Full Version: Can the spell control thought effect spirits?
| QUOTE |
| I too would say that a spirit who has had its number of services used-up will return to its home plane even if it is being affected by control thoughts. |
Say an elemental has been bound to patrol an area for a year. A projecting mage wants into the patrolled area. He casts Control Actions or CT and orders the elemental to do stuff until its services are used up and the spirit departs.
I would rule that will not work. The elemental is magically bound, he may WANT to do other things, he may have the urge to do other things, he may have thoughts about other things, but he cannot do other things. He literally has to obey his service until it's done. In that instance that the elemental is thinking is irrelevant, he's bound to complete his task and can do nothing else. I would say that is the case for all bound elemetals. Freee spirits are another matter.
| QUOTE |
| Say an elemental has been bound to patrol an area for a year. A projecting mage wants into the patrolled area. He casts Control Actions or CT and orders the elemental to do stuff until its services are used up and the spirit departs. |
Wouldn't work. The spirit doesn't owe anyone any services; it's simply bound to a task. Since it's not bound to you, it doesn't count against a mage's limit, and it can't provide things like Aid Sorcery. You'd need to bind it via conjuring again. (Which is one very evil way of keeping high-force elementals for cheap-- summon one, use up all but one of its services, then bind it to a place for 364 days. Then, come back, capture it with conjuring again, and rebind it.)
A shaman using Control Thoughts on a spirit that he has summoned would be messing around with his Totem, and would probably, at the least, lose a Magic point and have to perform some kind of atonement or quest to get it back.
A hermetic trying such a stunt would make little sense, since it is easier to merely do another conjuring test to extend its services (under EXTENDING ELEMENTAL SERVICES, pg. 98 of MITS).
Control Thoughts is actually a poor spell to try and sustain with a focus. Any time you are not there, the spirit only needs a single success to break free (Mindlink may let you control a spirit out of LOS as if you were present, but only up to the range of the spell).
That's assuming you allow such a spell to work on a spirit at all. Free spirits are on thing, but summoned spirits may or may not have free will in the first place - they are bound to obey their summoners, and their "thoughts" may have little to do with it. I would probably use this rationale to restrict control thoughts to things like free spirits. I don't like sorcery cutting into conjuring territory, and I don't like the prospect of a hermetic sorcerer being able to command a nature spirit (or a shaman command an elemental).
A hermetic trying such a stunt would make little sense, since it is easier to merely do another conjuring test to extend its services (under EXTENDING ELEMENTAL SERVICES, pg. 98 of MITS).
Control Thoughts is actually a poor spell to try and sustain with a focus. Any time you are not there, the spirit only needs a single success to break free (Mindlink may let you control a spirit out of LOS as if you were present, but only up to the range of the spell).
That's assuming you allow such a spell to work on a spirit at all. Free spirits are on thing, but summoned spirits may or may not have free will in the first place - they are bound to obey their summoners, and their "thoughts" may have little to do with it. I would probably use this rationale to restrict control thoughts to things like free spirits. I don't like sorcery cutting into conjuring territory, and I don't like the prospect of a hermetic sorcerer being able to command a nature spirit (or a shaman command an elemental).
I was under the impression that extending an elemental's services would require another ritual, which would mean that the mage needs to invest both time and 
- a lot more of an investment than casting "Control Thoughts", it seems.
Can somebody confirm this, or am I reading the rules wrong?
- a lot more of an investment than casting "Control Thoughts", it seems. Can somebody confirm this, or am I reading the rules wrong?
I´d allow for a magican to try and use Control Thoughts on a spirit, but with a much higher TN due to them being different from metahumans in the very core of their being. However if the spirit is in the service of another magican, I think a standard Control Contest should be made.
| QUOTE (Omega Skip) |
| I was under the impression that extending an elemental's services would require another ritual, which would mean that the mage needs to invest both time and - a lot more of an investment than casting "Control Thoughts", it seems. Can somebody confirm this, or am I reading the rules wrong? |
You need a hermetic circle and a ritual, but I don't think you need the elemental summoning materials. If you did, there would be absolutely no point to the new rule whatsoever, since that would make it completely the same, cost-wise and mechanics-wise, as conjuring a brand-new elemental. So what would the point be? The rule is vaguely written, but I think that it is implied that the caster doesn't need the raw materials again.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| You need a hermetic circle and a ritual, but I don't think you need the elemental summoning materials. If you did, there would be absolutely no point to the new rule whatsoever, since that would make it completely the same, cost-wise and mechanics-wise, as conjuring a brand-new elemental. |
Nah, with this rule you keep the services the old one had. You can build up an elemental that owes you tons of services. It's not the same.
| QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 13 2004, 09:39 AM) |
| A shaman using Control Thoughts on a spirit that he has summoned would be messing around with his Totem, and would probably, at the least, lose a Magic point and have to perform some kind of atonement or quest to get it back. |
How does ordering around a spirit or even abusing a spirit (as everyone wants to conclude) conflict with totem ideals? Which ideal? Which totem? Surely not all of them.
| QUOTE |
| A hermetic trying such a stunt would make little sense, since it is easier to merely do another conjuring test to extend its services (under EXTENDING ELEMENTAL SERVICES, pg. 98 of MITS). |
I think people missed the point.
This wasn't the summoner using CT. It was an intruding magician using it to get around the atral security. Since the spirit hasn't been disrupted or killed, the summoner wouldn't know the spirit wasn't doing its job.
| QUOTE |
| You need a hermetic circle and a ritual, but I don't think you need the elemental summoning materials. If you did, there would be absolutely no point to the new rule whatsoever, since that would make it completely the same, cost-wise and mechanics-wise, as conjuring a brand-new elemental. |
It says they go through a new summoning ritual. IMO that means more materials. It does give a benefit over summoning a new spirit in some cases.
The spirit could be familiar with the task, situation or people.
The mage could be at his limit of spirits and cannot conjure additional spirits. However, he is beginning a project/run and some of his spirits are down to one service. He would like to have more services, but doesn't want to lose the service owed by dismissing the spirit and conjuring a new one.
| QUOTE (Zazen) | ||
Saying that spells are cast only on one plane or another is a sketchy interpretation that is never mentioned in the books. It also leads to some bizarre situations. |
So what if it was cated by a Dual Natured being? than it would work i'd say.
Stupid what if's.
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum) | ||||
So what if it was cated by a Dual Natured being? than it would work i'd say. Stupid what if's. |
Doesn't matter, he still has to choose what plane the spell was cast on.
If you play that way 
Even if you do, does it say anywhere in the rules that a sustained spell is broken if the target changes planes? Can a mage escape a Control spell by going astral?
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