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Epicedion
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 21 2011, 02:50 PM) *
And here where you not understanding how the system works shows it self, there's a big difference between those too sources of bonus dice, name the fact that first one is limited by skill*1,5 augmented maximum while latter isn't, meaning if you have skill of 6 the latter can be combined with improved ability power at level 3, while the former caps that power to level 2.

If specialization is a skill modifier and not a dicepool modifier, then you actually need a mimimum skill of 4 to actually get the full +2 benefit and i kinda think thats somethink they would mention in the rules if in fact specialization was a skill modifier like you claim.

Even ingnoring that, adding spec before split can lead to some very wierd situations:
For example my gunslinger has both pistols and automatics at rating 4 with specialisations for semi-automatics and machine pistol respectivly, so now if all he has are non smartlinked pistol and machine pistol, he can actually get 1 extra dice for shooting his machine pistol if he also shoots at something with his pistol at the same time(The pool doesn't have to be split in half, so you can use only one dice for shooting that pistol)


Specializations add bonus dice to the skill, but do not change the base rating. That's how they word it: "bonus dice to the skill."

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 21 2011, 03:00 PM) *
Wrong again... You must split pools if you are doing two things simultaneously. Here is an example. Driving and shooting a gun at the same time. You use the LESSER of your Dice Pool, and then split from there. Some towards the Driving and some towards Shooting. Same for Athletics, when you are jumping and shooting at the same time. Split Pools. There are a lot of instances where you may be called upon to split the dice pools. You just apparently do not recognize them as such. As for the Smartlink. A Smartlink will apply to a single target shot, even if you are splitting your pools between shooting and Driving, so it is a relevant point.


I'd really like to see the rules quote on that one. I think you're either making stuff up or getting your systems crossed.

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Mar 21 2011, 03:10 PM) *
Interesting analysis, the numbers make a strong case but they're not enough on their own. Just because option A is greatly more efficient than option B where action X is concerned one can't conclude that one of the options must be erroneous. There are always better and worse ways to do things.

And whilst the ratios presented in your example are extreme, it is an extreme example (that few would survive at reasonable Force) of one sub-aspect of magic. Ultimately it makes for a small incongruence in a very few occasions of a less than usual action. Which is not enough to so conclusively deduce it mustn't be permitted.


What you have to compare it against is Overcasting, which is the preferred standard for doing more damage. Do you overcast the stunbolt, or do you cast 2 of them?

Under the FAQ logic, your Magic 5, Spellcasting 5, Power Focus 4 mage gets 14 dice for one stunbolt, or (evenly) 7 dice each for two. Multicasting you get (say) 2 hits each, doing 7S twice. The average-ish resistance might be about 1, so you can expect the target to take 12S from this action, and you need to roll against 2S Drain twice. Three spells and they're only getting 4, 5, and 5 dice, meaning they're only at slight odds to get the spell off and do the minimum 6S. Singlecasting, you get (say) 4 hits, doing 9S, with that 1 resistance, bringing you to 8S. You would need to overcast at Force 9 to get your 12S damage in, bringing the drain to 3P. Win goes to multicasting.

Under TJ and Max logic, your same mage gets 14 dice for one stunbolt, and 9 each for two. Not a huge difference. But bring the spell multicasting to three spells, and things get wonky. They're still getting 7, 7, and 8 dice, and only taking 3S Drain three times. That's enough dice to reliably beat an average target all three times, bringing the expected damage up to 18S. Bring it up to 4, and they're still getting 6, 6, 7, and 7 dice, and only taking 4S drain 4 times. That's still enough to reliably get more hits than an average defender, bringing the damage total up to 24S (and killing the target from overflow).

Also, under their logic, throw in a decently-powered Spellcasting focus and reserve it for each Drain test.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I have had mages go both ways... All depends upon the character concept and background.

Our Current Combat Mage in the group has Move By Wires 2, and a significant amount of other Ware. He still throws Spells with a Magic Rating of 6, along with 5 Initiate Grades or so. He is quite deadly. Of Course, he started out with Wired Reflexes 2 and Reaction Enhancers 2 (Both Alpha Grade) and a Starting Magic of 3.
Mäx
QUOTE (sabs @ Mar 21 2011, 10:35 PM) *
Synaptic Boosters cost you 1 essense, for 160K

That's a LOT of BP/Karma

Yes, but essence is so much more valuable then nuyen.
Wired 2 cost's you 3 points of magic, if your willing to loose that from your casting dicepools, you should just go for a mys-ad and get level 2 improved reflexes power, it only cost 2,5PP so your even get some extra power(s) for free.
sabs
That was actually my point wink.gif
Synaptic Boosters seems like a bad choice for most Magicians.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 21 2011, 02:49 PM) *
Yes, but essence is so much more valuable then nuyen.
Wired 2 cost's you 3 points of magic, if your willing to loose that from your casting dicepools, you should just go for a mys-ad and get level 2 improved reflexes power, it only cost 2,5PP so your even get some extra power(s) for free.


Geas it, and it becomes even cheaper.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 21 2011, 03:25 PM) *
Guys, we're just talking in circles right past each other, at this point. Is it fair to just say "opinions differ" on this rule, and call it a day? 'Cause personally, I don't see TJ or Epicedion changing one anothers' minds any time soon, and everyone else reading (without a dog in a fight, who may have had their mind changed by this debate) has already read both arguments about six times.


It's true that we're probably not going to change each others' minds, mostly because we place different value on the FAQ.

Where we're (generally) going to run into problems again and again (and again and again) is when people ask questions like "what build should I use for this?" and the basis for a provided build is from a school of thinking that's not necessarily supported by the rules.

And I say "not necessarily" because I understand why they think the way they do. The major disagreement we seem to have is centered around how much leeway we give the developers in clarifying their intent. I'm willing to take the FAQ at face value, and they aren't. Some folks (I forget who) have gone so far as calling it a "house rule," though I don't think either version is really a house rule.

I'm probably only arguing because the "you like just don't understand the rules man" sentiment is pretty insipid.
Critias
I wasn't out to chastise anyone, really, just point out that I thought things were getting counterproductive. Just trying to save y'all some blood pressure medication. wink.gif

QUOTE (sabs @ Mar 21 2011, 03:30 PM) *
Critias, which do you think is better for a combat mage:

Sustaining Focus R3, and the Increased Reflexes spell

Or Wired Reflexes 2

I think the focus is more "in character" for most mages, and that Wired-2 is a pretty major Essence/Magic hit. It's two thousand bucks cheaper AND you're not losing half your Essence for it, and since most mages have a talismonger contact, it's not straining credulity for them to have saved up or cashed in favors to have a focus right out of the box.

That said, for a combat mage (who's willing, or planning, to branch out and use a gun a little more often than most others) it might be perfectly in keeping with their character to do so; military training, military upgrades, and military abilities (to try and compensate for the loss of raw magical power). Wired 2 puts you on par with the default Street Sammie, after all, for pure chipped-up reflexes, and it would help the combat mage in question to dodge (not just on initiative rolls). It'd be a pretty specific "burnout" type of character concept, though, because -- again -- that's just a tremendous level of lost BP (buying Magic up just to lose 3 points of it is a pretty solid hit). For someone who's a back-up mage of the group, though, and wants to stand in as a solid back-up gunbunny, maybe it's worth it to 'em. Not everyone has to be "the best build," and this...would...uhh, certainly qualify as not the best build. wink.gif

For most characters folks might use in one of my campaigns, and for most characters I'd make, I'd lean towards the focus, if I had to choose from between just those two. One caveat is that I don't buy into the "every building worth going into is worth warding," so a sustaining focus isn't going to be a constant hassle to the character.

For what it's worth, Synaptic Boosters rest somewhere in between, to me, in terms of meeting concept and efficiency at the same time. I think SB level 1 and some cyberware goodies (to round out the Essence point) can start to make a pretty solid "jack of two trades" character, who can't decide between being a pure mage and a combat dude. And then there's the MysAd route, of course, which would be my favorite of all of 'em (but I think folks already know I dig Adepts, as a general rule).
Mäx
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 21 2011, 10:41 PM) *
Specializations add bonus dice to the skill, but do not change the base rating. That's how they word it: "bonus dice to the skill."

Which makes it a dicepool modifier(instead of skill modifier), meaning it's added after the split with the rest of the dice pool modifiers
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 21 2011, 10:41 PM) *
Also, under their logic, throw in a decently-powered Spellcasting focus and reserve it for each Drain test.

Pretty sad that i have to state for a second time in this thread that this doesn't work, hasn't worked since the first(or second at tops, can't sheck as they only offer the latest and i haven't kept the old ones) errata to the corebook.
QUOTE (sabs @ Mar 21 2011, 10:50 PM) *
That was actually my point wink.gif
Synaptic Boosters seems like a bad choice for most Magicians.

I don't know, to me it seems like a desand option, unlike the wired reflexes.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 21 2011, 01:55 PM) *
I wasn't out to chastise anyone, really, just point out that I thought things were getting counterproductive. Just trying to save y'all some blood pressure medication. wink.gif


Have to take it regardless... smile.gif

No worries though...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 21 2011, 01:57 PM) *
Which makes it a dicepool modifier(instead of skill modifier), meaning it's added after the split with the rest of the dice pool modifiers

Pretty sad that i have to state for a second time in this thread that this doesn't work, hasn't worked since the first(or second at tops, can't sheck as they only offer the latest and i haven't kept the old ones) errata to the corebook.

I don't know, to me it seems like a desand option, unlike the wired reflexes.


Well, if you are going to dedicate 2 PP's as a Mystic Adept towards Improved Reflexes, it is actually going to save you a point of Magic to go the Synaptic Boosters 2 route. 2PP or 1MP... Hmmm... Magic loses out in my opinion. If you are going to be a pure mage, though, I like the Sustaining Focus at Force 3, as it will allow you a slightly better boost for a 2 BP Savings (2 bp for the Focus and another 3 for the Binding, vs. Minimum of 7 BP for the Wired 2). Of course, the Lost magic is a 10 BP hit.

All in the character concept though. Optimal has never really been my obsession. I have been known to sacrifice that 3 points of magic for 'Ware, even though it is a less optimal build in the end.
Mäx
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 21 2011, 11:04 PM) *
Well, if you are going to dedicate 2 PP's as a Mystic Adept towards Improved Reflexes, it is actually going to save you a point of Magic to go the Synaptic Boosters 2 route. 2PP or 1MP... Hmmm... Magic loses out in my opinion. If you are going to be a pure mage, though, I like the Sustaining Focus at Force 3, as it will allow you a slightly better boost for a 2 BP Savings (2 bp for the Focus and another 3 for the Binding, vs. Minimum of 7 BP for the Wired 2). Of course, the Lost magic is a 10 BP hit.

My point was that synaptic booster is a good option, whereas wired reflexes really isn't and it would be better to go for a mystic adept route if your willing to lose that 3 magic.
So i don't know in what way are you disagreeing with me cool.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 21 2011, 03:55 PM) *
I think the focus is more "in character" for most mages, and that Wired-2 is a pretty major Essence/Magic hit. It's two thousand bucks cheaper AND you're not losing half your Essence for it, and since most mages have a talismonger contact, it's not straining credulity for them to have saved up or cashed in favors to have a focus right out of the box.


The focus is also multi-purpose. Not necessarily that great, since it's a Health sustaining focus, but it can still be used for more than just reflexes.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 21 2011, 04:10 PM) *
My point was that synaptic booster is a good option, whereas wired reflexes really isn't and it would be better to go for a mystic adept route if your willing to lose that 3 magic.
So i don't know in what way are you disagreeing with me cool.gif


Save up 2.4 nuyen.gif million for that Rating 3 Deltaware Synaptic Booster. +3 IPs for only .75 Essence. Damn the expense!
Mäx
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 21 2011, 11:20 PM) *
Save up 2.4 nuyen.gif million for that Rating 3 Deltaware Synaptic Booster. +3 IPs for only .75 Essence. Damn the expense!

Unless you have some specific ware you want to use the .25 essence, i would get biocomputability for bioware and get it as betaware for only 960k nuyen.gif and .9 essence wink.gif
Makki
get a medical facility or a cloning shop, a medicine skill and an appropriate knowledge skill and grow it yourself!
CanRay
Don't forget whatever spell it is that keeps people's feet dry! nyahnyah.gif
UmaroVI
FWIW, my opinion is that if you are getting ware as a mage, you should be getting ware that either stacks with magic, or does stuff magic does not do well/at all. I'd rather use the focus for initiative, and if I'm going to pick up ware on a pure mage it would be things like Trauma Damper, Platelet Factories, armored cyberhands/cyberfeet, Pain Editor, things like that - in particular, stuff that makes you harder to take down. A combat mage with 4 magic is still pretty dangerous and having a pile of defensive cyberware makes you a much harder target.

You can also make a mystic adept with just enough magic power to buff themselves who has ware and relies on guns for offense, but that's a fairly different sort of character from what was asked for.
Lantzer
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Mar 20 2011, 03:44 AM) *
I generally avoid armor spells, -2 sustain penalty is usually not worth the armor bonus, and if your going to use a sustaining foci/man spirit you could go better with increase reaction. Just my 2c


I generally avoid armor spells because glowing is a bad idea as a shadowrunner. It says Shoot Me!

I go for more subtle spells that make people miss.
braincraft
Increase Body is probably almost always better than Armor.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Mar 22 2011, 12:21 AM) *
FWIW, my opinion is that if you are getting ware as a mage, you should be getting ware that either stacks with magic, or does stuff magic does not do well/at all.


Something like him? cyber.gif

€dit: I should add that he's using "Wise Warrior" and not "Sky Father" as Odin.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mäx @ Mar 21 2011, 03:10 PM) *
My point was that synaptic booster is a good option, whereas wired reflexes really isn't and it would be better to go for a mystic adept route if your willing to lose that 3 magic.
So i don't know in what way are you disagreeing with me cool.gif


I am not... *shrug* It is all character concept in the end. You use what you want to match the concept. wobble.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 21 2011, 03:20 PM) *
Save up 2.4 nuyen.gif million for that Rating 3 Deltaware Synaptic Booster. +3 IPs for only .75 Essence. Damn the expense!


Always an option... Could get it for less Essence, of course, if you really tried. Add in Biocompatability to gain more bang for your buck at .6 Essence Cost. wobble.gif

Of course, Max has it down to the best option, I think...
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