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Kerenshara
We've already decided we're going to use one of two versions of the Hacking "tweak" from unwired. We still haven't decided which one to use though, because we're kind of split philosophically. Here they are:

#1) Use [Stat + Skill] Cap Hits @ Program RTG (like spell force).

#2) Use [Program RTG + Skill] Cap Hits @ Stat

The first says basically a person is only as good as their tools.

The second says it takes a smart person to get the BEST out of their tools.

So with #1 if you have a script kiddy and a pro using the same Warez, the vet gets more hits but can't keep any more if the kiddy gets lucky.

With #2 and the same basic conditions, the kiddy will have almost the same dice pool, and the keep pools are also potentially closer.

Philosophically I could go either way. In terms of Crunchy BitzTM I'm more likely to go with #1 because it favors the veteran more heavily IMHO and because it's also CONSISTENT with the Magic Spell mechanics.

Thoughts? (Remember, I'm biased playing with all three DP caps in if that affects your opinion.)

-Kerenshara
CanRay
Back in the day, and I'm talking our days, I'd have gone with #2. Skill and ability mattered.

Even today, however, #1 is true. The tools have surpassed a lot of ability, but the truly skilled can make it get up and dance routinely, while the "Skript Kiddies of the Second Eternal September" have to rely on luck.
Tanegar
I favor #1, because hardly anything (that I know of) caps hits, and the one that does (spell Force) is easy to raise (although not without a cost) just by declaring a higher Force. If you take #2, the hacker has to spend precious karma raising the maximum number of hits he can use; it will tend to make him hyperspecialize. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if that's the kind of group you have, but if you have a small group where everybody needs to cover multiple bases, it can cause problems.
CanRay
Overspecialization bites a lot of people in the hoop. If the Rigger is the only one that can do any kind of driving, and he catches a bullet on his way back from the Stuffer Shack...
Epicedion
#1 seems to jive more with reality and the rest of the game systems. A highly trained person with a crappy program is going to be limited by the program, but a really shoddy hacker with a fantastic program still won't be very good.
Mardrax
Limited by the program? A reality? You should see some of the stuff I've seen people do in MsPaint nyahnyah.gif

I think it depends on how viable you want scriptkids to be. While they're unlikely to have high skills, or a high Logic, they're fairly likely to have a rating 6 set of programs. Having a cap of 6 successes means little for them in general. Having 6 extra dice, instead of (Logic) extra dice does. Especially when capped at an ammount of successes you're not going to make on average anyways.
Fatum
Sorry, I can't read your post.
Have you tried using bold italic, coloured randomly?
CanRay
Too long. Did not read.
Fatum
Nah, I'm ok with long posts, as long as they have any meaning.
Using StYlEs has none.
Tanegar
Or you could pull your panties out of your crack and try not to be quite such a douche. The OP is perfectly readable. If you don't care for the font, that's one thing, but to suggest that the post is automatically unworthy of your, doubtless godlike, attention just because it uses that font is a dick move.

Edit: Sorry, that first bit was uncalled-for. Nevertheless, my point stands. You, sir, made a dick move.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Mar 3 2011, 02:46 AM) *
Limited by the program? A reality? You should see some of the stuff I've seen people do in MsPaint nyahnyah.gif

I think it depends on how viable you want scriptkids to be. While they're unlikely to have high skills, or a high Logic, they're fairly likely to have a rating 6 set of programs. Having a cap of 6 successes means little for them in general. Having 6 extra dice, instead of (Logic) extra dice does. Especially when capped at an ammount of successes you're not going to make on average anyways.


I go back and forth on this one. Sure "a bad craftsman is the first to blame his tools," but at the same time the quality of tools limits the quality of work after a certain point. The world's greatest race car driver is going to lose an F1 race if he has to drive a VW Beetle (at the same time, a really crappy driver in the world's greatest car isn't going to do so hot either).

So I think that #1 is more likely to lead to situations where veteran hackers with low-rated programs are going to max out the effectiveness of their programs almost every time, which, I think, is more realistic. Also I would never expect anyone to have low enough rated programs for it to matter (how often is anyone really going to get 6 successes?), since there's no compelling reason not to.

Maybe a completely different system would work better: (Stat + Skill)/2 + Program RTG, for example. Then at the very least you couldn't afford to skimp on Logic. A little throwback to Hacking Pool, maybe, but not too crazy.
Fatum
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 3 2011, 12:18 PM) *
Or you could pull your panties out of your crack and try not to be quite such a douche. The OP is perfectly readable. If you don't care for the font, that's one thing, but to suggest that the post is automatically unworthy of your, doubtless godlike, attention just because it uses that font is a dick move.

Edit: Sorry, that first bit was uncalled-for. Nevertheless, my point stands. You, sir, made a dick move.

Or you could stop turning text into gibberish for no reason whatsoever besides showing how "special" you are.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Merriam-Webster)
Definition of GIBBERISH
: unintelligible or meaningless language:

I'm pretty sure changing the font doesn't render a sentence unintelligible or meaningless. Maybe my initial comment was called for, after all.
Seth
I think both options suck.

  • I like it when people benefit from rolling well.
  • I like it when not every hacker is identical: now you are forcing them to all have logic maxed, and they are rubbish without it, which reduces the personalisation of hackers.


If you want to change the system (which I think works ok) why not move to skill + stat, with an equipment modifier. Give their set of programs a rating (and to be honest almost every hacker has the same ratings in all their programs), and if the program rating > skill add +1 to the roll as an equipment modifier, if it is less subtract one. That works almost as well and doesn;t spoil the fun of people getting lucky.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Seth @ Mar 3 2011, 05:15 AM) *
I like it when not every hacker is identical: now you are forcing them to all have logic maxed, and they are rubbish without it, which reduces the personalisation of hackers.

Only in the sense that magicians are "forced" to max out Magic, Willpower, and their secondary Drain stat, or street sams are "forced" to max out Agility, Intutition, and Reaction. If you want to be good at something, you must have the capability. Should the IOC accept overweight couch potatoes into gymnastic competitions in order to have a more varied field of contestants?
Fatum
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 3 2011, 01:15 PM) *

I'm pretty sure changing the font doesn't render a sentence unintelligible or meaningless. Maybe my initial comment was called for, after all.

I'm pretty sure it makes it rather unintelligible.
Advocating font changes is like advocating public defecation: "I can do whatever I want, and it's none of your business! Turn away if you don't like it!"
Tanegar
If it's unintelligible, how were you able to respond to it? Anyway, I'm tired of playing with you, troll. Go on back to your trollhole now.
Fatum
I am not responding to its contents, because the OP has made everything for me not to be able to read it. That is, it is unintelligible.
And of course asking to follow the basic rules of netiquette is trolling. Tell me more tales like that.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Mar 3 2011, 01:50 PM) *
#1) Use [Stat + Skill] Cap Hits @ Program RTG (like spell force).

This has my vote. I think any good hacker won't be too limited by the program rating, as they will be able to get 6+ when it starts to be a limiting factor.

I think there's another thread that lists a con for this approach, have to find it later...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
At our table, Kerenshara, we use option 1. Skill + Stat, Capped by Program Rating. The better the program, the more your native skills and intelligence can shine. It has worked wonderfully well. We have been using it for a while now, and it has done something quite nice. Hackers now tend to have an actual Logic Stat greater than 2. Of course, either of your choices would force that, but I have always preferred that the deciding factor be the tools that you are working with. If you have exceptional tools, you may get exceptional results. wobble.gif

I mean, really, with Option 1, you actually have a valid use for programs rated below 6. Hell, even now, I have a hacker who uses rated 3-4 programs, because they are cheaper (and thus allow me to spend more Nuyen elsewhere), and because the hacker in question cannot reliably obtain more than 3-4 hits per roll. Win, Win.
Yerameyahu
I agree: neither one is a great idea. Hacking isn't like magic. Hacking is supposed to be for everyone, and this just makes it exclusive. There's plenty of room (probably too much!) in the existing rules for novahots to excel. Why are you trying to simultaneously nerf the experts *and* the normals?

As always, I'm speaking in general; do what you enjoy in your own game. smile.gif
Seth
QUOTE
I agree: neither one is a great idea. Hacking isn't like magic. Hacking is supposed to be for everyone, and this just makes it exclusive. There's plenty of room (probably too much!) in the existing rules for novahots to excel. Why are you trying to simultaneously nerf the experts *and* the normals?

Nicely said.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 3 2011, 07:25 AM) *
I agree: neither one is a great idea. Hacking isn't like magic. Hacking is supposed to be for everyone, and this just makes it exclusive. There's plenty of room (probably too much!) in the existing rules for novahots to excel. Why are you trying to simultaneously nerf the experts *and* the normals?



From practical Play Experience, capping Hits to Program rating has no real effect in nerfing the experts (Same system mages use afterall). It MAY, on occassion, stop a single hit from applying, but that is very rare indeed. The hacker would need 18 Dice to reliably hit 6 successes on average, and that is not the easiest thing to obtain using even the normal system. Average Professional Hackers (from the Unwired Book) are rolling 11-13 Dice with this system (Option 1, note they would have been rolling 12-14 dice otherwise, witrh a possible +3 in non-stressful situation due to Nanite support, if any). It works for EVERYONE, and treats them all the same. After all, it is the exact same mechanic that the Magic Slingers use, and I don't see them being nerfed.
Yerameyahu
Actually, if this applied to 'Hacking programs' and not other kinds (Common Use, etc.), that would be *less* objectionable, but I'd still go by my last comment. smile.gif

I'm not talking about average expected numbers, Tymeaus. If a player rolls 10 and you say, 'screw you, you get 5', that is a Sad Player™. In addition, magic characters can choose Force at will, and well above the 6 limit that any SR hacker should have (because 7+ is milspec, dammit biggrin.gif ). And magic is special, hacking is everyone. Hehe.

If anything, these changes do the opposite of their intention: they make experts and kiddies more similar. The expert will more reliably get a couple more hits, but they have the same max. Hacking is now about being Mr. Lucky with Edge.
Inncubi

I already play with caps on hits on every, relevant, roll at skill rating x2.

Kerensahara, how do you make the caps work together?

Say a Hacker with Computer 2 is using and edit 3 program, is he capped by 4 or 6 successes?

Do you make both rules go? Do you have one overrule the other?


And yes this is in support of the freedom to use scripts whenever you want to.
Warlordtheft
I used option one for a while but eventually went back to raw. My reasons were: 1. The caps led to the program ratings effectively determining the outcome. If the program ratings were the same though the end result was masssive back and forth dice rolling until someone glitched. 2. Technomancers were uber powered in this scenario due to threading. 3. Not all programs (like stealth) easily convert to this rule. On the plus side though, deciding to handwavium low security systems was very easy.

Option 2 I see similar pitfalls. It would favor hackers over technos since they can boost their logic well past racial norms with cyber. There also may be some inconsistencies with some programs, as well as the fact that once logic is up above a certain point it probably is not the limiting factor.

Agents/IC-also under this system either ignore the caps to make them more challenging, or if capped at rating become useless.

Pretty much I'd suggest option 3:Stick with raw, but keep in mind the Logic 1 hacker can't upgrade his own programs in a reasonable time frame. Also, if the sytem is not likely to pose a serious challenge, handwavium should be used.
Yerameyahu
That's a font, not a script. smile.gif And it's horrifying.

Those are good points, Warlordtheft. I know Seth is also right: we discussed this in some length in a past thread. I wonder if I can find it.
Seth
QUOTE
If a player rolls 10 and you say, 'screw you, you get 5', that is a Sad Player™

Yes. Very sad. Players like rolling well. It makes us happy. This says "you cannot roll well, everything is average and dull"

I don't like it in the magic system, however the magic system in SR4 is IMO better than any previous, so I put up with it. I am delighted that the "extra dullness" factor added by capping successes has not been added to the rest of the game. YMMV
noonesshowmonkey
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 3 2011, 05:55 AM) *
I'm pretty sure it makes it rather unintelligible.
Advocating font changes is like advocating public defecation: "I can do whatever I want, and it's none of your business! Turn away if you don't like it!"


Syllogism fail.

Sweet tantrum, though. You'd give a little cry baby a nice run for their overstuffed diapers.
Inncubi
QUOTE (Seth @ Mar 3 2011, 11:10 AM) *
Yes. Very sad. Players like rolling well. It makes us happy. This says "you cannot roll well, everything is average and dull"

I don't like it in the magic system, however the magic system in SR4 is IMO better than any previous, so I put up with it. I am delighted that the "extra dullness" factor added by capping successes has not been added to the rest of the game. YMMV


That is true. Players love rolling high.

As a Gm I like challenges that don't take all my week to scale with my players, so I go with caps. It makes it easier for me to prepare runs. I also like a certain... predictability in the character's abilities. As I've said a lot of times, I make a very extensive use of 4 dice =1 hit rule, and -1 dice per roll in extended rolls.

And if a player really wants to break the caps... Include edge in your roll. /Then/ you may break the cap. Makes those rolls more memorable, in my games.

The extra advantage that I've seen with this is that stuff takes time to be accomplished. Gives the game a somewhat more "cerebral" taste, when extended tests are involved and more "pressure" when they can't be used. Not because of any "my game is smarter than yours" crap or "my game is better than yours" trolldrek.

Now, Seth, I am not trying to make you change your game. Simply trying to explain why I prefer caps. They work AMAZING for me.
Brazilian_Shinobi
What happened to warlordtheft happened to my group to. We changed to one, but as he said, Stealth is a problem. In this case, you should better think of a better way to use it (perhaps asking the player to roll it, instead of just using as a passive number).
Fatum
QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Mar 3 2011, 07:28 PM) *
Syllogism fail.

Sweet tantrum, though. You'd give a little cry baby a nice run for their overstuffed diapers.

Nice ad hominem there.
Now, here, have a chance to explain what does using insane fonts and formats add to the dialog, except for showing that the author knows the tag, and making the text harder to read?
Mardrax
Style.
We're roleplayers.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Mar 3 2011, 07:41 AM) *
I used option one for a while but eventually went back to raw. My reasons were: 1. The caps led to the program ratings effectively determining the outcome. If the program ratings were the same though the end result was masssive back and forth dice rolling until someone glitched. 2. Technomancers were uber powered in this scenario due to threading. 3. Not all programs (like stealth) easily convert to this rule. On the plus side though, deciding to handwavium low security systems was very easy.


Except that you only change the way things work for constructing the Dice Pools. The thresholds for things based upon Programs (Like Stealth) stay the same...

QUOTE
Option 2 I see similar pitfalls. It would favor hackers over technos since they can boost their logic well past racial norms with cyber. There also may be some inconsistencies with some programs, as well as the fact that once logic is up above a certain point it probably is not the limiting factor.


Technomancers are not limited in how they boost attributes, it just costs them to do so. And as for Increasing ther Hits Threshold, that is what Threading is for in our games. Technomancers do not have to spend their precious Edge to exceed the Caps based upon Program Rating.

QUOTE
Agents/IC-also under this system either ignore the caps to make them more challenging, or if capped at rating become useless.


Agents roll 2x Rating with Caps by Program Rating... which will likely be their rating unless there are Optimized Programs in use.

QUOTE
Pretty much I'd suggest option 3:Stick with raw, but keep in mind the Logic 1 hacker can't upgrade his own programs in a reasonable time frame. Also, if the sytem is not likely to pose a serious challenge, handwavium should be used.


RAW method works, but leads to those annoying characters with 1 Logic and 20 Dice to Hack, which I despise... Which is why we went to Option 1.

I do not agree with Yerameyahu, that this brings Hackers and Script Kiddies more in line with each other, because the Script Kiddies are typically the ones with the Logic of 1-2, and a Hacking Skill of 1-3... It is a Flavor that I like; but I DO understand his reservations about it.

@Inncubi... I have to agree with the reasoning that you are using for the Caps.
Fatum
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Mar 3 2011, 09:25 PM) *
Style.
We're roleplayers.
Ugly unreadable fonts have nothing to do with style.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 3 2011, 08:08 PM) *
Ugly unreadable fonts have nothing to do with style.

For you they don't, perhaps. Many of my old typographer colleagues would differ on that opinion.
Fatum
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Mar 3 2011, 11:01 PM) *
For you they don't, perhaps. Many of my old typographer colleagues would differ on that opinion.

I'm sure they'd love white monotype on light gray background.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 3 2011, 06:49 AM) *
I am not responding to its contents, because the OP has made everything for me not to be able to read it. That is, it is unintelligible.
And of course asking to follow the basic rules of netiquette is trolling. Tell me more tales like that.

Sorry, sorry, I know I said I was done, but I have to point this out. You responded to the content of my posts, which were in... wait for it... a different font! Congratulations, you have successfully refuted your own thesis. *wild applause*
deek
I've been (had been, at least) using a variation of #1. I liked the symmetry of Program Rating mirroring Force. And, there's always the possibility for me to drop some military grade programs around here and there for the hacker that is constantly losing dice to the 5 or 6 cap. I think it works great.

Now, I say a variation, because I have also house ruled skill caps, so my players are used to low skills capping their successes (my current cap is skill x 2, with defaulting having a max success of 1). This allows me to also introduce a positive quality to boost the cap to x 3 (which to date, no player at my table has needed). Also, using edge always removes caps, which gives the player an opportunity to throw a brick of dice and keep all results, which is welcomed at my table.

Now, going with #1, to raise that cap, you can give out >6 rating programs, you can use edge or, you can always create a new positive quality to let the player extend the cap. I would think something like a multi-tiered quality, something like +1 cap / 5bp with a maximum of maybe +3 could work well...
Fatum
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 3 2011, 11:23 PM) *
Sorry, sorry, I know I said I was done, but I have to point this out. You responded to the content of my posts, which were in... wait for it... a different font! Congratulations, you have successfully refuted your own thesis. *wild applause*

Sorry, what?!

Your whole argument so far burns down to "Look, I'm shitting in the middle of the street, and you're not dying from the smell! See, see, you're not dropping dead! That means it's totally ok to be doing that!"
A reasoning level hardly expected from an adult.
Yerameyahu
Take it outside, ugh. Other fonts are really annoying, and so are these little personal tiffs.
Fatum
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 4 2011, 01:58 AM) *
Other fonts are really annoying
...and that is precisely my point. Annoying, hard to read, and having nothing of worth to compensate for that.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 4 2011, 01:58 AM) *
and so are these little personal tiffs.
Well, if you know a better way to teach people the basics of netiquette, please show it to me.
TheOOB
I like the rules as written. There is an important thing to remember when comparing hackers to mages. Mages spend all their resources to be good at their magical and astral skills, but for them increasing their magical power also increases their power in the physical plane, where 80% or so of the game takes place. Hackers spend a lot of resources to be good in the matrix, and there are always new things to spend nuyen on to get better, but their hacking ability really doesn't increase their effectiveness in the meat, which means that hackers need to be able to increase their physical abilities without sacrificing their ability to hack.

The RAW does this, by making hacking primary about the gear, a hacker is free to use most of their karma to make themselves skilled in other fields. By forcing hacking to use an attribute for hacking, you are hamstringing hackers in the meat by forcing them to spend more karma on their abilities. This is especially bad because while program rating can go to 7+, some metatypes can't even get a 6 logic.

Besides that, your logic and intuition wouldn't be necessary to hack. You're ability to interface with the matrix and hack things isn't based on how fast you think or how well you can solve equations, the human mind is way too slow for that to be effective, that's what programs are for. The logic come into the software and hardware skills necessary to make good programs/equipment, so hackers allready have a reason to have a good logic. Those are powerful skills, and by RAW logic is already one of the things that separates a good hacker from a great one.
Mardrax
Writing code = coding != hacking.
A good hacker never has to touch on making actual program code in his life.

By the commonly mainstream, mass-media-boosted definition of someone who circumvents computer security systems.
CanRay
I've coded and never touched a hack in my life, Old Skool or not.

Me and electricity don't mix, as I found out the hard way.
Mr Clock
I think I'll stick with standard for now, but option 1 looks interesting. I don't tend to have 20+ dice pools in my games, so program rating as a limit isn't going to be too much of a handicap, and the notion of busting the cap with Edge sounds good for dramatic fun. It always seemed a little odd that everything else was attribute plus skill except for Matrix stuff.
TheOOB
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Mar 3 2011, 06:57 PM) *
Writing code = coding != hacking.
A good hacker never has to touch on making actual program code in his life.

By the commonly mainstream, mass-media-boosted definition of someone who circumvents computer security systems.


But a great hacker will.

Also, hacking in 2072 is way different from hacking now adays.
CanRay
A great hacker will know more about a system than the people that built it and maintain it!
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 3 2011, 03:23 PM) *
Sorry, sorry, I know I said I was done, but I have to point this out. You responded to the content of my posts, which were in... wait for it... a different font! Congratulations, you have successfully refuted your own thesis. *wild applause*

I for one don't mind font changes. Century Gothic is a nice readable font. I love good fonts. I have a massive collection on my computer.

However, the OP's posts are in a font that IS somewhat hard on the eyes, and as such some folks will elect to not bother reading it. As a graphic designer, it's not a font I would ever pick for extended amounts of text. Then again, my designer job is to get people to actually READ the messages - you will be surprised at how little it takes to make people turn away from an advertisement without reading it.

At the end of the day, though, it's not the reader that suffers, it's the person who is using the ill-advised font. Because the issue of the painful font does in fact take away from the impact of the message. It's like making a verbal presentation in a thick fake accent, just because you wanted to be "unique". Yes, you might be unique and people will certainly remember the accent, but it's also likely the listeners will not get much out of the actual presentation.

As the writer of a message, if you want your message to be heard, it's your responsibility to format the message such that it is accessible and easy to comprehend. It is NOT the reader's responsibility to jump through hoops to figure out your message.

And that's pretty much all I will say on the subject. As you were!



-k
Tanegar
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 3 2011, 05:42 PM) *
Sorry, what?!

Your whole argument so far burns down to "Look, I'm shitting in the middle of the street, and you're not dying from the smell! See, see, you're not dropping dead! That means it's totally ok to be doing that!"
A reasoning level hardly expected from an adult.

Nice strawman, but unfortunately as inaccurate as strawmen generally are. My argument burns down to the fact that your argument is nonsense, which it is; and which fact you, yourself, have repeatedly demonstrated.

QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 3 2011, 06:01 PM) *
...and that is precisely my point. Annoying, hard to read, and having nothing of worth to compensate for that.

Well, if you know a better way to teach people the basics of netiquette, please show it to me.

Except that's not actually the point you've been making. The point you've been making, as expressed by you in one of your own posts, is this:
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 3 2011, 05:55 AM) *
I'm pretty sure it makes it rather unintelligible.

Which is nonsense. The fact that you have been responding to the content of my posts, which are in nonstandard fonts, proves it. You have responded to the meaning in my posts, therefore my posts have perceptible meaning, therefore they are not unintelligible. Q.E.D. I'm prepared to entertain the possibility that you simply don't know what "unintelligible" means; indeed, now that I think of it, I consider that highly probable. If you'd like to change your thesis to "Nonstandard fonts are annoying," then I will say no more. Annoyance is subjective. Intelligibility is not.

Oh, yes, one last thing. Kindly link me to the Great Big Book of "Netiquette," because in the fifteen or so years I've been communicating over the Internet you're the first person I've seen piss and moan about somebody else's choice of font.
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