Technically, any gun can be modded to full auto, but the point stands.

"What's the word?" "Thunderbird!" You're probably talking about something different, however.

And now, back to shooting people in the crotch and the face for fun and profit.

Load APDS rounds, then you're only shooting at 11 armor.

But really, this idea of shooting down or even damaging military-grade aircraft with handheld weapons is a holdover from WW2 movies.

The problem with letting the DV modification from a full auto burst beat the armor of a relatively heavily-armored vehicle like a T-bird is that the long burst is going to shred the vehicle.

A T-bird has Body 20 and Armor 18. That means 15 boxes on its condition monitor. You shoot it with a full auto burst from an HMG, for 16 damage and a -3 AP. With one net success, your modified DV is 17, and its armor is 15. Using trade-in rules, it gets 8 hits on the defense, so you do 9 damage to it. It's well over half dead in one burst.

With the rules as they're written (and intended, nice synchronization here), you need 9 net hits. You'll do 25 damage on that full auto burst, and bring the aircraft down -- you got lucky and hit something critical.

Bringing down military-grade jet fighters (or any high-armor vehicles) with an HMG shouldn't be on the list of things you can do on a regular, expected even, basis. That's what all those AV missiles and assault cannons are for.

That's all we need, explosive APDS birdshot for hunting Awakened ducks.

Damn straight! Don't want those buggers pissed off at you!

They spit!

IIRC, that's what the Bruce Lee said as well.

Ever fired a HMG at a Modern American Tank? It might scratch the paint, if they are lucky. Full Auto does not penetrate armor any better than a single round. So your example for the T-Bird is crap. It sdould read...

"A T-bird has Body 20 and Armor 18. That means 15 boxes on its condition monitor. You shoot it with a full auto burst from an HMG, for 8 damage and a -3 AP. With one net success, your modified DV is 9, and its armor is 15. Since the Full Auto Fire must defeat the armor before additional damage from extra bullets applies, the damage of 9 vs. the Armor of 15 results in a Bounce for the attack, and the Full Auto Fire is ineffective. There is not even any need to apply damage soak rules at that point, as all the attack did is scratch the paint. Sucks to be the one who just pissed off the Tank Crew"

There is a reason that Tanks are not enganged with Bullets unless they are from an Aircraft like the A-10 Thunderbolt. Missiles are So much better at actually hurting a tank.

Though I agree with your post, this unfortunately is not the case in SR. With rockets you can't even hit the farm the barn (and its broad side) is on.

Odd, I do not generally have all that much problem with it myself in Game. And besides, I mentioned Missiles, though Rockets are another good alternative. At least for my characters.

Hmm what's a normal dice pool at your table?

A rocket scatters 14m on average, if the target does not dodge, so you need 14 hits to get the rocket on target. Additionally since rockets use the same rules as grenades net hits don't even increase damage.

I doubt that Sensor+Heavy Weapons/Gunnery builds a larger pool than AGI+heavy Weapons/Gunnery.

Use AV ammo instead and it's only 9.



Just in case it wasn't clear, the bolded part is exactly what he was saying.

17 Dice (Skill 5, Agility 9, no Specialty, No Links, Tacnet Bonus of +3) for my Cyberlogician at 316 Karma (Smartlinks/Specializations, and Indirect Fire Additions would apply, obviously, if I had any)... I will say that he is probably one of the more skilled characters at the table, with 74 Skills. Most of which are at 3 or less, he has some 5's (about a dozen or so) and a couple of 4's (Maybe 4). No 6's. SO far from optimized in this regard.

Average Gunbunny at our table has about the same Size pool. 12-14 Weapon Dice... The tweaked Gunbunny is throwing 23 Dice with Tacnet, if I remember correctly. 10 Agility, 6 Skill, Smartlink, Specialization and +3 Tacnet. For the entire Firearms Group... His Heavy Weapons (MG's?) is at a 4.

Use Airburst Linked Rockets (See the Airburst Link Accessory) or Guided Missiles (-Sensor to Drift) and the Drift becomes much more bearable... Average hits (for me when I used them) was 6-8 and average Drift is generally reduced to 2d6 (average of 7 Meters) for Rockets and by Sensor Rating for Missiles (6-8 Meters for Missiles). It Could be more or less, of course, just have not spent enough time in a War Zone to have extended useage of Rockets/Missiles, so average was what we experienced... On a Target that is 5-6 meters wide and 3 meters tall, you have a 2.5-3 Meter leeway left/right and 1 Meter leeway up-down to still hit your average Tank, if you are aiming Center mass. Think that I missed once. I have never missed with Missiles; not that I have been firing a lot of missiles, mind you. War Zones in Shadowrun are few and far between for us (We were involved in a single War Zone since game beginning, which is a shame, since that is the environment in which my CyberLogician excels). Even grenades have been fairly accurate at our table. Of ourse, with grenades, you do not have to be ALL that accurate...

And honestly, if you really want to hit something with a Missile-like attack, use Heimdall Missile Drones. It is a ramming test at that point. Never missed with one of those. And they have a lot more utility than a Great Dragon ATGM or LAAW. Only drawback is that they tend to be somewhat expensive (and often harder to get) in comparison.

Bypassing armor is limited, since you take a penalty equal to armor value so in your example that is a -24 dice pool penalty to bypass armor.

-4 dice for +4 DV nets you +2.33 damage on average. Bypassing armor nets you +0. You by pass armor to stage damage from stun to physical if you have a large enough dicepool to each the penalty. The OP is presenting a situation where by you ignore the armor bonus from flechette if you negate all armor bonus. The question at hand is whether negating armor through called shot eliminates the armor bonus provided by flechette ammo.

By the rules, I say yes. Called shot explicitly calls out "unarmored area" and AP only applies to armored targets. In this case, the target is the unarmored place on the enemy rather than the whole enemy.

Pg 161 SR4a
"Target an area not protected by armor."

Pg 162 SR4a
"AP modifies a target's Armor rating when he makes a damage resistance test."

--



You can. And you answered how yourself.

SR4a Pg 161, under called shots.

"The gamemaster may also allow other specific effects for called shots if he chooses. For example, you could use called shots to knock an opponent over a ledge, shoot out a tire, temporarily blind an opponent, etc."

I shoot my shotgun to temporarily blind my opponent?

I got your awakened duck right here!

2.33?

4 dice is 1.33 damage on average.

4 - 1.33 = 2.66.

Well, there was that unconfirmed report of a young man bringing down a low flying fighter jet in Libya by putting a rocket propelled grenade into the jet's intakes.

I suppose that's more or less in Assault Cannon territory, though.



-k

A single shot rocket propelled grenade isn't a pistol or submachine gun on full auto. It's a singular explosive device with excessive range.

I would not call the range of an RPG Excessive. Especially compared to an HMG.

I direct you to the second sentence in my post, which you quoted.




-k

I meant +2.66. Don't blame me. Blame my stomach. It was growling at me.

I meant compared to a hand-thrown grenade.



Oh, I agree with you on that point.

Indeed... Sorry

While I can't say I've fired an HMG at a modern American tank, my entire thesis was that burst damage modifiers shouldn't be counted when comparing DV against armor. The example was in the wild, wacky, "what if" land of some guy's bad interpretation of a rule. That was pretty clear.

I've never fired an HMG.

I really want to, however. Or even an LMG. Hell, I'd be happy with a rifle, actually.

I've fired rifles. Both .22 and black powder (ok, only one shot with that second one).
Ah, Boy Scouts.

Ah, living in Canada.

You would just have to move out to the sticks. And by "sticks" I mean "tundra."

Thank you, no. I like City. I don't like Not-City.

And I used to live in a place where the "Sticks" was twenty minutes away. Walking.

...

Actually, it's only a twenty minute drive now...

I absolutely adore my .54 Hawken Rifle... Totally fun to shoot, and an absolute bitch to clean afterwards...

For the record, I take out T-birds with my lightning bolt spell, magicians ARE the heavy artillery in 2072.

As for the groin attacks, yes kicking the groin is a good way to take out the punk ganger, but if I'm shooting a gun at someone, I want them dead...now, not super depressed in a decade when they decide to settle down and can't have hits. That means aiming for center mass, which is generally just filled with vital organs, and easy to hit to boot. As for unarmed combat, I still don't like the idea of kicking in the groin vs a trained opponent. The last thing I want is my outstretched leg grappled between their legs, and them VERY pissed off at me.

And a lot earlier. "Geek the Magician First" is the first rule of combat for a good number of reasons.

Especially if they're inside an armored vehicle using an armored, mirrored periscope or fiberoptic systems or some such that means you can't even tell where they are. They're thinking your tanks on fire and you can't do anything about it except for request some CAS to hit everything hoping to get the one with the Magician in it.

Also, a good reason for the crotch shot is if you need to take the magician alive, but don't want him casting spells constantly. Just continue to nut punch him, his concentration will be quite diverted.

But I thought crotch shots were lethal, getting mixed information here But seriously if you're trying to take someone alive, using an object the uses a chemical explosion to accelerate a hot chunk of poisonous metal at super sonic speeds is not the best choice, use a taser.

Taser to the junk would also work.