Hi everyone

My players surprised me with a plan to infiltrate a facility that I haven't thought of and now I need a little help.
I'm quite new to game-mastering and to SR4, so I hope my questions don't sound too stupid.
So situation is this: The team wants to bypass some security by going through the sewers. They know the area is heavily infested with feral ghouls (I established that because I thought they would then look for a safer rout to the target). So they are armed to the teeth and ready to rock.
My problem now is: From what I understand fluff wise ghouls are highly infectious. I want to give them a challenging fight. But I don't want to run the session after that with 4 ghoul characters. I could go the Resident Evil way and say 'You don't get infected even if you get bitten a bazillion times since you are the main characters' but that would be a bit cheap. Then again I don't want it like 'The ghoul sneezed in your direction, please make a new character for the next session'.
So how could I handle this and get the characters through this without making it look cheap?

If anyone had some advice, I'd be very thankfull

p.s.: we only have the SR4 Core Book, Streetmagic, Augmentation, Arsenal and Unwired. So if there are any rules in other books how to handle this, we don't have them at hand

The balanced technique that I've found is for the Infection to happen when the ghouls do physical damage with a melee attack, or if the PC glitches a damage soak test with the Ghoul in melee range.

Beyond that, if you want to reduce the infection rate--have the character make the resistance test:
3 Hits, they are fine;
2 Hits, they get a little sick but shake it off;
1 Hit, there is a lasting effect--light-sensitivity, carrier, etc.;
0 Hits, they are infected.
(This is similar to how the infection process worked in SR3)

These are all house rules, and not RAW.

have them buy Hazmat suits??!!

Have it be a tribe of hereditary ghouls that were born infected and so are not contagious.

Runner's Companion, p. 77
Born Infected
While most of the Infected are transformed later in life, the ghilani retroviruses can and do pass into the germ line, which means that the children of the Infected can be born with the Infected quality. Such “native” Infected characters are no different mechanically from any other Infected characters. They simply grow up afflicted by their condition. Only bandersnatchii, fomóraig, ghouls, and loup-garou can reproduce in this manner—banshees, dzoo-noo-qua, goblins, nosferatu, vampires, and wendigo pass the virus along in the germ line, and the fetus fails to develop properly. Characters that are born Infected are not carriers and cannot pass the virus on to others, though their children may still be born Infected. This can be represented by the Infertile Infected quality.

AH, who wrote the bit that made them so annoying has admitted they went abit OTT, this being the case toning them down seems fair


My house rule is only bites count and only if they wound IE physical damage

Please remember bite attacks suffer a -1 reach and damage of strength/2 no ap (or there abouts) so they are slightly less likely to do damage.

we houseruled the toxin vector from Contact to Injection. Very easy fix and very reasonable

Thanks everyone, those are some really usefull suggestions

I say let the characters get chewed on. If they insist on taking the obviously dangerous route which I'm sure you over described as such, then let them meet the dire fate of their decision.

It has been stated by Ancient History (who wrote the entry on ghouls in Running Wild) that the RAW are too difficult and need to be changed/ adjusted.

but Ancient History is not likely to change anything in SR4A anymore

not only does the vector need a change to Injection
the Ghoul Strain needs a Power decrease to 6 (at least)

HougH!
Medicineman

Yeah.

Right; changing to Injection isn't enough by itself, because a claw or bite *is* Injection. Alternatively, you could houserule that O-Cells apply to HMHVV and all the PCs just have to go get their 'ghoul vaccine' beforehand.

O-Cells DO apply to HMHVV.They (and a genetic Immunisation treatment ) are the only protection (IIRC) against HMHVV
but its futile to try and get it once you're bitten/infected

He who Dances in advance
Medicineman

I think they don't (which isn't the same as thinking they *shouldn't*). But there's already a huge thread about that. I suggested that the GM allow it, so we're already on the same side.

A quicker, and easier, way to solve the matter is to simply have the ghouls keep on chewing. If they eat the PC's they can't get infected, right? No need to worry about a ridiculously high chance of infection if all that's left are the bones!

Drones are your friends when it comes to Ghouls. Especially if you have another drone ready to decontaminate them with C-Squared a half dozen times over.

Oh they'll get a good fight. I just don't want the propability that they are infected should they make it through in a condition to complete the run / retreat be ~99%

I think I'll make infection through bites only and decreasing the power of the disease

Thanks again everyone

What, they don't have gnawers with them to eat the bones?

They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash!

“Buy the ticket, take the ride.” - Hunter S. Thompson

Ghouls are also dual natured.

One astral mage. Several stunballs. No problems.

Hazmat Suits and plenty of Anti-Toxin ware?

If you are nice, warn them on the hazards if they do a bit of legwork, and let them buy full body armour with chemical seals.



I second taking advantage of them being Dual Natured - mana barrier spell works nicely. You said sewers right? Cramped tight tunnels? Straight corridors? They can use it to their advantage with a well placed mana barrier, then have the team mow down the ghouls with guns.

Grenades might work as well, but would be a bit more dangerous - they can throw it back if they can grab it, or use a long stick to putt it back to the PCs if near enough, also, there's the "blast within confined spaces" rule.

Ghouls are also supposed to be blind. They rely on only hearing and smell. The players can either try to be very silent and mask their smells, or find a way to overwhelm the ghouls' hearing/sense of smell.

Alternatively, if you want to be evil, tell them they were bitten in the arm and they still have time to cut it off before being infected. Mwuahahahahah

Oh look, there's a discarded hacksaw in the corner...



They can get the arm replaced with a cyberarm, or get a vat grown replacement if they don't want to lose essence. But they'll still need to get through the rest of the run first.

It's a harsh lesson, but not something that cannot be fixed. And they'll learn better next time.

You forgot Astral Perception/Assensing. Since they are naturally dual-natured, they can use astral perception freely, without the -2 a human mage would get.

Doh! Ok, scratch that stealth approach idea.

Only those Dual born (like Shapeshifters or Dragon f.E.) don't suffer the -2
everybody Else gets the -2
and most Ghouls a transformed sometime ago

HokaHey
Medicineman

Going willfully into a large quantities of ghouls should be met with the high risk of getting infected. People are afraid of those things for a reason. As others have said there are immunity boosters that can be applied beforehand and hazmat suits. The actual infection rate though, I would say if their attack does at least 1 box of physical damage (after resistance checks etc etc) then there is a risk of an infection (unless its one of those carriers via the quality)

Try a few mock fights on your own using the players stats/abilities and see how it goes then scale from there (quantities of ghouls and balance of which are infectious). I also suggest you have one scene where there is a large wave and the players can either stand their ground, or look for a funnel (side tunnel that is cramped).

Ghouls definitely and absolutely don't suffer -2 for Astral Perception. They are for-real Dual Natured.

so a 40 Years old Mage who was Blind for 30 Years and uses Astral sight for 25 Years gets a -2
but someone who was transformed into a Ghoul last Week isn't hindered ?
makes no Sense ImO !

with an illogical Dance
Medicineman

Welcome to Shadowrun. Besides, AFAIK that -2 is for switching back and forth (or, for the blind mage, 'on and off').

The -2 is for doing any mundane Task while using Astral Perception
And I allways change Rules that make no sense (to Me, to my Groups, to common Sense)

with a reasonable Dance
Medicineman

Yes, any mundane task if you're a person who has to switch into Astral Perception. If you're for-real Dual Natured, it's always on and can't be switched off; then, there's no -2.

you can't get HMHVV by sitting on a toilet seat.

I think the "contact" vector should be bodily fluid contact. meaning claws don't infect, but a bite could. Also an outside chance of slicing one open and getting a mouth full of blood.

oh also sex with a ghoul, not recommended.

By RAW you do and thats wrong !( thats why a lot of us are....agitated and Frustrated because Fluff and Crunch are completely different)
but thats not the point of the Question.
The Question was:
Why do mages who are Blind for 20 Years + and experienes astral perception for Years DO get the -2 but recently transformed Ghouls DON'T ?

He who dances the right Dances
Medicineman

I dunno, I hear Hannibelle's just wild. . .

Just another reason to practice safe sex in the Sixth World, people! The time of Free Love is truly well and gone.

I was offering a milder interpretation of contact vector (not particularly RAW)

also the original question of the OP had nothing to do with blind mages

I still like the dancing shtick

Player characters should smear themselves with vegemite before engaging ghouls.

I use born infertile except for key ghouls. Makes them much less scary to the public and gives a great plot hook if suddenly the ghoul infestion pops up. More like a typhoid Mary for ghouls. I also knock the power to 3. Seems more reasonable.

Thanks very much
and just for the Records : We're dancing a Duet here
I also advocate very strongly to change HMHVV to contact vector Injection Vector (Sorry )and to lower the Force to 6

with a lazy Sunday Morning Dance
Medicineman

Ok so they went through the sewers last night. Long story short, the PCs did quite well at the beginning, managed to kill ghouls from a relatively save distance but finally retreated when the mage got hurt quite badly and the melee adept got literally shredded to pieces.
The mage did quite well resisting the infection. I haven't told him yet and think I'll give him a little fever for some days.
The adept on the other hand was already hurt and then got a critical glitch at a damage soaking test. I mean seriously, you have a soaking pool of 15, take edge to go to 18 and have exploding 6es and then roll a critical glitch
The character was still in the overflow area but the others refused to go back and rescue him since they were almost encircled. The adept's player suggested then he would make a new character and asked me to make his adept into a sapient ghoul NPC who bears a grudge against the group who left him to die. I think that is a quite good solution.

Because while the mage does count as dual natured while astrally perceiving, he doesn't have the Dual Natured quality (note the capital letters) a ghoul gets when he transforms (or is born as a ghoul).

Even a pixie who was born with the ability Astral Perception would get the -2.

I doubt it was intended this way. There are no attempts whatsoever to explain this ingame either, but that's unfortunately how it works by RAW.
Hey, maybe ghouls are somehow stuck halfway between the material and the astral? I wonder if there's any research on the subject...could make for an interesting run.



That's what everybody does nowadays, even Ancient History who wrote the rules we're talking about here.

Injection, I think, but yes.

1) A wizard did it.

2) Dual-Natured creatures can't shut it off. Ever. There are huge penalties involved with this -- any time, a Mage could astrally swoop in and hover 30 feet up in the air, manabolting the hell out of a ghoul, cackling, and flying off. The fact that this is mitigated slightly by removing a -2 penalty shouldn't be a huge concern.

3) Dual-Natured means that the creature interacts with both the physical and astral worlds in a fundamentally different way. In a sense, the creature is made of magic. Much in the way that they would be if a wizard did it.

No he didn't. He wrote the stuff on ghouls in Runner's Companion. Trust me.

And I'm trying to get Injection vector and Force 6 for Krieger strain (HMHVV III) into the official errata, but if I push too hard it means I have to write the official errata, and I just haven't got the time....

For some reason, I have a hankering for some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

I don't even know what a Chianti is, and I want some.

D'oh! I mean: I stand corrected.

In my game, HMHVV Krieger strain is injection vector, force 6, and anyone who doesn't have a physical sense of sight (ghouls, blind mages) doesn't take the -2 penalty for astral perception. It's more interesting that way.

It's wine. I never drink wine.