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Omenowl
I have been reviewing character generation and have a couple of questions that I thought I knew:

The first is when you get an adept or magician and you get cyberware is the magic/resonance rating calculated before or after the inclusion of cyberware.

The question arises from this statement in the rules

Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect
other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also affect his Magic
or Resonance (see p. 177).


Does this mean the essense loss is a maximum attribute with the associated +25 for the highest attribute, or does it mean the player buys the magic/resonance attribute up and then as he adds essense it drops during character creation? I have been using the latter interpretation, but now I am not sure if I am applying it correctly.


The next question which comes into effect is the use of cyberware and essence loss. Are the multiplier reductions added or multiplied

For example:
Our runner has
A suite for 10% reduction
Alpha ware for 20% reduction
Biocompatibility 10% reduction
Adapsin is 10% reduction

Now if we multiply everything out we get 0.5832 and if we add the reductions we get 0.5 essence cost. For deltaware it is a bit more extreme with 0.3645 multiplied and 0.2 for added.

It gets even stranger when you include alphaware with secondhand because if you add then it has a cost of 1, but if you multiply then you get 0.96 essence loss.
Mäx
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 24 2011, 02:38 AM) *
Does this mean the essense loss is a maximum attribute with the associated +25 for the highest attribute, or does it mean the player buys the magic/resonance attribute up and then as he adds essense it drops during character creation? I have been using the latter interpretation, but now I am not sure if I am applying it correctly.

You first buy up your magic and then the essence loss reduces it.
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 24 2011, 02:38 AM) *
The next question which comes into effect is the use of cyberware and essence loss. Are the multiplier reductions added or multiplied

For example:
Our runner has
A suite for 10% reduction
Alpha ware for 20% reduction
Biocompatibility 10% reduction
Adapsin is 10% reduction

Now if we multiply everything out we get 0.5832 and if we add the reductions we get 0.5 essence cost. For deltaware it is a bit more extreme with 0.3645 multiplied and 0.2 for added.

It gets even stranger when you include alphaware with secondhand because if you add then it has a cost of 1, but if you multiply then you get 0.96 essence loss.

By RAW its not really clear but the essence cost of the various suites in aug are calculated as a series of reductions, in this case its the essence cost*0,9*0,8*0,8*0,9 = the final essence cost.
Augmentation errata supposedly(according to multiple devs, including the former line developer) clarifies that your add up all the reductions together first(just like the reductions to initiation and submersion costs) and changes the suites cost to match that.
But sadly that errate is still unrealeased outside of germany frown.gif
Omenowl
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 23 2011, 06:51 PM) *
You first buy up your magic and then the essence loss reduces it.

By RAW its not really clear but the essence cost of the various suites in aug are calculated as a series of reductions, in this case its the essence cost*0,9*0,8*0,8*0,9 = the final essence cost.
Augmentation errata supposedly(according to multiple devs, including the former line developer) clarifies that your add up all the reductions together first(just like the reductions to initiation and submersion costs) and changes the suites cost to match that.
But sadly that errate is still unrealeased outside of germany frown.gif


Now that I multiply the suites they added the 0.1 reduction for suite and 0.2 for alphware to give a 0.7. So I tend to favor the addition.
Yerameyahu
Of course, none of the existing suites are worth getting, so the question will never come up. smile.gif
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 07:46 PM) *
Of course, none of the existing suites are worth getting, so the question will never come up. smile.gif


The reason I ask if creating a wounded veteran the lost all 4 limbs, eyes, ears and needed a cybertorso and skull. It seems a fairly straight forward replacement that would be eligible for a cybersuite.
Yerameyahu
It really doesn't, though. Suites are described as much more careful than just 'a lot of cyber together'. Also… he lost *everything*? Christ. biggrin.gif
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 08:14 PM) *
It really doesn't, though. Suites are described as much more careful than just 'a lot of cyber together'. Also… he lost *everything*? Christ. biggrin.gif


You are right, but the text states

While the cyberware suites introduced below represent
only a sampling of the many available in the back-alleys, clinics,
and treatment rooms of the Sixth World, the gamemaster should
always keep in mind that cyberware suites—even those of highgrades—
are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized
packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential
consumer in mind, be they corporate employees or the customers
off the street.


In this case we are not including combat options, but rather someone who has severe trauma rather than a combat monster. So there should be a suite to represent this area.

I basically took two examples in combat where the character had an rpg go through the vehicle popping the eyes from their sockets and rupturing the eardrums due to the pressure change as the rpg sucked the air out. The guy crawled out of the apc, then a white phosphorous grenade exploded causing severe fire injury to arms, legs, body and head. Barely alive, but conscious he was flown to the hospital where doctors figured it would be faster to replace the parts rather trying to save the limbs and get him to rehabilitation. The character has modular cyberlimbs so the military grade stuff in a limb stayed in the armory and he could move relatively normally in civilian life. So when he left the military he simply took the non restricted or forbidden limbs.
Fatum
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 24 2011, 05:14 AM) *
It really doesn't, though. Suites are described as much more careful than just 'a lot of cyber together'. Also… he lost *everything*? Christ. biggrin.gif

Maybe he was a tank driver. Have you seen the injuries they end up with? It's like something that was once a human melted until there was barely a half left, sintered into a lump.
Yerameyahu
Certainly, the rules say you can invent some. I'm just saying that a total body cyber + eyes + ears doesn't seem like a normal consumer market, by any stretch. smile.gif There's a part you didn't quote about how huge amounts of research and fiddling goes into optimization, etc., in order to eke out that 10%; thematically, it simply feels like a stretch.

Fatum, that's my point. If there's *that* much gone, it's amazing that there's *anything* left.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 09:05 PM) *
Certainly, the rules say you can invent some. I'm just saying that a total body cyber + eyes + ears doesn't seem like a normal consumer market, by any stretch. smile.gif There's a part you didn't quote about how huge amounts of research and fiddling goes into optimization, etc., in order to eke out that 10%; thematically, it simply feels like a stretch.

Fatum, that's my point. If there's *that* much gone, it's amazing that there's *anything* left.


Lets see cybereyes, ears and skull makes sense. The fully body replacement makes sense if you want any enhancement over 3 for the limbs. So it seems the limbs and body work well together. The head, eyes and ears work well together. Not too much of a stretch to combine head with the torso.

Yerameyahu
I didn't say that. smile.gif I said that it's an odd (and huge) collection of cyber, for a very small potential market.

For the record, though, I don't agree that skull + eyes + ears particularly makes sense. wink.gif Nor does a 5-limb set, really (just ask the optimizers, heh). I do agree that getting a 10% discount on Essence would be convenient for your character. biggrin.gif
Ascalaphus
Well, there's probably a Fire Victim suite. There'd be a market for it.

Just make sure so include some sort of orthoskin as a standard component; scar-tissue skin is pretty freakish, I'm sure victims want something more natural-looking.
Yerameyahu
What skin? It's a 6-limb set. biggrin.gif

On a semi-serious note, can't they already replace the limbs and skin with real clonal bits in 2070? This kind of assumes that it's for someone who *wants* more than +3 to everything, which is exactly what they're *not* talking about with "are not designed to a runner’s needs, but are standardized packages the cyberware manufacturer develops with a potential consumer in mind". *shrug*.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I would think with a combination of cloned parts and gene therapy that you'd either be getting new, mundane bits or cyberlimbs if you're really and truly wrecked rather than extensive biomods. And for what little it's worth, standard Orthoskin isn't the same thing as a skin replacement either. It's actually placed underneath your surface layers of skin as opposed to the kind of grafting present in dermal plating. I do think some of the Augmentation upgrades for orthoskin do treat the upper layers though, like the shark skin, for example. Probably not worth thinking about too hard though-- it's not like this stuff is really a model of internal consistency.
Critias
If your GM's cool with it as a cyber suite, that's fine...but I just don't see many people losing both arms, both legs, their torso, their face, their eyes, and their ears, and still being alive to rebuild. How often is that going to happen, really, compared to the number of law enforcement SWAT guys out there, the number of office rat-race types eager for a logician suite, etc?

I mean, God knows a guy that wants that much chrome is gonna need every discount he can get in order to cram it into a character, and he still likely won't be the top-notch combat guy you'd think (since he's got so little Essence left for any reaction enhancers, for starters)...so if the GM's cool with it, obviously, knock yourself out. But it seems like kind of a stretch as a justification, is all. Just how "mass produced" would such a package be, really?
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 09:35 PM) *
I didn't say that. smile.gif I said that it's an odd (and huge) collection of cyber, for a very small potential market.

For the record, though, I don't agree that skull + eyes + ears particularly makes sense. wink.gif Nor does a 5-limb set, really (just ask the optimizers, heh). I do agree that getting a 10% discount on Essence would be convenient for your character. biggrin.gif


The real question is it a standardized package that makes sense? Replacing limbs, torso and head makes sense to integrate that into one. The eyes and ears are the two of the most common replacements by the general populace. There seem to be plenty of suites that include eyes and ears into them so adding this to a skull is not far feteched. This package does make sense for soldiers, warriors, guards, severe trauma and cyberfetishists. Nothing is restricted or forbidden which helps the sale. The modular limbs can be customized depending on the buyer, which helps sales.

Which leaves the real question is there enough of a market for this package? Does the research allow for less severe replacements such as torso and arms, or torso and legs so while the cost may be high initially it allows for a greater range of research for similar costs?
Yerameyahu
Well, again: yes and no. It *doesn't* make sense for "soldiers, warriors, guards", nor really severe trauma, either. That leaves cyberfetishists? smile.gif

Eyes and ears *are* very common. Skulls are very, very *un*common. biggrin.gif Total replacements is even more so: it's expensive, inefficient, ineffective, and kinda insane… certainly fringe, anyway.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 10:32 PM) *
Well, again: yes and no. It *doesn't* make sense for "soldiers, warriors, guards", nor really severe trauma, either. That leaves cyberfetishists? smile.gif

Eyes and ears *are* very common. Skulls are very, very *un*common. biggrin.gif Total replacements is even more so: it's expensive, inefficient, ineffective, and kinda insane… certainly fringe, anyway.


If you were going to replace multiple limbs would you also get a cybertorso? If you were going to get enhancements over 3 would you get a cybertorso?

The skull is rare, as is a quadruple amputee. Still as a cyberskull is a shell wouldn't most people with a plate in their head have a possibility of a cyberskull instead? As per the rules which is faster to get back into action. Full limb regrowth or a cyberlimb replacement? A regrown limb takes 4 weeks plus healing time. A cyberlimb replacement takes healing time if you can buy it off the shelf. Modular cyberlimbs allow you to do exactly that. That other beauty is when they leave the service you simply give them a civilian grade limb (torso and skull being exceptions) with minimal hassle. The same cannot be said for reaction enhancers, wired reflexes, etc.

Yerameyahu
In order, my answers are: no, it's required, no, and limb?. But I don't understand the relevance of the questions. smile.gif

Is 'back in action' time a factor, and to whom? Very small militaries? I notice that you're focusing on a military 'market'; that's already a narrow market, and not exactly 'consumer'.

Why are you comparing cyberlimbs to wired reflexes?

For kicks, I'm going to throw out the non-RAW idea that, as a mere shell, there's basically nothing to optimize about skull/torso anyway. (Nothing but opinionated water-muddying, this, so feel free to ignore, hehe.)
Critias
Just out of curiosity, how often, exactly, do you think folks lose both arms, both legs, their spine, their face, their eyes, and their ears...but not die?
Yerameyahu
In the biz, that's an 'untapped niche market', duh! biggrin.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 24 2011, 12:56 AM) *
If you were going to replace multiple limbs would you also get a cybertorso?


Only if I had unusual needs, although I guess you could argue that "unusual needs" is part of the "I want multiple cyberlimbs" package to begin with. Still, from a purely mechanical/practical point of view I must say that you don't really need a cybertorso to support good stats in cyberlimbs between customization and cyberlimb mods even if said mods are capped at "only" rating 3. So it's quite easy to meet or exceed the kind of stats most unaugmented humans are walking around with sans cybertorso. I guess you could make the argument that such a setup might be considered less strong than what a really burly augmented troll is used to, but well, they're trolls, and the feats they're capable of isn't really necessary for having a good quality of life either. So, yeah, the megacorps like to leave no market unturned, but currently trolls still face markups and the like to get a hold of gear that is "unusual," so I find it a bit unlikely that there's cyberlimb suite that was developed in part to cater to the needs of wounded trolls who miss being able to flip small vehicles for kicks.

Anyway, with that said, I could easily be talked into a two full cyberlegs suite, given that things like raptor legs and the like don't work at all if you don't have both lower limbs replaced, and I can easily imagine scenarios where you severely damage both legs at the same time. Developing legs to work as a matched set with a minimum of redundant stuff hits me as fairly sensible, in that case. Just don't expect to get optimized/customized legs with that bonus. I'd probably go so far as to allow modularity but that'd be it.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 23 2011, 11:10 PM) *
In order, my answers are: no, it's required, no, and limb?. But I don't understand the relevance of the questions. smile.gif

Is 'back in action' time a factor, and to whom? Very small militaries? I notice that you're focusing on a military 'market'; that's already a narrow market, and not exactly 'consumer'.

Why are you comparing cyberlimbs to wired reflexes?

For kicks, I'm going to throw out the non-RAW idea that, as a mere shell, there's basically nothing to optimize about skull/torso anyway. (Nothing but opinionated water-muddying, this, so feel free to ignore, hehe.)


Example robocop where the head and torso were shells. You still have internal organs, but they serve as connectors to the limbs so they don't rip your meat body apart. The skull and body still have sensors for touch and feel so optimizing is the difference between some feeling and a lot of feeling where there were once nerves.

Take the example of the Urban Kshatriya as having a similar or smaller market. The military, law enforcement, etc is a very large niche market, which is not narrow considering on average you have 1% of the total population in law enforcement, military, etc. Corporations and governments care about having the guy come back to work ASAP so they don't have to retrain a new guy.

Comparison was for licensing.

I never mentioned the loss of a spine. Loss of hearing and eyesight is fairly common in combat situations, fires or explosions. I know of one incident in Panama where an RPG flew through an APC sucking out the air causing the loss of sight and rupturing of ear drums without an explosion. Loss of quadruple limbs is rare, but they can definitely get torn to shreds along with the body and survive. You can also include damages from severe falls or crushing impacts. I know of one guy who was crushed by a falling concrete on a construction project. The caused all sort of issues with his limbs, head and body. He survived.

Why would one get a cybertorso because a starting character can start with a 3(7) attribute in body, strength and/or agility for their cyberlimbs fairly cheaply.

Udoshi
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jan 23 2011, 08:27 PM) *
Lets see cybereyes, ears and skull makes sense. The fully body replacement makes sense if you want any enhancement over 3 for the limbs. So it seems the limbs and body work well together. The head, eyes and ears work well together. Not too much of a stretch to combine head with the torso.


I wouldthink that Skull/Eyes/Head would likely be one suite, probably with a commlink and datajack in theskull.
Torso and two Limbs would be another suite - since you need a torso to use >3 limb Enhancements, and arms come in pairs, it makes sense they'd be paired up in a matching suite.

Dunno about the legs.
Mardrax
Why do people keep bringing up > 3 limb enhancements while 3 is the average worldwide for metahumans? Doesn't that say anything higher is going to be a niche market? Trolls are too small a market share to even consider. Orks will be written off for the jobs they're doing if they need high strength, since they're bound to be low paying jobs, where no one's willing to foot the bill.

We're moving more and more to a Bioware prevalent world too. If they can afford it, burn victims will pretty much always opt for the skin graft. Initial cost may be a bit higher, but subsequent maintenance costs are nil. Plus it is, looks and feels more natural.

Plus, skull fractures where the working of the inner ear are damaged really aren't that common. Brain damage is a lot more common, but implants aren't fixing that.

A .3% global incidence rating isn't enough to type a common affliction.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jan 24 2011, 12:02 AM) *
Why do people keep bringing up > 3 limb enhancements while 3 is the average worldwide for metahumans? Doesn't that say anything higher is going to be a niche market?


Because rules for cyberlimbs and average human potential have nothing to do with each other.

Cyberlimbs -start- at rating 3. They easily go up to 6 with money, for cheap, and to 9 with enhancements.
With a cybertorso, a limb goes from 3 to 9 for under a thousand nuyen. (you HAVE to have a cybertorso to use rating 6 enhancements)

average kind of goes out the window when you start considering the ramifications of cheap, affordable augmentation.
Saint Sithney
So you're Universal Omnitech.

You make CYBER like whoa.

You make cyber arms.
You make cyber legs.
You make cyber torsos.
And you make cyber skulls.

But you don't make them work well together!
Oh, hell no! That would be ridiculous!

There's no market for cybertorsos that connect perfectly to the cyberlegs you designed! If someone has one of your cybertorsos there's absolutely no reason for them not to have their full compliment of normal limbs!
And there's no market for cyberskulls that are designed to work efficiently with your torsos either! What are the chances that someone had such severe trauma that they needed to get their entire skull replaced, AND they were injured on another part of their body? It sure sounds like a stand-alone unit to me!


Feh! Double feh!
Any torso-limb combination is pure suite.

Also cyberskulls should be able to use capacity slots for cybereyes and ears. It would make them less of a huge waste.
Whipstitch
Things work fine whether or not they're part of a suite, so that's a bit of a red herring. Fluff wise, a cyber suite is about eliminating redundancy and taking things form stand alone models to more streamlined versions that likely wouldn't even necessarily have full functionality when separated from the other parts. Meanwhile, cyberlimbs apparently come in all kinds of different models fitted for all sorts of different people and have all kinds of different modular attachments available. You can have a fraggin' hydraulic press hand, for god's sake. So I have some sympathy for the idea that there should be cyberlimb suites and such, but I don't think just any combination will qualify. With that said, I do think cyberlimb suites are less implausible than say, the explanation behind the cyberlogician series, and that thing is already canon.

Also, I find it your post kinda funny 'cuz I've got a few plates in my head and other than the head injury I didn't even get so much as a boo-boo in the crash.
Mardrax
Speaking from medical experience, severe skull trauma is indeed usually isolated, coupled with spinal trauma in most cases where it isn't. The latter isn't going to be fixed by cyber.

Also, keep in mind that a cyberskull replaces the skull. The bone. Those parts which have ossified. It's a shell. Doesn't hold anything in itself. Every organ inside the head is a completely separate system. I'd in fact be surprised if the lower jaw was replaced by default. Replacing more tissue always increases the risk of complication, after all. Implanting a mic into it, sure. Replacing the inner ear or the eyes? No. This costs youv extra essence, because it's more invasive.

And I'm not saying cyberlimbs+torso couldn't be a suite, in fact usual prosthetics we use use nowadays tend to replace the proximal end (torso side) of the joint as well. In case of cyber, it would only make sense to take the cyber a bit further than the first joint and replace the entire pelvic half/shoulder.
Torsos, however, are a completely different ballgame.
While indeed attribute enhancements are relatively cheap, you're missing the point that increased physical capacity is almost completely irrelevant to the well to do citizens of the 6th world, who do 99% of their work via matrix, or talking, and don't have to do so much as liftt a vaccuum cleaner in their daily lives.
The reason why stock cyberlimbs are made to attributes of 3 isn't because that's the average persons stats. It's because it all most people will ever need. On a sidenote, if the average person would need more, it would be reflected in the average person's attributes. Or those features of society would crumble.

And those underpaid lower classes who could benefit from those two points of extra strength? "Well I'm sorry sir, but there's a veritable army of SINless absolutely thrilled about the prospect of taking up your underpaid job. Your medical insurance will cover minimum treatment, and you'll be paid your wages during your recuperation time. After that, we're terribly sorry but we're going to have to let you go."

Medical insurance companies, which pay for most accident related treatment, have a bottom line to think of. If it'sv costing them more to fix you up than they'll benefit by doing so, they're going to find some reason to minimise or deny treatment. Minimise means stock treatment. Stock treament means limbs capped at 3. The term stock implies that anything other is custom, and hence a niche product.

Shadowrunners, military and elite security aren't a big market in any measure. And those are the only ones who are both interested in, and could afford to pay for the kind of stuff you're talking about.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 24 2011, 09:54 AM) *
Because rules for cyberlimbs and average human potential have nothing to do with each other.


Why yes. Yes they do. Average metahuman capacity (not potential) reflects the demands society imposes on the average metahuman. The stock capacity of any implement whatsoever reflects a function of the capacity the average user will expect of the implement, and affordability/attainability of the technology.
Expectations the average user will have of a in implement are also based on how commonplace the tech in question is, but mostly, to what use he'll be putting the implement.

Simple example: today's average computer user will not either a T1 internet line, or a 512 mb GPU. They need a line capable of browsing the internet with comfortable ammounts of waiting, where latency is often more important than bandwith, and a GPU that can render M$ Word files. So that's what most PC building companies deliver, and that's why other companies can place bulk orders for those. You can have your reasonably affordable previous gen 512 mb GPU, but it's still a niche product.
Fatum
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 24 2011, 10:59 AM) *
Any torso-limb combination is pure suite.

Designing a cybersuite is a massive amount of work, so it only pays if the result is popular. When you have five limbs and a torso, each of a dozen models, there's quite a number of unique combinations you can arrange of those. Saying that a corp will make a suite out of each is borderline ridiculous. From the ridiculous side.
Yerameyahu
Indeed. Let's recap: suites require a real market, and a *specific* preset combination of 'ware. That rules out 6-limb, 5-limb… it even rules out 2-leg + torso, because they could be literally 8 different kinds of legs. It also rules out skull + eyes + ears, because it's a cyberskull. 'Nuff said.

Unless, as the OP seems to, you wanted just boring (and suboptimal) modular legs. The least unplausible suggestion so far is torso + 2-modular-legs. Regardless, it's a far cry from that to 6-limb + eyes + ears.

Aside: more opinionated non-RAW theme questions. Why would modular legs need/support the torso's purpose (enhancements), and would modular limbs even be optimizable in the first place? Would you have to get your modules from the same company, possibly even in a single giant bundle?
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 24 2011, 09:18 AM) *
Indeed. Let's recap: suites require a real market, and a *specific* preset combination of 'ware. That rules out 6-limb, 5-limb… it even rules out 2-leg + torso, because they could be literally 8 different kinds of legs. It also rules out skull + eyes + ears, because it's a cyberskull. 'Nuff said.

Unless, as the OP seems to, you wanted just boring (and suboptimal) modular legs. The least unplausible suggestion so far is torso + 2-modular-legs. Regardless, it's a far cry from that to 6-limb + eyes + ears.

Aside: more opinionated non-RAW theme questions. Why would modular legs need/support the torso's purpose (enhancements), and would modular limbs even be optimizable in the first place? Would you have to get your modules from the same company, possibly even in a single giant bundle?


8 different kinds of legs? You have orc, dwarf, troll, elf and human as the base. As alphaware is off the shelf so it means you can go to your local chop shop to get a cyberlimb/torso suite. You are bringing in the idea that having a legally available and commonly purchased limbs in no way interests any group into going mostly or heavily cyber. That seems to be a fallacy of logic. You have groups such as construction and military where strength, body, and agility are highly useful. Include armor that adds with body armor and in the case of your soldier you have a cheaply tough soldier in a faster time than you would have of getting an ideal physical specimen It also allows you to get by the usual physical exams if the applicant is willing to undergo limb replacement. You include modular cyberlimbs you expand your market where instead of the usual sale of a limb and the customer goes away, you can now interest them into accessories such as customized looks and different functionalities.

Our construction worker has numerous construction options. Armor to protect from fire, falling objects, etc. He has the torso, arms and legs. The head is a bit extreme, but he may also want to incorporate the eyes and ears as a package deal. Hydraulic jacks so he can jump down from a 3 story building (OSHA currently requires panelling to stop falls every 3 stories). He gets body and strength to carry more weight. Agility if he climbs regularly or does delicate work. Now our worker likes to weld he just fits a different hand with a laser weld. The job is over and he goes to break up some concrete. He replaces the limbs with jackhammers. Job is over and he uses the telescoping arms to stock shelves. Now if his employer provides the modular limbs than he simply retrieves his normal limbs at the end of the day to go home. He goes home and decides he wants to be at a rave. He puts on his slick raptor legs and his cyberlimb case mods.

Now does this mean the majority can afford this of course not, but from an advertising/word of mouth it gets people to look at your less expensive options such as the cybersuite torso+arms, or torso and legs, etc. Lets say you sell 500-1000 full cybersuites. You sell approximately several thousand body+ 4 limbs suites, and the even more torso +2 limb suites. You can recoup the expense of optimization research fairly quickly. You are doing about as well as most luxury brands of cars.


Whipstitch
It's your game, so you don't have to sell us on these ideas, really. But if you did want to sell me on the idea, I'd say you're going about it somewhat backwards. You don't have to sell me on why individual pieces of 'ware might be useful. You have to sell me on why the developers of said pieces of 'ware should start thinking of this 'ware as stuff that should be developed together as one system when they can already be doled out piecemeal and work fine. I mean, really, to me the strongest argument for a cyberlimb suite is that implanting several limbs is tough on the recipient's health--particularly if they already have implants-- and thus the labs might work on the idea simply so that the process is viable at all in the most extreme cases.

Anyway, I also have a tough time buying into the idea that the military would be all gung-ho about multi-cyberlimb installations as a general use augmentation when there's all sorts of alternatives available. For one thing, cyberpsychosis is a canon in-game phenomena, after all, and the military has a rough enough time filtering out head cases without installing cyberlimbs everywhere. Likewise, the exercises they do are as much about being mentally sharp and disciplined as they are about being fit. If they just wanted you to have killer abs they'd hire Jillian Michaels instead of making you run the Darby Queen again, so I'd expect them to put you through your paces whether or not they set you up with muscle replacements. This probably isn't the thread for that conversation though. "How much does the military like cyberware?" is a subject that's been beaten half to death in a number of threads here on dumpshock, and people have covered just about any stance you care to name on the topic.
Mardrax
Point A: I don't see much use for metahuman construction workers in the 6th world, except as cheap labour, which is what basically disposable, low social strata orcs are for. They come in droves, and complain little as the jobpool is small, with a high potential workforce. Beside that, most have a large ammount of children and a wife to feed. These poeople will not have the money to spend on frivolously buying a set of raptor legs, let a lone a casemod. In fact, these people will have barely enough money to spend on frivolously buying a soycaf.
For the same price as two cyberlimbs+torso, you can get a perfectly fine drone to do the job 24/7, come high wind or water, at 30 stories up, without a safety harness, without needing such silly things as salary paid, or this preposterous idea that's gotten into the heads of anyone with an education that they call job benefits. All you really need is to pay the worksite rigger an hour extra every month to keep maintenance up on the drones that maintain the drones.

Let's look at a pricetag here, everything standard grade and obvious:

[ Spoiler ]


Day Job Quality tells us 40 hours of work weekly is worth 5000 nuyen.gif a month, but this isn't assuming the enerally underpaid status most construction workers have. Assuming the company proceeds to take a monthly cut of of 10% out of the worker's (ridiculously large) paycheck, we're talking 21.6 years to earn that investment back. Assuming a 5% annual RoI brings that down a bit.The average orc wil be venerable by the time they hit 50.
How many companies would think this a workable idea? To how many people would it apply?
How many specialised drones could one acquire with that kind if money? Would this be more profitable?
Would the decision to acquire this for a multitude of employees be good for the bottom line at all? Would smaller corps even have the investment room to buy more than one or two?
If a whole lot of companies don't answer very positive answers to the above, having a suite developped is off.

Military personel have very little use for enhanced attributes or any of the various cyberlimb modifications. The bulk of military personel are infantrymen, who will have have most of their gear carried by vehicles, or drones specially built for the purpose, like we're seeing in use today in increasing ammounts. Only special forces would benefit some, but those are few and far between, and will have little expenses spared for gear. Still though, plastic weaponry and caseless ammo take down gear weight a lot. Cyberlimbs would be a liability more than anything else as well, especially for those who spend long enough in the field to have to forego regular checkups. You can fix tired muscles, you can't fix an overexerted servo.

Also, ad nauseam, Luxury = niche != suite.

Of course, it's your game. Just know that it makes very little sense to allow from an economical standpoint. If you want to go for a bit more high powered game though, go right ahead.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Jan 24 2011, 06:40 PM) *
It's your game, so you don't have to sell us on these ideas, really. But if you did want to sell me on the idea, I'd say you're going about it somewhat backwards. You don't have to sell me on why individual pieces of 'ware might be useful. You have to sell me on why the developers of said pieces of 'ware should start thinking of this 'ware as stuff that should be developed together as one system when they can already be doled out piecemeal and work fine. I mean, really, to me the strongest argument for a cyberlimb suite is that implanting several limbs is tough on the recipient's health--particularly if they already have implants-- and thus the labs might work on the idea simply so that the process is viable at all in the most extreme cases.

Anyway, I also have a tough time buying into the idea that the military would be all gung-ho about multi-cyberlimb installations as a general use augmentation when there's all sorts of alternatives available. For one thing, cyberpsychosis is a canon in-game phenomena, after all, and the military has a rough enough time filtering out head cases without installing cyberlimbs everywhere. Likewise, the exercises they do are as much about being mentally sharp and disciplined as they are about being fit. If they just wanted you to have killer abs they'd hire Jillian Michaels instead of making you run the Darby Queen again, so I'd expect them to put you through your paces whether or not they set you up with muscle replacements. This probably isn't the thread for that conversation though. "How much does the military like cyberware?" is a subject that's been beaten half to death in a number of threads here on dumpshock, and people have covered just about any stance you care to name on the topic.


I think the problem is people assume the military forces you to take cyberware. The reality is people probably join with the understanding that their enlistment will allow them to get cyberware. That might be part of your reenlistment bonus. As for traumatic injury they will probably do multilimb replacement and a cybertorso addition is not unreasonable. If you had expressed a desire for cyberware before then they may reward a heroic action with full replacement. We also cannot assume "1st world militaries" are always what we mean when we say military. Warlords and gangster may get them for the shear intimidation factor or to terror squads. Would I expect special forces to get a full replacement I don't think so. I do think that your frontline sergeant or captain may get them due to heavy scars and wounds over the years. Heavy military armor, a high body, high agility and high strength makes this a frightening frontline force. Much like when one reads starship troopers and the recruiter has no arms or legs. When he leaves the office he puts them on. Special forces would favor bioware and higher grades so they can blend into the populace and assensing has less affect.

You are right if you are going for a full replacement it has to be alphaware and a suite makes the most sense so they can add more ware. At the end of the day Corps want to make a profit and by the ability to sell more ware the greater their profit. Modular cyberlimbs fit into that bill as it is not invasive, but it definitely allows you to have repeat customers. The limbs can be fashion accessories. Lower essense cost means they can sell you extra ware and the addition of capacity pads their profits even more. Now if you include maintenance costs (1% per month) then the more you are able to add for perpetual profits. Again you don't have to sell everything, but if you sell a few hundred a year of full replacement, and then several partial replacements you make up for your research cost.
Yerameyahu
I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the idea that military cyberware is things like Wires, not limbs. If they wanted a drone, they'd just get a drone, not cut off all of a man's limbs, or wait for random chance to do it for them. smile.gif The fact is that 5-limb sets are vanishingly rare, and 6-limbs are even more so. A *small* factor in that is the huge Essence cost, which 10% doesn't really alter.

In Starship Troopers, he didn't have the option of clonal limbs.

I think you're vastly underestimating the cost of suite development, which presumably only increases as you add more bits.

You're arguing that modular limbs are good, not that a suite with them is good. Modular limbs already exist, addressing all your benefits.

Let me also echo Whipstich: you can do anything you want in your game, and I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. smile.gif I'm just arguing that, to my best understanding of the setting, your rationalizations don't jive for me.
Whipstitch
I don't think modular cyberlimbs are even all that good, to be honest. A jackhammer hand doesn't have many (hell, if any) advantages over just having a jackhammer around that I can think of. Meanwhile, I use my hands pretty often. I mean, if the attachments popped out of hammer space, that'd be one thing, but they don't. As long as that is the case I'd rather have some kind of fix it drone around with its own expert system. Worst case scenario they can hand you a spanner without requiring major surgery or getting in the way of unbuttoning your fly. Actually, there's another idea I like better than modular cyberlimbs: Smart Zippers.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Jan 24 2011, 07:57 PM) *
Point A: I don't see much use for metahuman construction workers in the 6th world, except as cheap labour, which is what basically disposable, low social strata orcs are for. They come in droves, and complain little as the jobpool is small, with a high potential workforce. Beside that, most have a large ammount of children and a wife to feed. These poeople will not have the money to spend on frivolously buying a set of raptor legs, let a lone a casemod. In fact, these people will have barely enough money to spend on frivolously buying a soycaf.
For the same price as two cyberlimbs+torso, you can get a perfectly fine drone to do the job 24/7, come high wind or water, at 30 stories up, without a safety harness, without needing such silly things as salary paid, or this preposterous idea that's gotten into the heads of anyone with an education that they call job benefits. All you really need is to pay the worksite rigger an hour extra every month to keep maintenance up on the drones that maintain the drones.

Let's look at a pricetag here, everything standard grade and obvious:

[ Spoiler ]


Day Job Quality tells us 40 hours of work weekly is worth 5000 nuyen.gif a month, but this isn't assuming the enerally underpaid status most construction workers have. Assuming the company proceeds to take a monthly cut of of 10% out of the worker's (ridiculously large) paycheck, we're talking 21.6 years to earn that investment back. Assuming a 5% annual RoI brings that down a bit.The average orc wil be venerable by the time they hit 50.
How many companies would think this a workable idea? To how many people would it apply?
How many specialised drones could one acquire with that kind if money? Would this be more profitable?
Would the decision to acquire this for a multitude of employees be good for the bottom line at all? Would smaller corps even have the investment room to buy more than one or two?
If a whole lot of companies don't answer very positive answers to the above, having a suite developped is off.

Military personel have very little use for enhanced attributes or any of the various cyberlimb modifications. The bulk of military personel are infantrymen, who will have have most of their gear carried by vehicles, or drones specially built for the purpose, like we're seeing in use today in increasing ammounts. Only special forces would benefit some, but those are few and far between, and will have little expenses spared for gear. Still though, plastic weaponry and caseless ammo take down gear weight a lot. Cyberlimbs would be a liability more than anything else as well, especially for those who spend long enough in the field to have to forego regular checkups. You can fix tired muscles, you can't fix an overexerted servo.

Also, ad nauseam, Luxury = niche != suite.

Of course, it's your game. Just know that it makes very little sense to allow from an economical standpoint. If you want to go for a bit more high powered game though, go right ahead.


Truthfully most of the jobs can be replaced by drones. This can be soldiers to sales people.

The ability to increase armor, agility, strength and body is quite useful. Include this with the military armors and it makes sense for the military to explore the idea. If you are a warlord it is an excellent way to form terror squads and prevent mutinies if your elite require monthly maintenance else their ware shuts down. Again if you assume 1000 people on the planet get the suites then you are turning a profit very quickly for this much ware and building a market. If it works for brandname and gets people to buy suites from you then it is an advertising boon.

You seem to confuse construction workers from laborers. One is skilled and the other is not. Been on both sides and it is easy to tell the difference in respect given and pay.
Yerameyahu
Again back at ya, it's unreasonable to assume selling a thousand units would return a profit, and I just still can't believe that any amount of advertising will encourage 6-limb replacement in an age where cyber's 'brand' is declining, and drones are vastly cheaper. Prevent a mutiny by having your terror squad made of obedient robots, controlled by a handful of riggers. smile.gif Ditto for those skilled construction workers.
Whipstitch
Agreed, you can't just assume 1,000 customers justifies the costs. Suites aren't new products, rather they're generally collections of already popular products bundled together and the corps actually charge less for them. Which is kinda weird considering that alphaware straight up costs you double for having a lower essence cost, something that frankly only matters to samurai and the awakened anyway and not Joe Blow on the streets. With suites they're presumably saving money on some parts or something in much the same way component manufacturers can save money with combo boards, but frankly that's just conjecture. It's pretend economics of scale in a pretend game in the pretend future. We just can't know. Not with what little information we have, at any rate.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 24 2011, 08:53 PM) *
I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the idea that military cyberware is things like Wires, not limbs. If they wanted a drone, they'd just get a drone, not cut off all of a man's limbs, or wait for random chance to do it for them. smile.gif The fact is that 5-limb sets are vanishingly rare, and 6-limbs are even more so. A *small* factor in that is the huge Essence cost, which 10% doesn't really alter.

In Starship Troopers, he didn't have the option of clonal limbs.

I think you're vastly underestimating the cost of suite development, which presumably only increases as you add more bits.

You're arguing that modular limbs are good, not that a suite with them is good. Modular limbs already exist, addressing all your benefits.

Let me also echo Whipstich: you can do anything you want in your game, and I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. smile.gif I'm just arguing that, to my best understanding of the setting, your rationalizations don't jive for me.


I have not argued the point, but you have never addressed the profit aspect. Lets say you make 25% off each suite. Lets say suite investment is 200 million nuyen. How many can you expect to sell per year? Now lets say you only sell a few per year does that research into full cyberlimb replacement translate into partial replacement suites? So you sell a 500 five or six body part replacements per year. Profit about 40k per replacement. 20 Million per year of major replacement. Now how many 2, 3, 4 limb replacements are you making that benefitted from similar research? Several thousand. Again now you are making 5000-20000 per sale. So we are well over the 50-60 million Nuyen per year. Then lets include having modular cyberlimbs as the suite. These are assumed to be part of the suite and are paid during the install. You are not paying extra essence or trying to redo the entire limb as it already has the universal connector at the lower joint. You do not replace the whole arm in the suite, but you can swap out your hand and forearm as you please with no impact on the suite. You are however opening up the market to sell more lower limbs vastly increasing your profitability and sales. So you make a profit after 3-5 years. I view that as a good investment.

Now this assumes you have no competition. If there is competition then it cuts into profit margins, etc. Then again if there is competition for cyberlimb suites than you have invalidated your whole argument of why corporations would not produce it.
Yerameyahu
I do see what you're saying, but it still rings wrong to me. :/

I'm not going to even speculate at real numbers, because I'm in no way qualified. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the cyberlimb market is both well-established and in direct competition (even within the same company) with a new suite, and that essentially no one wants 6-limb sets. I also believe that the profit margins are *much* smaller than 25% in what's practically a commodity market, and that suite development is a truly huge investment. I'm not even going to speculate at running costs of advertising, training, wages, etc. etc., that are subtracted before anything ever becomes 'profit'.

I don't think you can assume that you're developing 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, *and* 6-limb suites at once. A suite is a suite; maybe you have 2 nearly-identical versions, and then maybe an alphaware version for each of those.

Further, I'm pretty sure you're in shaky rules territory to be swapping modular bits from a finely-tuned suite, unless they're *all* finely-tuned suite bits… which brings us back to my '8 kinds of limbs' point (admittedly low-balling it, of course). I've already mentioned that it sounds pretty fishy to even combine the concepts of 'finely-tuned suite' with 'modular limbs' in the first place, right?
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 24 2011, 10:19 PM) *
I do see what you're saying, but it still rings wrong to me. :/

I'm not going to even speculate at real numbers, because I'm in no way qualified. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the cyberlimb market is both well-established and in direct competition (even within the same company) with a new suite, and that essentially no one wants 6-limb sets. I also believe that the profit margins are *much* smaller than 25% in what's practically a commodity market, and that suite development is a truly huge investment. I'm not even going to speculate at running costs of advertising, training, wages, etc. etc., that are subtracted before anything ever becomes 'profit'.

I don't think you can assume that you're developing 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, *and* 6-limb suites at once. A suite is a suite; maybe you have 2 nearly-identical versions, and then maybe an alphaware version for each of those.

Further, I'm pretty sure you're in shaky rules territory to be swapping modular bits from a finely-tuned suite, unless they're *all* finely-tuned suite bits… which brings us back to my '8 kinds of limbs' point (admittedly low-balling it, of course). I've already mentioned that it sounds pretty fishy to even combine the concepts of 'finely-tuned suite' with 'modular limbs' in the first place, right?


You payed for the limb in the suite. I think you are arguing the point that buying an modular arm costs essence and then swapping with a different hand would cost more essence. That doesn't sound right either. I do think though the limbs/attachments would cost full price rather than discounted, but that is purely subjective. I do agree though that the grades would have to be identical so you can't cheap out.

And you are right in a commoditized market profit margins are lower, but suites are not commoditized unless you concede the point that is where everyone is fighting for major limb replacement suites market. You are also saying that research at a high level would not translate to research at a low level. There maybe some extra cost associated with lesser replacement, but nowhere as much as the initial cost for a full replacement. You are probably looking at a percentage of 5-10% per suite. We are still in the profitability range of 4-6 years. If you are heavily invested in cyberware then suites are a way to maintain market share over bioware due to the cheaper cost and you expanded ware that can be installed.
Yerameyahu
That's my point, though: the fluff of how suites work doesn't really jive with modularity, to me. I'm *not* arguing that it costs more Essence later, but that it maybe shouldn't work in the first place.

I'm saying that a suite of cyberlimbs competes directly against non-suites of cyberlimbs; it's not a separate or new market.

As far as I understand suite development, you *can't* make a suite of 12 things, and assume that you'll get any special benefit for any combination of fewer than those 12 things. The suite is a suite. I agree that it would greatly alter the picture if that *weren't* true, but AFAIK it is. frown.gif

Now, granted that the rules are not as complete or clear as we would like. After all, what happens when you remove part of a suite? Nothing like you'd expect if the suite really were a single unit, even though the fluff implies that's how it gets the 10% discount. Bleh. Anyway, that's what this whole discussion is about: fluff mismatch. RAW, suites work fine with basically anything. smile.gif I also agree with Whipstitch that it never made sense for a suite to also cost less, or even the same, as non-discounted 'ware… unless the rules *did* impose tradeoffs, such as 'all one unit' (like program suites), etc.

Just for kicks, here's another wild factor: money invested in optimizing a 'dying' tech (cyberlimbs) for possible minor profit is money *not* invested in geneware, bio, nano, etc. Opportunity cost is vicious.
Mardrax
OYou're arguing 25% profit margin? For the producer of a product? Not the distributor, wholesaler or installer. The producer. You do realise that if anything would even approach that, Johnsons would be sending out runners in droves. The R&D department would be out of staff and data soon.

You do also realise that an alphaware 6 limb suite would be tantamount to buying a low end Ferrarri, or in game terms, two and a half WW3Ks. Would the military go through that ammount of money to reward someone? Would a gang or warlord even have the money to invest in one, let alone a squad? You do realise that for a mere 15% of the cost, you'd have a suit of heavy milspec full body armor. And even that still is 6 times the complete monthly salary of a middle lifestyle wageslave. A military would have this money to spend. Perhaps. A construction company? Don't think so. If those are going to be cybering employees, it'll be skillwires. Unless someone would be willing to go for the sheer awesome of pirate style jackhammer peg legs. Fantasy realism makes way for pink mohawk. nyahnyah.gif

Also, any labour that doesn't require adaptibility in mobility, functionality and decision making can be left up to drones. Military personel is excluded there, for a large part. Construction personel most assuredly isn't. Ditto for dockworkers and the like. That's why he former would be treated with a modicum of respect and care, and the latter only as long as they're more cost effective than drones.

Sengir
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 24 2011, 01:51 AM) *
By RAW its not really clear but the essence cost of the various suites in aug are calculated as a series of reductions, in this case its the essence cost*0,9*0,8*0,8*0,9 = the final essence cost.
Augmentation errata supposedly(according to multiple devs, including the former line developer) clarifies that your add up all the reductions together first(just like the reductions to initiation and submersion costs) and changes the suites cost to match that.
But sadly that errate is still unrealeased outside of germany frown.gif

Not quite. The German Bodytech (aka Augmentation, how I hate those English-to-English "translations") says that the Essence cost modifier for suites should be added, everything else (including the cost modifier for suites) is still multiplied.
And frankly, using correct math all the time except in one special instance makes absolutely no sense, so just use correct math all the way. Getting another 50% off during a half-price sale does not mean you get something for free.
Mäx
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jan 25 2011, 02:00 PM) *
And frankly, using correct math all the time except in one special instance makes absolutely no sense, so just use correct math all the way.

Well thats not really the case here, as my post said the 2 % discounts we're given rules for handling(initiation and submersion) both tell you to add the 10% discounts together for a 20% discount.
Sengir
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 25 2011, 01:19 PM) *
Well thats not really the case here, as my post said the 2 % discounts we're given rules for handling(initiation and submersion) both tell you to add the 10% discounts together for a 20% discount.

OK, so there are two parts where math fails...
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 24 2011, 06:58 AM) *
Designing a cybersuite is a massive amount of work, so it only pays if the result is popular. When you have five limbs and a torso, each of a dozen models, there's quite a number of unique combinations you can arrange of those. Saying that a corp will make a suite out of each is borderline ridiculous. From the ridiculous side.



You're Apple.

You make hardware and you want people to use your specific hardware.
How do you encourage customers to buy your hardware specifically?

You make sure that your hardware works together effeicently and automatically.
If you don't then that's a potential sale lost to the competition.

It's not particularly difficult to craft a leg or arm joint to fit into your cybertorso rather than just attacking to the bone.
The level of customization hardly requires more than a slight consideration during development. It's not like it needs to be completely redesigned.

For the sake of argument, look at the example suites. A bunch of slightly related parts made by different manufacturers. How is that "designed from the ground up to eliminate redundancies?" It's more like some chopshop decided to make a package deal for people who like crappy ware.
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