Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: SR comes a step nearer
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Daddy's Little Ninja
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42258668/ns/us...new_york_times/

In robo-cop we get police as employees of a corporation instead of city employees. Obviously the source for Lone Star and Knight Errent. We are coming close to that in real life. This is an article about a California town that is elminating almost all their city services including fire fighting and outsourcing them. they expect to save 15-40% on the budget.
Sixgun_Sage
Chicago was famous for outsourcing the maintenance and use of alot of city properties and civic functions under Daly
CanRay
All I have to say is that you get what you pay for quite often.

Of course, Government Graft is a fact of life as well, and that doesn't sit as well to a Corporation. They have a word for that I think?

Embezzlement?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 25 2011, 12:20 PM) *
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42258668/ns/us...new_york_times/

In robo-cop we get police as employees of a corporation instead of city employees. Obviously the source for Lone Star and Knight Errent. We are coming close to that in real life. This is an article about a California town that is elminating almost all their city services including fire fighting and outsourcing them. they expect to save 15-40% on the budget.



Save the outsourcing on firefighting is going to the county, and not to a private contractor. I think the numbers are bunk.
Faraday
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 25 2011, 06:53 AM) *
Embezzlement?

It's only embezzlement if you get caught.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Mar 25 2011, 05:20 AM) *
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42258668/ns/us...new_york_times/

In robo-cop we get police as employees of a corporation instead of city employees. Obviously the source for Lone Star and Knight Errent. We are coming close to that in real life. This is an article about a California town that is elminating almost all their city services including fire fighting and outsourcing them. they expect to save 15-40% on the budget.


Not really. They're only outsourcing maintanence jobs to private companies. Fire and Police services will be picked up by the County.
CanRay
QUOTE (Faraday @ Mar 25 2011, 02:06 PM) *
It's only embezzlement if you get caught.

Yeah, but in some countries/counties, it's known and allowed, and maybe even accepted as just a part of doing business.

In Corporations, especially Western Corporations, not so much.
KCKitsune
You know, the only service I would NEVER wanted outsourced is the Police. Everything else can be outsourced, but not law enforcement.

I don't trust a company to do a fair job of enforcing the law.
Faraday
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 25 2011, 02:26 PM) *
You know, the only service I would NEVER wanted outsourced is the Police. Everything else can be outsourced, but not law enforcement.

I don't trust a company to do a fair job of enforcing the law.

I'd add water, food/drug safety, and electricity to that list.
CanRay
Outsourcing Telephone services was a major mistake in Canada.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Faraday @ Mar 25 2011, 07:52 PM) *
I'd add water, food/drug safety, and electricity to that list.

I can see water and food/drug safety because a company could pull a Ford and decide it's cheaper for X number of people to die then to do an action which would cost more money.

Electricity, on the other hand, is already privatized and nothing bad has happened yet.
Sixgun_Sage
And yet here in the states private phone companies massively dropped the cost of having a telephone while adding a huge assortment of services. Differant cultures.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Mar 26 2011, 10:42 AM) *
And yet here in the states private phone companies massively dropped the cost of having a telephone while adding a huge assortment of services. Differant cultures.


Same thing in Brazil. They did dropped the costs of having a telephone, still, few phone companies here do have a service of quality...

The only problem I see in privatizing some public services, are the services where profit should not be its goal.

Electricity, water, public transportation I can see private companies doing a good job to improve its profits.

Police, Fire Fighting, health care... I could see companies deciding not to attend someone or doing their job completely because the cost is greater than the profit.
CanRay
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Mar 26 2011, 08:42 AM) *
And yet here in the states private phone companies massively dropped the cost of having a telephone while adding a huge assortment of services. Differant cultures.

Different geography. The population density in the US makes running lines to even small towns affordable.

In Canada, not so much, and the Federal Government had to step in legally with a few Provincial providers to provide service to areas when the infrastructure that was built by the Crown Corporations deteriorated. (In one example, a microwave transmitter collapsed in on itself from lack of maintenance and Northern Communities lost practically ALL contact.). As some of these communities do not even have road access, and might have only a nurse at a clinic...

Edit: Sorry, this was a major issue at one of my previous jobs, where I was a filing clerk for the Provincial Health Care System.
Faraday
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 26 2011, 02:09 AM) *
Electricity, on the other hand, is already privatized and nothing bad has happened yet.

Remember Enron?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 26 2011, 11:09 AM) *
I can see water and food/drug safety because a company could pull a Ford and decide it's cheaper for X number of people to die then to do an action which would cost more money.


https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w...rotests_of_2000

QUOTE
Electricity, on the other hand, is already privatized and nothing bad has happened yet.

Dunno, in Norway one get shafted by whatever local company one use the lines of as they basically bill you for "line rental". And yes, it is usage based. So no matter what company you find to sell you the electricity cheap, the actual lines providing them to your home is maintained by the local company and they can basically slap whatever sum they want on it. Not likely that some other company will come around and build their own system of lines.
Sixgun_Sage
Enron had plenty of shady practices to be blamed for, Faraday, but they also got victimized by a lot of regulatory game playing, the fact of the matter is pure capitalism does not exist anywhere on the planet.
CanRay
Does "Pure" anything exist?

Edit: OK, other than Pure Stupidity.
CanadianWolverine
Here come the cost over runs...

Privatized infrastructure of any kind is always a mistake.
ShadowWalker
Enron was a victim of their own greed, not government regulation. They made billions off of California when California privatized their electricity.
Remember rolling black outs? Because Enron had a contract to buy electricity at a set price from companies in California they sold it back to California at double and triple the price they bought it at.
Enron went down because of their own greed, and mismanagement, plane and simple. There is a reason their CEO, CFO, et al were charged fraud and other crimes.
Wait till entire towns are run by corporations in Wisconsin. It will be lovely to loose your democracy to privatization.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Mar 26 2011, 07:25 PM) *
Enron was a victim of their own greed, not government regulation. They made billions off of California when California privatized their electricity.
Remember rolling black outs? Because Enron had a contract to buy electricity at a set price from companies in California they sold it back to California at double and triple the price they bought it at.
Enron went down because of their own greed, and mismanagement, plane and simple. There is a reason their CEO, CFO, et al were charged fraud and other crimes.
Wait till entire towns are run by corporations in Wisconsin. It will be lovely to loose your democracy to privatization.

OK, ShadowWalker, where in Wisconsin are they privatizing government services? Last thing I heard of in Wisconsin is that they got rid of collective bargaining for state workers (something that should have NEVER been given in the first place) and not privatization of government services.
ShadowWalker
The law that they passed, and published after a judge told them not to, allows for the governor to dismiss elected officials at the municipal level, and place an individual or corporation in their place to run a town or city.
The person or corporation put in this position is the one given the power to break the contracts with the unions.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/9/naomi...nti_union_bills

Faraday
QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Mar 26 2011, 06:28 PM) *
The law that they passed, and published after a judge told them not to, allows for the governor to dismiss elected officials at the municipal level, and place an individual or corporation in their place to run a town or city.
The person or corporation put in this position is the one given the power to break the contracts with the unions.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/9/naomi...nti_union_bills

IIRC, the judge put a restraining order on the Governer from putting the bill to a vote before a hearing was arranged. This order did not include the legislature, however, which brought the bill to the floor on its own.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Mar 25 2011, 09:56 AM) *
Save the outsourcing on firefighting is going to the county, and not to a private contractor. I think the numbers are bunk.


Reminds me that Pennsylvania is talking about selling the state owned liquor stores* and have the following expectations:
1) State makes money
2) Employees make more money, none of them lose jobs
3) Liquor prices don't rise

#1 is only true if you look at the short term. In the long term the state loses the yearly revenue from the stores.
#2 and #3 are mutually exclusive, if the private owners expect to make the same (or better) profit than the state does currently.
AND even if #2 and #3 aren't mutually exclusive, why isn't the state raising employee wages?

*Yes, I realize that PA is the only state left in the country that runs the liquor stores. Yes, I realize that the state should be selling anyway. My issue is with the claims they make, not with the policy (personally I couldn't care less who owns the stores).
Doc Chase
Virginia also has state-owned liquor stores.
Faraday
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Mar 26 2011, 08:19 PM) *
Washington also has state-owned liquor stores.

Although we almost changed that this year.
Draco18s
Ah, ok. One of the last few then. Point remains: selling a profitable business does not save the (former) business owner money.
CanRay
Ontario own the liquor stores AND beer stores!
Omenowl
Firefighting used to be private in the 1800s. That was until a building burned because two rival firefighting companies came and started fighting with each other on who would put out the blaze.

My problem is that when a monopoly is given to a single private organization you get poor quality and high prices so it is best to have that as a governmental function. Once you have multiple companies that compete for business then it is best to privatize the service.

What I would have liked to see if SR 2072 use 2 police forces. When you call for an emergency you can pick either Lonestar or Knight-Errant. Centralized database and the citizenry would determine who is best for their needs.
CanRay
When I was working on the idea of a "Shadows of Winnipeg" write-up, I was having the concept of the police forces split into three companies. NYPD, Inc. being in charge of first response and patrol. RCMP Ltd. having the contract for Detective and Investigative work. And Knight Errant holding the contract for Riot and SWAT.

The situation had been set up like that due to Lone Star's infamous prejudice rearing it's ugly head and having them beat a Goblinized child of a city representative so that he was partially crippled...

But, like a lot of projects I had at that time... It fell apart.
CanadianWolverine
But you kept the notes I hope Canray, that sounds like it was well on its way to becoming a fun place to run the shadows.

I know I am keeping my notes on what running the shadows of Vancouver Island, the Gulf Islands, and Haida Gwaii (formerly known as The Queen Charlottes) must be like. I think the mainland has already been covered a bit where those areas are just blank canvases for the most part that I get to put just about whatever I want into. Victoria being just a stones throw from Seattle makes for some fun times as well.
CanRay
My notes are my head. I have most of the mental picture I had no problem.

You know what, I'll see about making a new post rather than derail this one.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 27 2011, 03:33 AM) *
Reminds me that Pennsylvania is talking about selling the state owned liquor stores* and have the following expectations:
1) State makes money
2) Employees make more money, none of them lose jobs
3) Liquor prices don't rise

#1 is only true if you look at the short term. In the long term the state loses the yearly revenue from the stores.

Most only really care about the short term these days, planning 5+ years forward is a lost art. It is all NOW NOW NOW and ME ME ME...
CanRay
Oh have you got that right, Hobgoblin! The things they're doing to even long-term investments like mining are... Staggering.
Sixgun_Sage
Problem is, hobgoblin, that Pennsylvania is losing tax revenue because their citizens don't want to pay the jacked up prices, I've got relatives there, they actually head out of state to make booze runs and still come out ahead, which says something comsidering gas prices.
Sixgun_Sage
Triple.....
Sixgun_Sage
....post.
Draco18s
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 27 2011, 11:48 AM) *
Most only really care about the short term these days, planning 5+ years forward is a lost art. It is all NOW NOW NOW and ME ME ME...


So true. The "five year budget" cycle isn't.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 27 2011, 12:44 PM) *
So true. The "five year budget" cycle isn't.


QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Mar 27 2011, 12:44 PM) *
Problem is, hobgoblin, that Pennsylvania is losing tax revenue because their citizens don't want to pay the jacked up prices, I've got relatives there, they actually head out of state to make booze runs and still come out ahead, which says something comsidering gas prices.


What that says is that PA should run the liquor stores like a business. That is, the profit goes to the state, rather than putting a tax ON TOP OF the sale price and the profit vanishing into the ether.
('Cause I can tell you, liquor prices are unlikely to go down if the state privatizes the stores)
Sixgun_Sage
If a company sees how much business it is losing to out of state stores? My brother in law takes fragging orders to fill when he goes on the monthly booze run. I'm sure if he counted how much change he is keeping he'd actually come out ahead.
CanRay
As I come from Moonshine Country, I should point out the profitability of...

Ah, better not. nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Mar 27 2011, 06:44 PM) *
Problem is, hobgoblin, that Pennsylvania is losing tax revenue because their citizens don't want to pay the jacked up prices, I've got relatives there, they actually head out of state to make booze runs and still come out ahead, which says something comsidering gas prices.

Sounds like the border trade between norway and sweden, where people will organize bus trips to max out their taxfree quota on alcohol, tobacco and other products.
CanRay
Or Canadians hitting the US when the Canadian Dollar is strong enough.
Sixgun_Sage
Something like that, Hobgoblin, and don't bring up 'shiners CanRay, got some in my family tree. Don't even need to shake it, they fall out all on their own...
CanRay
Let's just say I cried when one person I know had the ancestral family still went "Ka-BOOM!". frown.gif

Or, so I heard, like, third-handed so I can't be used in a court of law. wink.gif
Sixgun_Sage
I have more than 1 family recipe that has nothing to do with plates and silverware.
CanRay
But some copper line, I bet. wink.gif
Sixgun_Sage
You would bet correctly, got recipes for proper 'shine, mead, wine, and even grog.
CanRay
Hard to get the red dye for proper Grog. The type that eats through tankards. nyahnyah.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Mar 27 2011, 05:26 AM) *
My problem is that when a monopoly is given to a single private organization you get poor quality and high prices so it is best to have that as a governmental function.

Yeah, that's usually the problem: Stuff gets privatized by taking a huge state apparatus and changing nothing but its legal form. So you get all the fun a monopoly, just with less governmental accountability.


And copper lines are not strictly necessary, just easier to shape than stainless steel...or so I've heard from anonymous third-party sources wink.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012