Canon, could a vampire have existed pre-awakening? HMHVV II is a magical disease, so it would have required a spike or something to infect someone - so is there anything in canon that would permit it?

I remember people discussing that some rare and pretty local mana spikes happened during the 5th World. There could be the possibility of HMHV virii infecting people during these periods, but I don't know what would happen to them after the spike ended.

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that the antagonist of Nosferatu, an elven nosferatu, was a fairly old spike baby. Like, old as in born in the 1800's. I think he got infected around that time too, but I am not sure.

As dragons were able to sleep through the 5th world in their lairs, it is just possible that a vampire could have pulled it off as well. If I remember correctly, dragons create a type of cacoon that they sleep the low mana cycle out in. If that is right then (if the gm wanted it)it is possible that a vampire could pull it off.

The only issue would be their loss of essence unless of course the cacoon or what not stopped that as well.

I think their Air Dormancy prevents Essence Loss... if not in text then in RAI.

So possibly if the vamp was created / infected during a spike, and then went dormant, they could have survived? But not if they tried to remain active throughout all that period.

Is that an accurate assessment?

There are vampires in Shadowrun? That seems unnecessary.

Vampires are immune to aging. They could stay active indefintely. Psychological issues aside, they really shouldn't have much standing in their way to reach insane levels of power.

HMHVV however, is an awakened virus. A virus evolves. Is HMHVV the same as it was milennia ago? Are vampires now the same as then? Who knows? I find it unlikely.

There are, and they sparkle in the sunlight.

Well once you get into the territory of the novels, a number of the "spike babies" were immortal elves, and the immortal elves had turned into immortal humans during the low period.

Now vampires seem like prime candidates for having origins as horrer constructs. So they could have been around back then. And maybe they had some similar experience compared to the elves (becoming immortal humans during the down time). Or they simply went dormant and were an immortal "corpse" until the forces animating them kicked back in.

If by sparkle you mean they slowly burn, yeah, they sparkle in the sunlight.

Mardrax, it's not about being immune to aging. It's about being immune to there being no magic in the world.

If by "slowly burn" you mean "cast Alleviate Immunity," then yeah.

Why would you alleviate an immunity, silly?

It *is* a mistake to make that an allergy, sigh. Oh well.

Does a vampire die when exposed to a lack of ambient mana? If so, the 5th world's lack of mana should kill all of them, regardless of being 'spike babies'. Also if so, a vampire would not survive a trip to Zurich Orbital. RAW mentions no such thing that I'm aware of.

Can an attribute-only test be made if one of the attributes involved equals 0? If so, Essence Drain would work fine without a Magic attribute. Otherwise, all vampires would die of malnourishment in under 13 months. Again, RAW mentions no such thing that I'm aware of.

I'd love to be educated on both points though.

I don't know. That's the whole question of the thread, Mardrax. It is, however, 100% not about immunity to aging.

Derp. My fingers type silly things sometimes.
I meant Alleviate Allergy.

Immortal elves remain elves. They just wore headbands, like Spock in The Voyage Home. (They also used illusion spells, magic is harder in the down cycle but not impossible) Elves don't goblinize. They're only born elves. They can't change into humans, either. The children of IEs from around that time were human, however, and perfectly mortal.

Spike babies are babies who have Elf metagenes and were exposed to mana spikes in eutero, causing those elf genes to express. Mana is required to activate them, but once activated they remain active forever. The same is true with vampires. The infection requires mana, but once the infection changes the host those changes are permanent.

And yes, a vampire can survive in the downcycle. The novels are canon, even the insane ones that violate the rule and make no sense. Hence the Ex-Vampire Otaku Gangster Empress of Japan.

Yeah... Using Magic to simply ignore such a prime characteristic of a species doesn't fly in my games.
But that is just in my games...

"In nomine Patris et Filii.."
*waving around a sprinkler*

"Hey, I don't care about holy water!"

*drawing a Zippo*
"Who says it's water?"

Wait, what?

Except, hyzmarca, a lot of the vampire powers are… powers. I think that's why there's a question.

A long time ago daddy Shiawase decided that the best way to test his HMHVV cure was to put his one and only rebellious daughter in the same room as a hungry vampire. It worked. He's been keeping it under wraps for some inexplicable reason ever since.

Hitomi also founded a gang when she was at MIT, was transformed into an Otaku by Mirage, and recently married the Emperor of Japan.

I hate to be That Guy, but references for this?

Your games aren't RAW.
But yes. It's absolutely silly, and when I realized it I was like, "OH SHIT, SHADOWRUN HAS SPARKLY VAMPIRES, DO NOT WANT D:"

Until someone really clever casts mana static and the sparkle turns to burn.

The Vampire/HMHVV cure and Mirage Otaku parts are from the novel Psychotrope. Not sure about the gang in MIT&T thought.

And marrying the emperor of Japan has been mentioned in nearly any reference to shiawase or Japan for all of 4th edition. Think it happened just after the crash, don't have my books on me at the moment.

It happened sometime before second of april 2064, mentioned as a resent happening in Shadows of Asia and thats the dating of the Japan post in there.

Just before crash then, whoops.

Ahaha, and I thought the Secrets of Power books were bad enough, but Psychotrope sounds terrible.

And yet I love it.

Well yeah.

Confirmative
either Dormant all the way from 4th Age --->6th
or (if at all) while created under a Manaspike they should remain dormant too until the return of Magic in 2011.
the only ones active in the 5th Age were the Handfull of Immortal Elves


HMHVV came into existence only since 2011
so there was no HMHVV (and thus no Ghouls,Vampires,Dzoo-no-Qua,etc) a Millenium ago

with an immortal Dance
Medicineman

Neraph, the quote you posted bears no relation to the question wether a vampire can use his Drain Essence power, which takes a dicepool of Charisma + Magic, while Magic is 0. In other words: can an attribute only test be made when one of the attributes equals 0?

A reference for this?
If there is a canon reference to this, is there any rule in SR4 to back it up?

I'm still trying to get my head around this. There are vampires in Shadowrun? Whose brilliant idea was that? There's a game for those, you know.

Next thing you'll be telling me there are werewolves in Shadowrun.

a Reference for what ?
Immortal Elves ?
they've been around since SR2 (to promote the connection between Earthdawn and SR)
or Dormancy ?
Well the 5th Age had no Magic
and so there couldn't exist anything magical
The first official Manaspikes where from the Beginning of the 20th Century.The first official Spike Baby was the Irish elf that changed Ireland to Tir Na Nog.
So IF you presume that there was this Manaspile and that it caused spontanious HMHVV and that it
transformed someone to a Vampire (without a Carrier....Its like the Alien Eggs in Alien III ; they existed with no real explanation.... ?!? )He couldn't survive without Magic....so there is no other Way except Dormancy

HokaHey
Medicineman

Yes there are. They're not-undead essence drained humans. With a nasty virus.



There are wolf-shapeshifters (more akin to kitsune). But not werewolves in the "full moon" sense.

The SR Vampires are neither WoD Vampires and they shure don't sparkle in the Sun !
They're Victims of a Virus (just like Ghouls,Wndigos, etc)

And Yes We do have Shapeshifters !
Animals(Bears,Wolves,Eagle,Tiger etc.....Predators) that can change into Human Form
Go get yourself the Runners Compendium
(Me personally I liked Vampires in Chrome, but I don't like the Idea of Shadowrun of Darkness
but thats for a totally new Thread )

He who dances in Darkness and in the Shadows
Medicineman

You and Draco18s need to get your snark meters re-calibrated. I'm joking, I really am.


I know I'm not contributing constructively to the topic at hand; I just couldn't resist the opportunity to snark at totally unnecessary and beside-the-point character types in SR. After twenty years of running SR without vampires or shapeshifters I can say with confidence that we are not yet running out of interesting character concepts. That said, I had a great time running and playing oWoD games but when I want my magical-cyberpunk I set aside the fangs and fur. YMMV, obviously.


*added to prevent anyone from concluding that I am being deadly serious and pronouncing them to be having "wrong bad fun."

They do if they cast spells.
(Because all spells sparkle in SR4)



I like my shadows with scales, but that just might be some kind of speciest preference on my part.

You are presuming that Magic attributes are equal to 0 during the downcycle. Much of the SR literature implies that Magic is merely very difficult to perform during the down cycle. This being due to the **LACK** of Mana. You'll find this sort of info in the older editions (SR1 & SR2).

But then again, I've never gotten a solid answer as to whether the downcycle is a mana void (and thus a penalty applied to the Magic attribute) or simply an utter lack of mana for purposes of determining how that effect works.

This is false. As I have already mentioned, the elven nosferatu Luther was a spike baby born at the end of the 18th century. I also strongly suspect that he was already a nosferatu before the Awakening, but I haven't found any confirmation of that yet.

Also, let's look at this in a broader context. If HMHVV absolutely did not exist before the Awakening, then where do all the vampire myths and legends come from? There had to have been at least a few Infected during the 5th World to start the legends in the first place.

In yet more derailment I'll agree with you. Lofwyr is the quintessential symbol of the fantasy/cyberpunk fusion. Is there anything more obvious and appropriate than a dragon waking up in the modern world and using his hoard of riches to maneuver himself to a position as a despotic puppet master in charge of the world's largest megacorporation.

Note also that "Great Dragon" is not a character generation option. I could perhaps accept shapeshifters and vampires in Shadowrun if they stayed Critters. Its the Runners Companion that offends me most. I felt the exact same way when "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" published a Player's Guide that essentially made the game into "Any Old Shapeshifter: The Confusion."

You and Draco18s need to get your snark meters re-calibrated. I'm joking, I really am.
I can't see your face so I take all your Posts serious
Its a kind of courtesy


And I like mine with big,hairy Feet


thats from a Novel ,right ?
My Informations are from the Game itself(like 6th World Almanach)

If HMHVV absolutely did not exist before the Awakening, then where do all the vampire myths and legends come from?
Counterquestion (is that the right word ?)
Dragons were sleeping throughout the 5th World ,right ?
where did all the Legends from Dragons come from ?
AND I only know of vampire Legends in my/our/the Real world. I don't know of any Vampire Legends in the SR-World


with a Dance in the Shires
Medicineman

Drakes, dude.

Also:
I'll agree that RC did some wacky shit, and isn't very well balanced, but in other ways I like the book.

That is correct, it is from the novel Nosferatu.
Dragon legends are a bit easier to explain, because it is canon that some of the IE's hunted down dragons and great dragons during the downcycle. The Elves' ability to do magic was very limited compared to their usual power level, so it is not unreasonable to guess that they would have used their less-magical skill at spinning intrigue to convince some ignorant human 'dragonslayers' to assist them in finding and killing the dragons. No doubt the tales those human dragonslayers would spread of their experiences afterward would make more humans believe in dragons as terrible beasts that kill livestock and kidnap damsels for the evulz (DISCLAIMER), which would make recruiting future help much easier for the immortal elves.

And the real world and the Shadowrun world are one and the same from the beginning of the 5th world until 1991. So any vampire myths and legends in our world are also in the Shadowrun world.

EDIT: Also, stories of dragons were already around after their presence and actions in the 4th world.

Ok
thats a good Point

HokaHey
Medicineman

Not only do they exist, they are in your base book.

1986, that's when Burger retired in real life.