[sarcasm]
Hey, if Horizon says that AI's are such good guys, then I'll believe them. Come on, why Horizon would lie to us?
[/sarcasm]

Yeah, I tried to reconcile all this stuff, but it is impossible to hold any water, either I ignore all this happening or would put a bounty on TM's and AI's.

As opposed to the well researched and written sourcebooks. Like War!, 6WA, or Corp Guide.


Personally, I'm in favor of banning them as PC (both) and the bounty, occasionally using them as villains.

Hrm. I'm pretty sure the same is the case with Yakashima, but I could be wrong. Either way: "Suddenly, a new AAA appears against all game book canon!" is indicative that *not caring about continuity* is also a sin of novel authors.

And, if you're not going to trust Leonardo because he's crazy, I don't think you should trust what people *think* about Mirage, either. Seriously, your hate-on for CGL and their products is blinding you to the fact that a LOT of Shadowrun authors from the earlier years were chock full of the retarded.

@hermit: You can't deny that he has a point, though. Just think of Jack Slater who activated his Reflexbooster and was able to jump 9 feet up in the air iirc.

Sure, but considering back in the day novels and sourcebooks were much closer coordinated in terms of broad background, I tend to give the novels more credit for such things (not anything that the rules simulate).

That is *patently untrue*, man. The early novels not written by people involved with writing sourcebooks - and even some that were - were written pretty much in a total vaccuum. To the point where initially FASA suggested the novels were not to be considered canon, and later Rob said, "Naw, sure, whatever." Shit, the Dragonheart trilogy is a massive retcon of stuff they had already written.

You're wrong, as Adarael said. Don't let your disappointment over the last releases influence your judgement of past books and novels too much.

That was post Sargent, right?

I am unsure when they stopped doing this, but at least during Sargent's and Findley's time, the sourcebooks and novels were written by the same people. I also took the Dragonheart stuff as coordinated with the sourcebooks, since a LOT of stuff was cross-referenced.

Obadiah Stane: "Here is the technology. I've asked you to simply make it smaller."
Scientist: "All right, and that's what we're trying to do, but... honestly, it's impossible."
Obadiah Stane: [shouting] "Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps!"
Scientist: "Well, I'm sorry. I'm not Tony Stark."






-k

Lisa Smedman wrote Psychotrope (to bring up the novel which has been discussed here lately). She wrote a couple of SR novels, but doesn't have any credits for contributing to a sourcebook.