1) Troll bows are cooler.
2) Bows are much more legal than sniper rifles, and are thus easier to slip past security. If you say your bow is polycarbonate, it might not even trip a metal detector at all.
3) Bows aren't as delicate as sniper rifles. Bang a sniper rifle a little too hard, and your sights go out of whack, causing you all kinds of penalties. Bow's don't have that problem.

Let's assume the elf in question has his Agility maxed out at 12( one could do 15, but I don't know if we want to get into that yet) and the Troll has his Agility maxed at 10. We'll assume the skill is the same. That means the Elf has 2/3rds or a better hit than the Troll. Nothing to write home about, but nothing to be ignored.

The elf is firing a Barrett at 10P for -5AP. The troll is shooting at 15P for no AP. The Barrett has twice the range of the bow and shoots twice, but can't be used in close quarters combat, and is 18F vs. 2.

Brass tax, 15P is usually better than 10P regardless of the armor penetration. So unless you plan on making a lot of shots from 1,500 meters away, I'd say if you want to play a troll you aren't giving up that much in the combat department.
If all you want is to make a min/maxed character, then I suggesting getting out your calculator, making the most bad-ass, damage dealing character you can and putting that sheet in a drawer somewhere never to be played. Playing a concept is ever so much more rewarding than playing a set on numbers.

Ease up on him, Fortinbras.

All characters are collections of numbers. You can gimp a character, or min/max it all to hell, it doesn't make a difference. What matters is that you enjoy playing your character, and that you can roleplay it well.

If he wants to make a damage dealer, that's fine. That doesn't tell us a whit about the rest of his character: what concepts he might have that he's not telling us about, or what kind of roleplay skills he brings to the table. He might end up being the best roleplayer at the table. That's all a matter of personal ability, not character.

And to think, I really liked Hood when I first read about him...

Too true, too true.
I just hate to see players who have a neat character in mind and get psyched about an idea, then abandon it, and in turn that enthusiasm, because they feel they need to make a "better" character. All I was trying to convey was that if the kid was psyched to play a trollerblader, play the heck out of that trollerblader. Yield not to mechanical wisdom, but to your baser instincts.

Plus, one of the first things I do when I get a new system or game on the horizon is make the most min/maxed character I can just to prove I can and the put it in a drawer never to see the light of day. It gets all the power gaming out of my system so my creativity can flourish. There is an elf street sammy with a 15 Agility sitting in my drawer right now whom I shall never play, but it's relieving to know I can.

Impressive. I generally need to play a meet or two before I get a good enough grasp of the game style (and the primary element: the GM's style) before I feel that I can make an effective character.

As for Fortinbras, there are a few things I should mention. I'm talking about a starting/near starting character. A rating 12 bow is a feasible buy early in the game, but I learned from DnD to make my character blossom at early levels, rather than building for level 20.
That said, my DV estimation was off for the rifle. I was thinking of a combo of the DV of the PJSS Elephant Rifle and the AP of the Walter MA-2100, both of which are available at character creation.
Another key point was the lack of need for strength. Since STR is the stat used for bow DV, it makes sense to make that the one I max out (assuming DV > dice pool). However the elf is guaranteed 7+ DV with a sniper rifle. Thus I can max AGI, and have a boatload of extra points to make my character "balanced" .
"Brass tax, 15P is usually better than 10P regardless of the armor penetration"
Strong point, and I would agree with you, but my point was that I could make two of these weaker attacks per pass. That does increase the number of shots my target gets to resist the damage, but that is where the AP comes into play. Even without that, the opportunity to spread my damage out rather than getting 15 points overkill on one target is a great strategic move.

I liked Cain's #1 point above that, but as for 2 and 3, I don't think our GM plays with that sort of detail, and even if he gave me a penalty for a crit glitch, he would probably let me negate the penalty by fixing my weapon after combat. Like that one time I intentionally crit glitched while rollerblading around the parking lot outside Saeder Krupp's branch office. I healed my damage with a 24 hour extended heal check, and the large troll shaped dent in our van buffed right out with a proper whack.

"If all you want is to make a min/maxed character"
Not quite. I do have a sense of aesthetics. For example, it sounds like mages are heavy hitters in this game, but I prefer to play a physical damage dealing glass cannon. You have no idea how put off I was by the troll's bonus to body.

All in all guys, don't worry. I've kind of grown attached to my troll, and I do like his simplicity. Then again, I really want a character that I can fit with an alias like "Hard Quail"

Because an Elf with high agility may be good with shooting guns, but not with much of anything else.
A Troll with high STR ALSO gets a good Body to go with that and thus becomes capable of taking hits without caring.
Furthermore, he can lose his weapons and simply use his fists to deal some good enough Damage still.
Also, you can make him into a breaking and entering Troll too, because climbing is based on strength, if i remember correctly.
And he can carry other people around like they were nothing. And he can be a ladder for other people by standing somewhere and lifting them up.

Most important Reason for going with the Trollerskates and Trollbow?
IT'S NOT A FRAGGING ELF!

Shadowrun is way different than level-based systems. You shouldn't plan for level 20, because you're going to start near there anyway. In a level-based system, you start off weak and rapidly go up in power. In Shadowrun, you start off strong and slowly become stronger. You should build up the most effective starting character you can, and then roleplay the hell out of him. This is not as hard as you think: an Uncouth troll should be grabbing platefuls of hors d'ouvres and pouring them into his mouth all at once, because that's what the character would do.

As far as #3 goes, the rules for damaging sniper rifles should be in the equipment section. You really can unalign your scope fairly easily, which is an advantage for a bow.

As for the points Stahlsteele made, you should consider that an elf shooter can only shoot. A troll archer is also a formidable melee combatant. He's also capable of taking more damage, and dishing out punishment as well as taking it. His bow will be useful in close quarters as well as long range, and you can do more than just sit there waiting for a shot that never comes. I personally discourage players from running primary snipers: there's just not always enough to keep them occupied. Close combat plus a sniper skill usually makes up for that adequately enough.

"I personally discourage players from running primary snipers: there's just not always enough to keep them occupied. Close combat plus a sniper skill usually makes up for that adequately enough. "
Yeah, I experienced that when we had a day completely made up of diplomacy and socializing.

Honestly though, the body and unarmed combat aren't my cup o' tea. I seriously considered lowering my body below 5 even though I wouldn't get any points for it. Something I did do was buy subpar armor and no helmet, even though I could get better stuff for less. Again, I adore the ranged glass cannon approach.

"Also, you can make him into a breaking and entering Troll too, because climbing is based on strength, if i remember correctly.
And he can carry other people around like they were nothing. And he can be a ladder for other people by standing somewhere and lifting them up."
This, I concede. I've found myself doing random things like this every once in a while, and that may be why I grew attached to my troll. I still gotta say the elf does heaps more damage though.

CQB for a Troll Bowman facing an Elf Bowman: Pick the Elf up and use him like a club against his chummers.

Depends on wether or not you allow for wargear to be used by your waghboss . . er, Troll-Ballista.
MRSI(Mercy)Software. Double Dipping Damage from Bow and Arrow . .

Lol. I'll try that one sometime, even though the GM might have some trouble coming up with rules for it.

P.S. I don't think the troll has enough health to get into CQB with the elf. That is, as long as the elf gets a turn before the troll closes in.

Isn't that what you have the Trollerblades for?
Also, there are rules for this sort of thing.
At least for thrown weapons, there was metahuman in SR3 . .

Is waghboss another term for trollbow? Also, MRSI would only be a valid option for a SURGED human with shiva arms (whatever those're called) since it takes two shots. Then again, I could pump his strength to 10 for a DV 24 attack every turn. Flipping it about once again, I don't think my GM likes SURGED stuff, and I don't want to argue if there's so much else I can do without raising issues.

Oh that's rich. Throwing people at eachother. Do both target and projectile take the same damage?
Anyway, I picked up the blades just for kicks. I like rollerblading, and I was amazed to find support for it in this game.

MRSI works with one single Bow too, as far as i understand . .
Use a ballistic arc for the first arrow, then shoot the second arrow on a lower arc.
And no, waaghboss comes from WH40k. It's basically a 3 to 4m tall Muscle-Machine.
And i only used it because i used the term, because i used wargear shortly after.
Wargear is something you can give your doods in WH40K. And it can also describe
gear for/from War!. It was a play on words really.

Throwing People works exactly like you imagine.
Both take Damage on the basis of the OTHERS Body. Minus their worn impact armor.
So if a Troll chucks a Dwarf with Body 8 (B2/I3) at an Elf with Body 3(B1/I2) Armor:
The Elf Takes 8 Stun Damage minus the 2 from his impact armor.
While the Dwarf takes 3 Stun Damage minus the 3 from HIS impact armor.
So the Elf has some serious problems while the Dwarf is disgruntled.

SR4A, Page 158, Sidebar, "Metahuman Body", done.

One of my group's favorite contacts, Krunch and Klub, were designed off of someone glancing at this table and going, "METAHUMAN BODY?".

*nods* we did that too once . .
And we are all huge(not only in body) Nerds.
So of course we went with a Mix between MasterBlaster and the Fastball Special.

Thanks for the jokes. Yeah, MRSI will work with one bow, but it works out better when you can package all your attacks into one initiative pass.

*shrugs*
eh, just needs a bit more creative tinkering with the rules/the character then ^^
As for the joke, no problem, it's what i am.

Oh, to get a troll that can attack once per pass with MRSI?
Maybe that could be done with spellcasting, but I wouldn't really know since I avoid the magic aspect of these games.

for example.
yeah, i'm not too big on the magic side either . .
if i do get to play, it's stil SR3, and then i usually do what's needed in the group.
and usually, that's the big bad combat troll that keeps the style characters alive.

Sounds like primarily melee combat. How do you manage that? I learned my lesson about the cover system when I popped my head up into a full auto burst.

You just haven't been in a situation where legality has mattered.


I don't like the SURGEd stuff because they're too weird and rare in the fluff. SURGEd folks stick out like a sore thumb in any company, are easily recognizable, super hated by large numbers of racist groups, and often kidnapped for mind control brothels. You'd simply attract too much attention as many of the SURGEd types, more so than a one charisma troll would in most situations other than a boardroom. There's a reason that they don't take you inside for meets. That would double if you were a SURGEd type with a bounty on it. That and I'm afraid of what you do with four arms. and I don't own a copy of Runner's Companion.

I wouldn't do much. just figure out a way to pump out attacks with force exceeding that of any weapon in any book 3 times combat turn. Ooh, I'm starting to... oh yes. how does a DV 30 bow sound to you? Yes, I mean DV 30. Before hits added.

BTW: bwahahaha!

P.S. I think I would have to give up on cyberware .

By Playing SR3, where stuff worked a bit different and seemingly being a natural twinkie for min/maxing this kind of character ^^
Hell, even my talker, the face, a proof of "yes, i CAN play such a character!" is more combat then half of the group put together...
Also, in SR3, a Troll-Bow was even more impressive than you think it is now in SR4 . .
And just because i am playing a Troll does not mean i don't try to use cover. If this means pushing a car in front of me, then so be it!

BWAHAHAAHAHHAAAA!
Poor GM-Guy ^^

Yees! come to the dark side of higher numbers! We have MORE cookies! ^^

I'll at least check out the dark side of more cookies. Higher damage without fiddling with four arms sounds appealing.

Yeah, more arms are, technically, not really worth it in most cases . .

Well, except that the phrase "a girl on each arm" would be exponentially more impressive.

Yah, okay. But that's one of those not quantificable cases.
A pure, mechanical advantage of 4 arms compared to 2?
Slim to none.

I don't know how that would work for strength. drawing a rating 6 bow takes 6 strength, and since you are capable of that with 2 arms regardless of how many you have, is it safe to assume that your total STR would be double its listed value for STR checks involving only the upper body if you have 4 arms?

Hah!
No!
Each arm has STR6. 2 Arms together still are at STR6.
And 4 Arms are STILL at STR6. So basically, the more Arms you have, the weaker each arm gets when you use mor than one for a single given task.

Nice try though, but them's the breaks. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
BECAUSE THE RULES SAY SO.

More Attacks for You ,More Attack Dice AND viewer Defence Dice for your Enemy....?

with an advantageous Dance
Medicineman

How do you figure?
In Close combat, this does not happen.
Only with SingleShot ranged weapons do you get more attacks, because each is a simple action to fire and you can hold more.
How does one get more ATTACK dice out of this? You still have your normal dice, if you don't go akimbo, then the dice are divided by the number of weapons used . .

I was talking generally about the advantages of 4 Arms vs 2 Arms

in close Combat you get more Attack Dice (specialisation,and other Modifiers) and the Enemy gets -1/-2/-3/-4 Dice to Defend
and with ranged Combat you get more Attacks

How does one get more ATTACK dice out of this?
Modifiers are added after Poolsplitting
If you succeed in getting more positive Modifiers than negative ones you can get more Attack Dice

with a lucky Dance
Medicineman

Wait . . why do i get Specialisation and other Modifiers from more arms that another character does not get due to not having 4 or more arms? O.o

I didn't remember akimbo, but I guess if you get that, then it is technically more total attack dice. You roll your entire dice pool once for each attack, and with MRSI (from what little I remember) the hits from each attack should be added to the resulting modified damage. This begs the question: what is going to take 40+ damage from a bow and stay standing? Maybe cuendillar, but that's a whole different mythology.

I don't quite understand the Question ???
You don't get ....
Ok example :
Swordfighter with
Agi 4
Skill Blades 4
Specialisation Swords
2 Swords with personalised Grip and Reach 1 (vs Goon with bare Hands)
and no sight or Wound Modifier
1 Attack wold be 4+4+2+1+1 = 12 Dice & Goon defends normally
2 Attacks would be 4 (Split Pool) +2+1+1 = 8 Dice EACH (so its 16 Dice total)
and Goon defends with -1 first Attack and -2 second Attack

HokaHey
Medicneman

No, in close combat, this does not work if i am understanding these rules correctly.
Because in Close Combat, you do not use only one Weapon for your Attack, if you have 2.
Else, this would apply to using bare hands too . . and everybody and their mom(aside from naga) has at least 2 hands on 2 arms.
Basically, you are attacking once with one sword while holding the other with your 12 dice.
Then you attack with the other sword using your 12 dice again.

With GUNS that is more like you just described, but only if you shoot all guns at once, and not one after the other . .


No much. That is for sure. This is why people STILL cry foul over Troll-Bows.
Even seeing how basically most anything else is plain better most of the time.
Because there are no rules for over-penetration. Just wasted Damage.
What would you need 40 Damage for against Metahumans? 20 Damage is enough to go through stun and physical Damage at once.

No, in close combat, this does not work if i am understanding these rules correctly.
Because in Close Combat, you do not use only one Weapon for your Attack, if you have 2.
Else, this would apply to using bare hands too . . and everybody and their mom(aside from naga) has at least 2 hands on 2 arms.
Basically, you are attacking once with one sword while holding the other with your 12 dice.
Then you attack with the other sword using your 12 dice again.
No Its not that way
You can Attack with only 1 Weapon or with both
Armed Close Combat is slightly different than unarmed close Combat.
With unaermed CC You're correct the Rules assume that you attack with both hands and or Feet and its no difference , but with armed CC ist different
I hope you believe me when I tell you that

Ohhh,If You have the MA Maneuver ambidexterity you get a free parry

with a free Dance
Medicineman

*shrugs*
of course i believe you.
you don't strike me as the person who would lie to be right.
also, i am the first to admit that my SR4 rules knowledge is sketchy at best . .

Reminds me of monk flurry of blows in DnD, but back to the topic at hand.

So, you DO add modifiers after splitting (or not splitting in the case of akimbo) your dice pool?

So, you DO add modifiers after splitting (or not splitting in the case of akimbo) your dice pool?

Yes we can do because Them's the Rules
Akimbo means shooting with two guns at the same time so you have to Split if shooting Akimbo
with Close combat thats Chambarra Fighting (IIRC)

HeyaHeyaHeya
Medicineman

Ah, you made akimbo sound like a quality, so I went on an expedition through my books for it. I don't know where I got the idea that it let you keep your whole dice pool.

I'm gonna give combat a go-over for probably the 5th time since starting this confounded game. In the meantime, do you think a use of edge counts as a modifier (such that you would add it after splitting the pool)?

depends on WHAT you want to do with your Edge.
Reroll Failures for more hits would be better if you have more dice than edge to begin with . .

That can be used if you don't score any hits, so wouldn't "add edge to initial roll for rule of six on all dice" be better in general?

*nods*
yeah.

I can't find the original post that was being referred to, but it seems that if your dice pool is 2.5 times your Edge, then it's better to reroll failures

Link

Hm, could you describe the use of edge you're talking about in more detail? I'm reading this one: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
But I'm reading it as: "the test did not score any hits".

Do a search using the word "edge" in the title. You'll find 3, 4 or more threads talking about this.