Sure it does. The only way to counter exploding dice is to use exploding dice yourself. That shifts the odds back in the magician's favor. SR4.5 is all about who's got the bigger dice pool, after all. Exploding dice is also the only way to counter exploding drain levels.

Look, TJ, why don't you just ban F7+ spirits, and be done with it? That's effectively what you're doing. It doesn't matter how well a player roleplays, your spirits will fight him using your "GM discretion" that's been codified into a house rule.

Again, expenditure of Edge is not a Houserule. and when a Spirit spends it is up to GM discretion, which is also not a house rule... get over it Cain, you are wrong on this one... The Edge expenditure by spirits is not used to negate any services, though it may have that effect, but not usually, UNLESS IT IS A POWERFUL SPIRIT. The expenditure of Edge is to make the opportunity cost of the summoning as steep as the spirit can make it, so maybe the mage will think about it before doing it. Unless the mage is summoning Force 7+ Spirits, the mage likely still has more dice to summon than the spirit has to resist the summoning. Get It?

As for Countering Exploding dice, Edge expenditure does not do that... especially with Summoning and Binding, because it is not an opposed test for the purposes of how much drain you take. The opposed test is solely to determineif you get more hits for purposes of gaining services. So you cannot negate that expenditure for purposes of Drain. Spirit gets Hits and causes 2x Drain based upon his success test for hits... see, no countering involved, or even possible, for that matter.

And force 7+ Spirits are not banned. If you had read any of my replies on this subject over the year or so you and I have gone back and forth about it, they are still summonable, it is just something that is done with a bit of forethought and finesse, rather than just brute summoning, which seems to be so popular a subject here... Try finesse sometimes, you might like it ... We have had actual characters summon spirits above 6 in the past. But in these cases, they are more of a last resort, than a primary resource.

Yes, you're punishing your players for having effective characters, by using GM cheese. It's be one thing if the magician had Spirit Bane, or had a reputation for mistreating spirits; but you're spending Edge every time they dare to summon a spirit of force 4 or greater. At force 7, you're effectively banning them from the game.


And now you have to spend Edge on the Drain test as well as the summoning test. You must really hate magician players, to suck up their Edge so readily.

I believe what TJ is referring to as a Rule is the section in Street Magic, page 95, under Spirits and Edge, in which it is suggested:


There doesn't seem to be any argument here about the mistreating part, it's the discrepancy in power part that seems to be a sticking point. It is up to the gamemaster, of course, but there should be some analysis of what "discrepancy... is large" means.

First of all, it has to be positive, that is to say, the spirit is of Force higher than the Magic of the conjurer. Then one has to determine how much greater constitutes a large discrepancy. Is 1 greater enough to be large? Does it have to be half the magician's Magic Attribute greater? That's up to the GM. And given that magicians in the SR universe would have discovered over time a general rule like this, the GM telling the players at the outset what that rule of thumb is is a reasonable thing to do.

TJ's system refutes both of these considerations by making a hard and fast limit of Force of 4+ (greater than 4?). If that's OK with everyone at the table, fine. It is however, a digression from the 'Rule'.

I am just curious why you need to spend Edge on the Drain test... are 8 dice such a threat (for a Force 4 Spirit spending Edge) that a Magician with Drain Dice in the double digits is actually afraid of it? Really? Lets look at the averages, here, to see just how intimidated you really are when it comes to Edge Dice, and the rules that we use at our table...

Force 4 Spirit, Spends Edge for total of 8 Dice to resist summoning... Average of 2.4 Hits... lets be generous and say one is a 6, reroll and lets give it to him... so 3.4 hits for Resistance, on average... so 6 Drain... My theoretically optimized Conjurer, with a Magic of 6) has a Drain Stat Combination of 5, so 10 Dice to resist Drain... on average, 3.1 hits to resist, so my damage is 3... But wait, there is more... I can reduce the damage because of my Trauma Damper and/or Platelet Factories for a net total of 1 Drain (and I am sure that there are other options that I have not indicated)... pretty damn scary...

A force 5 Spirit nets 3.1 Successes (10 Dice), and we will give him the 1 as a 6 and a success to be nice... so 4 successes, and 8 Drain... same situation with the Conjuror though, and now I am up to a whopping 3 points of stun sustained...

At Force 6 (12 Dice) it is 6 hits (so 12 points of potential stun), because the average hits is now 4, and I will give him half successes and automatic success on the reroll... so actual sustained becomes 7 (3 soak, and 2 moved to nonexistence)...

Now, at Force 7, so 6/7 Hits, and we are still at 12/14 points of stun, so roughly the same 7/9 points of Damage, but now it is physical. Makes sense, he is no Oversummoning. It gets more risky from there, of course, as it should. and one of the nonexistant points of damae is now Stun damage

Now, lets take the Mage, and give him a few things that he would probably have. Like say, A Force 5 cast/Sustained augment to one of his drain stats. Now you are looking at 5 average successes on Drain...

So,
F0rce 4: 1 Point of Drain, Stun
Force 5: 3 points of Drain, Stun
Force 6: 5 point of Drain, Stun
Force 7: 5/7 points Drain, Physical. 1 point Drain Stun.

Slightly better, and they will improve if the other drain stat is raised, or if there are other considerations, such as Initiated Centering. Of course, you could spend Edge to further minimize the Drain, but it is not a necessity.

Now, of course, these are all averages. As we know, that is the baseline for what can be expected... sometimes it will be high, and sometimes it will be low. I have no issues if the Highs kill the unprepared Mage, because they pay for their power. The lows are statistically irrelevant.

All the above will be somewhat mitigated by a PC member who will take care of the issue of conjuration Drain with first aid (I do not agree with that, obviously, but thems are the rules...

I fail to see where the Conjurer is banned from summoning a powerful spirit above Force 6. Yes, it becomes a somewhat risky proposition, as it should be. But here is the kicker. If you do not place a limiter on the ease of conjuration in some fashion, then you get Force 10 Spirits being summoned, with the same drain inflicted as the Force 5 at our table, which is not consistent with the way the world is set up. In the end, our system more imitates the fluff. And note, not once was a house rule used in the summoning of these spirits (though some equipment is open to interpretation). I am sorry, but I just cannot get on board with your point of view.

@pbangarth.

I do not agreee that we throw out the considerations you refer to. There are ways for the conjurer to mitigate the Edge Expenditure, but it does require some effort on the part of the Conjurer. They do not get it for free, after all.

@TJ:

My post was not concerned with the broader Edge discussion, only the 'houserule vs. RAW' issue. I see in the text of Street Magic mention of a discrepancy in power between conjurer and spirit that does not match your 4+ limit. In counter-arguing others you suggest you are following the rules, not they. I don't see that. A magician with Magic 5 or 6 in your game would not be experiencing the power discrepancy the book suggests should precede use of Edge by the spirit, but would still face that opposition.

This is fine for your game. I suspect I would be happy playing in that environment. It does not carry official backing, though. It's your rule.

Now, I do disagree with those who argue that spirits should never use Edge. Some who hold that opinion argue that GMs who use Edge like that for NPCs are unfairly setting up the PCs for failure because the GM has an unlimited supply of opponents that can use Edge. I think the suggestion in Street Magic is a fair balance. (Even if there is leeway in interpreting what a 'large discrepancy' is.)

Fair Enough...

As for the Dicrepency issue (which you refer too), I do not see it as a discrepency of Magical Power (Magic/Force Ratings), but of Intelectual Power (Typical Mental Stats). In this case, Typical Metahumanity has a 2, and Force 4+ is Double or more in that capacity... It is just a different point of view on Power, I guess...

The Mental stats comparison has some merit, come to think of it. Which would you compare? Given the concept of 'force of personality' I would think WIL or CHA, no?

Since Willpower is the basis of every magical tradition out there, it would be Willpower...

Nice how far away we are from the original topic...but it is still a correct discussion of how magic works. ^^

even Harry Dresden explains elaborately that magic depends on one's willpower

And based on the magician's perception of how magic works, with a caveat that there are rules that constantly change.

That's why he used blue Play-Doh for a defense spell, as "Blue" means safety in his mind. That, and that color was on sale at Wal-Mart.

Indeed...