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Socinus
I was wondering if I could throw a question at someone more familiar with the enchanting mechanics.

How exactly would you go about enchanting ammunition, bullets or bolts, such that a spell would discharge when they hit a target? Mechanics, skills, materials, rolls, etc etc.

I've looked at the issue before but I wasnt able to sort it out.
Jhaiisiin
As I understand it, you can't. Spells, wards and such cannot be anchored to moving objects.
Fringe
Anchoring (Street Magic, pp 59-60). It's terribly expensive (spend Karma = Force, per shot), and you'd have to be at least a Grade-2 Initiate to have access to that metamagic technique. If you want the bullet damage in addition to the spell, this is the way you'd probably have to go.

Otherwise, probably what you want is to check with your GM to see if he/she will let you use a gun as a fetish for your spell. I probably wouldn't let you use a functioning firearm as a fetish, but maybe something that looks vaguely like a firearm (in a way analogous to those who use dolls in sympathetic magic). You could define the "shot" as the way in which your spell manifests, and it would be entirely for RP purposes.

I suppose you could design a new spell to do something like that, with correspondingly greater drain, or you could multicast a single-target spell with your area-effect spell (using your "gun" as a fetish).
CanRay
Maybe one of those novelty "Pistol Lighters" that shoots out a Fireball Spell as you light your smoke?

And then discard the lit cigarette behind you onto the trail of gasoline to explode the barrels behind you as you walk away, not looking, and your lined coat flaps in the concussion of the blast?
Tanegar
QUOTE (Fringe @ Feb 28 2011, 07:39 PM) *
I probably wouldn't let you use a functioning firearm as a fetish

Why not? You can't shoot and cast a spell at the same time; mechanically, it's identical to having a gun and a fetish, except that when you get frisked and your gun taken away, you also lose the fetish (which otherwise might have been overlooked).
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, by the rules your only chance at creating magic bullets come in the form of Anchoring Foci. Which is a horrible, horrible waste of resources.

As a house rule, however, we allow "elemental bullets" for basic (ie, not heavily modified or technologically advanced) shotguns and revolvers. They're basically rounds made from refined reagents and decorated with eldritch runes and the like. Expensive (roughly 1,000 nuyen a round), but not to the point of being completely out there as per Anchoring Foci. Especially since their only real advantage is getting around Immunity to Normal Weapons. They were limited to revolvers and shotguns because of the relative simplicity of their design. For some weird mumbo-jumbo reason, the high tech nature of other types of firearms disrupted the delicate enchantment of the rounds.
CanRay
If incapacitation is what you're aiming for when it comes to "Immunity to Natural Weapons", might I suggest a cheaper alternative?

Stolen Dump Truck full of Sand. Hit target with it, and park it on him. Laugh as he tries to lift it off of him. Run away, real fast. Preferably in a vehicle.
Tanegar
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 28 2011, 08:03 PM) *
If incapacitation is what you're aiming for when it comes to "Immunity to Natural Weapons", might I suggest a cheaper alternative?

Stolen Dump Truck full of Sand. Hit target with it, and park it on him. Laugh as he tries to lift it off of him. Run away, real fast. Preferably in a vehicle.

And if your target is a spirit, die horribly when it shifts back to the astral, phases through the pile of sand and the dump truck, chases you down at astral speeds, and materializes inside your vehicle.
UmaroVI
Per the FAQ, you can do this with Possession Spirits.

Bullet vessels possessed by spirits may be used to deliver an astral attack from the spirit (p. 87, Street Magic), provided the dual-natured bullet can make contact with the astral form; this will require the expenditure of a service from the spirit like any other attack.
CanRay
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 28 2011, 09:11 PM) *
And if your target is a spirit, die horribly when it shifts back to the astral, phases through the pile of sand and the dump truck, chases you down at astral speeds, and materializes inside your vehicle.

Well, obviously the right tool for the right job.

And Spirits tend to have weaknesses other than normal weapons you can take advantage of.
Mardrax
If you're just looking to bypass ItNW, SnS ammo works fine.

In case of a Fire spirit, fill the truck with water instead of sand.

Also CanRay, thanks for firmly embedding Cool Guys Don't Look At Explosions in my head there.
Fringe
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 28 2011, 07:53 PM) *
Why not? You can't shoot and cast a spell at the same time; mechanically, it's identical to having a gun and a fetish, except that when you get frisked and your gun taken away, you also lose the fetish (which otherwise might have been overlooked).


The problem I'm thinking of is that someone will try to insist that you then could cast and shoot at the same time. That's the person who will claim something like, "Oh yeah, my spell has a gesture component of pulling the trigger." To which I will respond, "The bullets, being foreign to the fetish [not having been enchanted as part of the fetish], interfere with the magical integrity of the fetish, so you can't cast your limited spell."

You're right, though, as I look at the rules for creating fetishes (Street Magic, p. 81). But a gun most definitely is a mundane telesma (Street Magic, pp. 83-4); from the discussion on p. 83, it's incredibly difficult to handmake a gun like those in the books, and it would be nigh impossible to make one as virgin telesma. Granted, it's not a problem to start with one, but it's going to be more difficult to replace.
Mardrax
Firing a weapon is a simple action.
Casting a spell is a complex action.

You can only combine: two simple actions and a free action, or one complex action and a free action in a single Initiative Pass. Hence, you can't shoot them together. Nope, not even using some kind of conglomerated MRSI set up. Period.
Tanegar
Personally, I prefer the gun-as-focus rather than gun-as-fetish. Make your gun a combat spellcasting focus, and hey presto, you have a gun that shoots fireballs (or lightning bolts, or whatever other kind of combat spell you need it to). Not really, but you could easily say that the spell manifests from the barrel of the focus-gun. Alternatively, make your gun a detection sustaining focus, and cast Enhance Aim (is that the spell?) into it. Not as flashy as the gun that shoots lightning, but a workable substitute for Improved Ability (Pistols) if you're a full magician rather than an adept.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 1 2011, 02:55 AM) *
and cast Enhance Aim (is that the spell?) into it.

Analyze Device is what you're looking for.
Get a TM to have his Machine Sprite live in it as well while you're at it.
Bodak
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 1 2011, 10:38 AM) *
As I understand it, you can't. Spells, wards and such cannot be anchored to moving objects.
Aaron's post here points out the horrible consequences of SR4 allowing mobile wards, allowing collision between wards, etc.

QUOTE (Mardrax @ Mar 1 2011, 12:10 PM) *
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 1 2011, 11:55 AM) *
cast Enhance Aim (is that the spell?) into it.
Analyze Device is what you're looking for.
Get a TM to have his Machine Sprite live in it as well while you're at it.
Enhance Aim would also be helpful.
CanRay
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 28 2011, 09:40 PM) *
Also CanRay, thanks for firmly embedding Cool Guys Don't Look At Explosions in my head there.

If you don't have exploding barrels and burning cars everywhere after an action scene, you're doing it wrong.

A shot up and crashed Yellowjacket would be nice, too.
Bodak
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Mar 1 2011, 12:10 PM) *
Analyze Device is what you're looking for.
The problem with casting Analyse Device on a firearm is the number of hits you waste on the Object Resistance. If it's a smartgun that's at least 6 hits for no benefit. To get a +1 dice pool bonus you'd need 7 hits (so you'd need to ((potentially) over-)cast the spell at Force 7) and roll average results on 21 dice. Unless you have a F7 sustaining focus or spirit, you then have a -2 dice pool penalty to sustain the effect, negating your +1 bonus. This is overcome when you cast at F9, needing average results on 27 dice, which yields a net +1 die bonus to using that firearm. It may not be the most efficient approach.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Bodak @ Mar 1 2011, 05:24 AM) *
The problem with casting Analyse Device on a firearm is the number of hits you waste on the Object Resistance. If it's a smartgun that's at least 6 hits for no benefit. To get a +1 dice pool bonus you'd need 7 hits (so you'd need to ((potentially) over-)cast the spell at Force 7) and roll average results on 21 dice. Unless you have a F7 sustaining focus or spirit, you then have a -2 dice pool penalty to sustain the effect, negating your +1 bonus. This is overcome when you cast at F9, needing average results on 27 dice, which yields a net +1 die bonus to using that firearm. It may not be the most efficient approach.

Ah. True enough.

Get an old Winchester 1866 though...

I actually forgot about Enhance Aim being an actual spell. Late night and mental faculties don't combine well it seems nyahnyah.gif
Lansdren
I did have a plan for a NPC pistol adept based on the nightside version of the Walking Man,

Carrying twin Attuned 1900 era Colt pistols loaded with bullets with anchored combat spells made by a bunch of monks who make enchanted weapons for the faithfull.



As a player the costs in Karma are astronomical and the cost in money if you could buy the ammo would be off the chart. But as a NPC thing to add flavour and maybe abit of a danger you can get away with a lot.


Personal choices would be a single round with a high force fireball spell anchored to it for those times when you have to kill it with fire
CanRay
Why am I thinking of a Colt Paterson modified to fire 13 special cartridges?
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Mar 1 2011, 10:19 AM) *
I did have a plan for a NPC pistol adept based on the nightside version of the Walking Man,

Carrying twin Attuned 1900 era Colt pistols loaded with bullets with anchored combat spells made by a bunch of monks who make enchanted weapons for the faithfull.



As a player the costs in Karma are astronomical and the cost in money if you could buy the ammo would be off the chart. But as a NPC thing to add flavour and maybe abit of a danger you can get away with a lot.


Personal choices would be a single round with a high force fireball spell anchored to it for those times when you have to kill it with fire


GET OUT OF MY HEAD...
Well, no idea who the walking man is. But i had the idea of a insanely powerful Ki-Magician working for the Vatican. And a cabal of priest-magicians pumped hundreds of point of karma into him: Fully quickened, anchored and hardened high rating spells: Combat sense, armour, enhanced attributes, enhanced senses; everything. And he would use pistols too, with the option to load a SACRED round containing earth-shattering spells *g*. He himself would have counterspelling, magic resistance and mostly defensive- Ki-powers.

Also as a NPC of course. As a fun "OH shit it is HIM... RUUUUUN"-foe
The Jopp
Take a magician
Possession tradition
Skills: Archery, Fletching

Magician makes his own arrowheads
summons low force elementals inside arrowhead
fix arrowhead on arrows

Service from elemental:
Elemental aura when lodged into a target
Engulf whatever it lodges inside
Make astral attack on whatever it lodges inside

Give magician a Crossbow and a bunch of elemental filled arrows
CanRay
And the Troll Archer just got even more sick.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Bodak @ Feb 28 2011, 11:24 PM) *
The problem with casting Analyse Device on a firearm is the number of hits you waste on the Object Resistance. If it's a smartgun that's at least 6 hits for no benefit. To get a +1 dice pool bonus you'd need 7 hits (so you'd need to ((potentially) over-)cast the spell at Force 7) and roll average results on 21 dice. Unless you have a F7 sustaining focus or spirit, you then have a -2 dice pool penalty to sustain the effect, negating your +1 bonus. This is overcome when you cast at F9, needing average results on 27 dice, which yields a net +1 die bonus to using that firearm. It may not be the most efficient approach.

What if it's not a smartgun? A basic gun is just a chunk of alloy with some moving parts; in other words, a "manufactured high-tech object" (OR 3). Still not a trivial threshold, but a lot better than OR 6. F6 Analyze Device can potentially give you a +3 bonus, making up for the absence of a smartlink and then some, for only 3 Drain.
Yerameyahu
You still have to sustain that, and it's barely better than the Smartlink, plus no cool smart functions. Which is good, because Analyze Device is bull.
Dahrken
Yeah, the bonus should have been limited to offseting penalties for unfamiliar hardware - like a gun you never fired - or being granted only for Build/Repair or Knowledge rolls.
Mäx
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 1 2011, 09:00 PM) *
What if it's not a smartgun? A basic gun is just a chunk of alloy with some moving parts; in other words, a "manufactured high-tech object" (OR 3). Still not a trivial threshold, but a lot better than OR 6. F6 Analyze Device can potentially give you a +3 bonus, making up for the absence of a smartlink and then some, for only 3 Drain.

So you want to spent 12 karma and 60k nuyen.gif in game to get 1 extra dice to shooting, not best idea i have ever heard, but atleast no one is gonna acuse you of being a munchin wink.gif
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Feb 28 2011, 08:11 PM) *
And if your target is a spirit, die horribly when it shifts back to the astral, phases through the pile of sand and the dump truck, chases you down at astral speeds, and materializes inside your vehicle.

Don't dump a dump truck. Stunbolt, stunbolt, and then stunbolt again. Stunbolt kills most spirits dead. wacko.gif
Tanegar
Why is Analyze Device bull?
Yerameyahu
Because it should help you analyze a device, not aim better. Not swing a sword better.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 1 2011, 02:22 PM) *
Because it should help you analyze a device, not aim better. Not swing a sword better.



Agreed... And besides, Swords are Tools, as is a Gun, in my opinion... they are not "Devices"...
Sorry, that was a nitpick, and has no relevance... wobble.gif
Tanegar
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 1 2011, 04:22 PM) *
Because it should help you analyze a device, not aim better. Not swing a sword better.

Having supernaturally precise knowledge of a sword's balance or a gun's ballistic characteristics shouldn't help you attack more effectively? Lolwut?
Yerameyahu
No, it shouldn't. It's not like mundane specific familiarity does anything like that. A smartlink knows the ballistics. A Specialization is for whole classes of items, so it can't refer to this super-specific understanding. A Personalized Grip gives a small bonus to melee (and that already feels like a stretch). Analyze Device can be a giant bonus, for nothing. They might as well just call it 'Item Luck'. Thank god it has the limitations of sustaining. smile.gif

Anyway, I don't think it's a big problem, but you asked. In fact, if they *did* call it 'Item Luck', that'd be fine. Maybe 'Attunement', steal that from the Adepts. biggrin.gif
Tanegar
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 1 2011, 06:36 PM) *
It's not like mundane specific familiarity does anything like that.

Actually, I suspect that most, if not all, swordsmen and marksmen would disagree with you. Increasing familiarity with a particular weapon does, indeed, help you to use it more effectively. Analyze Device, like the Attunement metamagic, merely takes that phenomenon to a supernatural level.
Yerameyahu
You misunderstand. That's exactly my point: "most, if not all, swordsmen and marksmen" *would* say that familiarity has an effect. …Except in Shadowrun. I specifically addressed this in my last post. smile.gif So, if *real* familiarity doesn't work in Shadowrun, why would this handwaving? And again, if Analyze Device is supposed to be the same as Attunement, call it Attunement.
Tanegar
Why wouldn't handwaving work? Magic is nothing but handwaving.
CanRay
Geas: Handwavium.
ggodo
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 1 2011, 05:14 PM) *
Geas: Handwavium.


My favorite suggestion was Geas: Intoxication. Can only cast while drunk.
CanRay
QUOTE (ggodo @ Mar 1 2011, 09:35 PM) *
My favorite suggestion was Geas: Intoxication. Can only cast while drunk.

"My magic is powered by sweet, sweet alco... WHY IS THE RUM GONE?"

Edit: Oh, and Butch Paterson, Private Dick, the socially-inept social adept.
Fortinbras
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 1 2011, 07:24 PM) *
Lolwut?


Stop it!
ggodo
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 1 2011, 05:38 PM) *
"My magic is powered by sweet, sweet alco... WHY IS THE RUM GONE?"

Edit: Oh, and Butch Paterson, Private Dick, the socially-inept social adept.


Butch sounds like what happens when our trollbow tries to talk to people.
The Jopp
Analyze device works flawlessly on a primitive gun without smartlink - and you can get around the whole hi-tech problem.

Take a basic gun
Cast analyze device on it and sustain it
Slap on a top mounted smartgun link

The spell and smartgun link should work together as the top mounted smartgun is an easily mounted accessory and not a internal part of the gun.

You could go even to more bizarre lengths.

Analyze Device:
Pistol (Gives a flat bonus)
Smartgun Link (Makes it more efficient)
Display Glasses (Perception bonus - Vision modifiers in combat)

Now the kicker here is if they would work togheter - and who will sustain the -6 modifier for three spells
Dahrken
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 2 2011, 01:11 AM) *
"most, if not all, swordsmen and marksmen" *would* say that familiarity has an effect. …Except in Shadowrun.

Weill, there is that often overlooked penalty suggested for using a weapon or driving a vehicule you are *not* familiar with...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 2 2011, 12:50 AM) *
Analyze device works flawlessly on a primitive gun without smartlink - and you can get around the whole hi-tech problem.

Take a basic gun
Cast analyze device on it and sustain it
Slap on a top mounted smartgun link

The spell and smartgun link should work together as the top mounted smartgun is an easily mounted accessory and not a internal part of the gun.

You could go even to more bizarre lengths.

Analyze Device:
Pistol (Gives a flat bonus)
Smartgun Link (Makes it more efficient)
Display Glasses (Perception bonus - Vision modifiers in combat)

Now the kicker here is if they would work togheter - and who will sustain the -6 modifier for three spells


That is what Sustaining Foci are for...
Yerameyahu
I agree that those are bizarre lengths, but I disagree that you can go to them. smile.gif What does 'makes it more efficient' even mean? biggrin.gif

Not to worry, Tymeaus. I'm sure this player has Adept Centering.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 2 2011, 07:32 AM) *
I agree that those are bizarre lengths, but I disagree that you can go to them. smile.gif What does 'makes it more efficient' even mean? biggrin.gif

Not to worry, Tymeaus. I'm sure this player has Adept Centering.


Ahhhh Yes, Adept Centering; or the other Adept Ability: Heightened Concentration... I always forget about those for some reason. wobble.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 2 2011, 03:32 PM) *
What does 'makes it more efficient' even mean? biggrin.gif


Eer, well.

By RAW the understanding of the Smartgun link is increased by the spell and you then gain a dicebonus to the connected skill when handling said Smartgun link.

It's a stretch but technically one could argue that the user manage to finetune the smartgun link or magically improve it's effectiveness to get an increased dicebonus above the +2 for smartlinking.
CanRay
QUOTE (ggodo @ Mar 2 2011, 03:44 AM) *
Butch sounds like what happens when our trollbow tries to talk to people.

He sounds like a drunken, potty-mouthed, early ejaculating Film Noir Dick?
Fortinbras
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 2 2011, 03:50 AM) *
Analyze device works flawlessly on a primitive gun without smartlink - and you can get around the whole hi-tech problem.

Take a basic gun
Cast analyze device on it and sustain it
Slap on a top mounted smartgun link

The spell and smartgun link should work together as the top mounted smartgun is an easily mounted accessory and not a internal part of the gun.

You could go even to more bizarre lengths.

Analyze Device:
Pistol (Gives a flat bonus)
Smartgun Link (Makes it more efficient)
Display Glasses (Perception bonus - Vision modifiers in combat)

Now the kicker here is if they would work togheter - and who will sustain the -6 modifier for three spells


You're thinking small potatoes. You can cast it on the trigger, the grip, the sight, the barrel, the stock, the chamber and the gloves you're wearing when you fire the gun.
Or you could cast it on a bunch of glasses, and stack them all. Maybe cast Analyze Device on your shoes to give you a better stance when firing the gun?

In any event, a 'primitive' gun or sword isn't a device as defined by Shadowrun. SR4A defines a Device as any hardware with Matrix connectivity enabled. As in Device Rating. That bumps your Object Resistance to 6+ or 5+, depending on which table you want to use. If you're throwing around 15 to 18 dice on spells and have the nuyen and karma for a Force 5/6 Sustaining Focus, then shooting a gun is the least powerful thing you can do.
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