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Machiavelli
Acc. to the RAW the limit for actionsofts is 4, linguasofts and knowsofts are limited to rating 5 (if i recall correctly, still donīt have the PDFīs on the business computer). Somebody mentioned something about options in "Unwired" to possibly increase this ratings. What exactly would be the option and what exactly is possible?
Elfenlied
Customized Skillsofts grant you a +1 DP bonus to the skill, but the skillsoft is only usable for yourself.
Machiavelli
Cool, i was not going to share my skillsofts with other people anyway. ^^ How much is it more than the common skillsoft (it is already quite expensive). And do i have to have a rating 5 skillwire to run the customized skillsoft with 5 dices or is it still a rating 4 actionsoft just with one bonus dice?
Elfenlied
The latter, it still counts as Rating 4. Can't say off the top of my head how expensive the upgrade is, but I recall it being fairly cheap.

Skillsoft sharing is only of importance when you have a TM with biowire in your group, since he needs the original skillsoft to emulate them.
Machiavelli
Bah, we have a TM as our rigger, but i am not sharing things. That is not SR, SR is about looting.^^
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 7 2011, 01:28 PM) *
Bah, we have a TM as our rigger, but i am not sharing things. That is not SR, SR is about looting.^^


I supposed you guys could share a skillsoft looted off someone, assuming it's not personalized.

But then again, it all depends on the group and the relationships between the characters.
Machiavelli
Skillsofts are not very common because our GM never thought they could become handy. So i donīt expect an NPC to have some. So no looting....*sob*. The only thing he offers us are free Ares Alpha Combatguns, but they tend to explode all the time...^^
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 7 2011, 01:53 PM) *
Skillsofts are not very common because our GM never thought they could become handy. So i donīt expect an NPC to have some. So no looting....*sob*. The only thing he offers us are free Ares Alpha Combatguns, but they tend to explode all the time...^^


We've got a saying here that goes like this "look a gift horse in the mouth too". Check them for biometric security, maybe they're set to explode. Or you should cut down on the Ex-Ex ammo, or get a spirit with the Guard power.
Machiavelli
Already tried. We usually refuse to take this gun in the hand, because the failure-risk is strangly much higher than for every other gun. We call it the "AACG-curse". Maybe we only have the bad luck to get always the monday-production pieces in our hands, i donīt know...
Yerameyahu
Side note: SR is *not* about looting. It's about getting paid, then buying things on the black market.

He'd probably give all his 'lootable' skillsofts the Overdrive option. It's pretty nasty.
Fauxknight
The chips might max out at 4, but a higher rating system can run more simultaneous skillsofts.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 7 2011, 02:34 PM) *
Side note: SR is *not* about looting. It's about getting paid, then buying things on the black market.

He'd probably give all his 'lootable' skillsofts the Overdrive option. It's pretty nasty.

Side note: That is what they want you to believe, but basically humans are hunters and collectors and looting is much more satisfying than "earning" money. Besides that, SR is about playing a criminal, not a wageslave. Looting is absolutely fine during a run and (especially in our group) the little cherry on top of the ice-cream.
Yerameyahu
I won't get into it here, because there are already threads explaining why you're wrong, Machiavelli. ;D

There are a couple other activesoft tweaks you can get, but none are really as good as Personalized.
Machiavelli
We will discuss this topic further the next time i am in the US of A.^^

So personalized is the best, but are the other options (do i really have to read unwired???) stackable?
Yerameyahu
They're Options, so you can't have more of them than Program Rating/2 (i.e., max 2 with activesoft 4). DIMAP is kinda halfway useful.
Machiavelli
I see, i HAVE to read Unwired....argh...i mostly play mages....unwired is the book of evil....grmmmlllll
Cheops
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 7 2011, 02:21 PM) *
I see, i HAVE to read Unwired....argh...i mostly play mages....unwired is the book of evil....grmmmlllll


Unwired is the book of evil for many reasons. Hence why I usually call it Unhinged.
sabs
The power of skillsofts:

Rating 6 Skillwire
Rating 4 skillsoft + Personalized + PLUSCODE(3)=5dice, for 1 slot. You can permanently have 6 rating 4(5) skills running at any one time, and you can load them in and out very easily,.

Now you can't specialize, etc. But it's perfect for the, "you can fly a helicopter?" "I can now."
CanRay
"Where did you learn to fly a blimp?"

*Holds up a chip* "MicroDeck."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Apr 7 2011, 05:24 AM) *
The latter, it still counts as Rating 4. Can't say off the top of my head how expensive the upgrade is, but I recall it being fairly cheap.

Skillsoft sharing is only of importance when you have a TM with biowire in your group, since he needs the original skillsoft to emulate them.


Until he emulates it into a CF anyways.
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Cheops @ Apr 7 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Unwired is the book of evil for many reasons. Hence why I usually call it Unhinged.

I love Unwired! "Wish you could tell that shaman to RTFM?" biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ Apr 7 2011, 07:38 AM) *
The power of skillsofts:

Rating 6 Skillwire
Rating 4 skillsoft + Personalized + PLUSCODE(3)=5dice, for 1 slot. You can permanently have 6 rating 4(5) skills running at any one time, and you can load them in and out very easily,.

Now you can't specialize, etc. But it's perfect for the, "you can fly a helicopter?" "I can now."


Couple of Problems here...

1. Skilwires max out at Rating 5...
2. You can run 2x rating in Slot costs, so for your RATING 5 Skillwires system and Rated 4, Personalized/Pluscoded (3) Skillsofts (Costs 1 Slot in teh Skillwire System), you can have 10 of them running (5x2 = 10 Slots)...

With the Skillwire Expert System, you can even reroll failures (IIRC)...

Anyways... wobble.gif
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Apr 7 2011, 04:50 PM) *
I love Unwired! "Wish you could tell that shaman to RTFM?" biggrin.gif

Goddesses, I'm such a fucking fanboy.....

Incidentally, is there any reason that DIMAP and Skillwire Exper System both do the same thing? Are they meant to be mutually exclusive?
Makki
the problem with skillwires is their cost. and you will need to buy them legally, if you want one personalized to your own neural infrastructre. they cost almost the same in BP (2.5) at chargen as buying the actual skill (4), which you can specialize and use edge on.
If you go with pirated ones, they won't be personalized to you, unless you're a clone Iguess.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Apr 7 2011, 08:59 AM) *
Goddesses, I'm such a fucking fanboy.....

Incidentally, is there any reason that DIMAP and Skillwire Exper System both do the same thing? Are they meant to be mutually exclusive?


One is a program option that costs no essence. The other is 'Ware, which costs essence. For the Mage/Technomancer, DIMAP is a better option than the Skillwire Expert System.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 10:54 AM) *
Couple of Problems here...

1. Skilwires max out at Rating 5...
2. You can run 2x rating in Slot costs, so for your RATING 5 Skillwires system and Rated 4, Personalized/Pluscoded (3) Skillsofts (Costs 1 Slot in teh Skillwire System), you can have 10 of them running (5x2 = 10 Slots)...

With the Skillwire Expert System, you can even reroll failures (IIRC)...

Anyways... wobble.gif


Skillsofts are limited by rating, not by slots. The Rating 5 Skillwires can have 10 rating points worth of Skillsofts loaded.

So you could have a 4, 4, and 2, or 3 3s and a 1, or whatever.
Xahn Borealis
So it's no accident? I suppose it would come in handy if you had an expert system, because that would work for any 'soft you slot.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 09:25 AM) *
Skillsofts are limited by rating, not by slots. The Rating 5 Skillwires can have 10 rating points worth of Skillsofts loaded.

So you could have a 4, 4, and 2, or 3 3s and a 1, or whatever.


Or, with the options that were listed (and which were part of the conversation), you would have 10 programs, at rating 4 all running simultaneously. I know what the rules for Skillwires are, I was pointing out where the theory presented was wrong. biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Apr 7 2011, 09:25 AM) *
So it's no accident? I suppose it would come in handy if you had an expert system, because that would work for any 'soft you slot.


Indeed... That is the big benefit of the Skillwire Expert System. You no longer have to spend the Nuyen on a Program option that can now be used for something else entirely, like PlusCoded (3)... smile.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 12:38 PM) *
Or, with the options that were listed (and which were part of the conversation), you would have 10 programs, at rating 4 all running simultaneously. I know what the rules for Skillwires are, I was pointing out where the theory presented was wrong. biggrin.gif


Do the personalized/whatever benefits lower the "bulk" of the skillsoft, or do they bump up the bonuses for a lower-rating one?

For me, when they start tossing all of these bonus options at the tech, the tech starts to break. In my day you plugged a wire into your brain and that was it, and we liked it.

Also, we wore onions on our belts. Style at the time.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 09:43 AM) *
Do the personalized/whatever benefits lower the "bulk" of the skillsoft, or do they bump up the bonuses for a lower-rating one?

For me, when they start tossing all of these bonus options at the tech, the tech starts to break. In my day you plugged a wire into your brain and that was it, and we liked it.

Also, we wore onions on our belts. Style at the time.


Pesonalized Provides a +1 DP modifier to the Skillsoft. The Skillsoft is still the same rating as it was before, butr because the skillsoft has been personalized for YOUR use, it gains a slightly better boost in performance, hence the +1 DP modifier...

PlusCode reduces the Load factor of the Skillsoft. So, at Pluscoded (3), your Load (you used the term Bulk) is 1 "Slot."

The options are there to be used. That is why they are in the book. It makes absolutely no sense to "break" the Tech system because you are using available options. At most, you can get 2 options on a Program. There are more than a few in the books, if I remember correctly, so you have to pick and choose. Your stance makes absolutely no sense in this regard.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 12:48 PM) *
Pesonalized Provides a +1 DP modifier to the Skillsoft. The Skillsoft is still the same rating as it was before, butr because the skillsoft has been personalized for YOUR use, it gains a slightly better boost in performance, hence the +1 DP modifier...

PlusCode reduces the Load factor of the Skillsoft. So, at Pluscoded (3), your Load (you used the term Bulk) is 1 "Slot."

The options are there to be used. That is why they are in the book. It makes absolutely no sense to "break" the Tech system because you are using available options. At most, you can get 2 options on a Program. There are more than a few in the books, if I remember correctly, so you have to pick and choose. Your stance makes absolutely no sense in this regard.


Oi.

Skillwires sans options -- that is, before extra books were written to change them -- had a hard limit of 10 for the best rated gear, with softs limited to providing 4 skill. This could provide a nice modular array of benefits, as rating 4 skills are quite useful, but you were limited to how many you could have running at a time. If you can now slot 10 rating 5 skills because of bonuses they added in new books, you can not only keep an array of secondary skills as backups, you can pretty well replace your primary skillset with above-normal-max-rated skillsofts.

Someone was just saying they're broken as hell. That would be why.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 09:57 AM) *
Oi.

Skillwires sans options -- that is, before extra books were written to change them -- had a hard limit of 10 for the best rated gear, with softs limited to providing 4 skill. This could provide a nice modular array of benefits, as rating 4 skills are quite useful, but you were limited to how many you could have running at a time. If you can now slot 10 rating 5 skills because of bonuses they added in new books, you can not only keep an array of secondary skills as backups, you can pretty well replace your primary skillset with above-normal-max-rated skillsofts.

Someone was just saying they're broken as hell. That would be why.


See, I disagree with Muspelsheimr in that regard.

And Again, you are misisng the point. It is 10, Rating 4 Skillsofts. IF YOU HAVE THE CORRECT OPTIONS, and all the right 'Ware.

As for replacing Primary Skills with Skillsofts, you could indeed do that. So what? I have yet to see a character that does so (Muspelheimr's build notwithstanding). They use Skillsofts to cover their weak areas, so they do not have to spend that precious karma to do so.

Also, there is a vast array of skills out there. Having to stop and load a program to cover something that is your Primary ability is just silly. You do not use Skillsofts to cover primary abilities unless you are a Cyborg, who has absolutely no choice in the matter. And even so, a Trained Metahuman will be better in his primary abilities than the Cyborg will be due to hard caps of Skillsofts. No Specialization of Skillsofts means a gap of up to 4 points of ability, 7 if you are an Adept, based upon skill alone.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 01:01 PM) *
Again, you are misisng it. It is 10, Rating 4 Skillsofts. IF YOU HAVE THE CORRECT OPTIONS.
As for replacing Primary Skills with Skillsofts, you could indeed do that. So what? I have yet to see a character that does so. They use Skillsofts to cover their weak areas, so they do not have to spend that precious karma to do so.

Also, there is a vast array of skills out there. Having to stop and load a program to cover something that is your Primary ability is just silly. You do not use Skillsofts to cover primary abilities unless you are a Cyborg, who has absolutely no choice in the matter.


Am I being Punk'd?
Makki
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 01:01 PM) *
Again, you are misisng it. It is 10, Rating 4 Skillsofts.


that's 10*4*10000+10*6000=460k for someone with that kind of money, I don't care, what he can do
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 10:02 AM) *
Am I being Punk'd?


Nopt sure what you mean about that. I am pointing out that it is not as good as it sounds. You seem to disagree. I was under the impression we were having a discussion.

And Makki brings up a great point, it is 460k to do that legally, or 46k to set it up , and then a maintenance plan monthly so as not to degrade at all.
Seerow
QUOTE (Makki @ Apr 7 2011, 05:05 PM) *
that's 10*4*10000+10*6000=460k for someone with that kind of money, I don't care, what he can do


Or he can pirate it for 46k.
Makki
QUOTE (Seerow @ Apr 7 2011, 01:06 PM) *
Or he can pirate it for 46k.

no he can't, because he wants them personalized to himself, not to Mr. Superwageslave
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Makki @ Apr 7 2011, 10:07 AM) *
no he can't, because he wants them personalized to himself, not to Mr. Superwageslave


You could probably have Pirated stuff Personalized, it will just cost money and time to have the personalization programmed into the Skillsoft.
Seerow
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 05:08 PM) *
You could probably have Pirated stuff Personalized, it will just cost money and time to have the personalization programmed into the Skillsoft.


Eh I forgot we were talking about personalized skillsofts. Still 40k for 10 rating 4 programs isn't bad.
Makki
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 01:08 PM) *
You could probably have Pirated stuff Personalized, it will just cost money and time to have the personalization programmed into the Skillsoft.

it will still degrade, but you changed the code and can't get a patch any more. you will either have to patch yourself start again
Epicedion
Skillwires: 5 x 2000 = 10k
Activesofts: (12000 + 4000 + 4000) x 10 = 200k

All for the low, low price of 210k. Availability on the Skillwires system itself will be a kick in the teeth, requiring Restricted Gear quality, but there's no reason you couldn't start a character with 10 rating 4 (+1) skillsofts. You'd even have enough cash left over for some wired reflexes.

Edit: If that wasn't clear, it's 12000 for the rating 4 skillsoft (4 x 3000), then 4000 for each program option (4 x 1000) tacked onto each rating 4 skillsoft -- pluscode and personalized.
Xahn Borealis
Do Skillsofts degrade? I can understand how Matrix programs go down in rating due to updates and patches/whatnot, but that's meant to represent that your old tricks don't work anymore. I'm pretty sure a Pistols Skillsoft from the 60's would work fine for shooting people right in the face.
Makki
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 01:25 PM) *
Skillwires: 5 x 2000 = 10k
Activesofts: (12000 + 4000 + 4000) x 10 = 200k

All for the low, low price of 210k. Availability on the Skillwires system itself will be a kick in the teeth, requiring Restricted Gear quality, but there's no reason you couldn't start a character with 10 rating 4 (+1) skillsofts. You'd even have enough cash left over for some wired reflexes.

Edit: If that wasn't clear, it's 12000 for the rating 4 skillsoft (4 x 3000), then 4000 for each program option (4 x 1000) tacked onto each rating 4 skillsoft -- pluscode and personalized.


skillsofts cost Rating*10000 since SR4A

@Xahn Borealis: I think it's a balancing thing. But by RAW all programs degrade. UW p.109
Xahn Borealis
Sure, but fluff-wise I just can't see it.
Machiavelli
I hope so too, otherwise my new character-option is a case for the trashcan.
Seerow
Honestly, even with degradation, it's a manageable cost.


Assuming you can't get personalized skillsofts pirated (or can't download patches for ones that are)


Rating 4 (40,000) + Optimization (or whatever the reduced slot one is called) (4000) = 44,000 each.

x10 = 440,0000.


Pirate them, 44,000.


Rating 3 would be 34,000 each instead. For all 10, 340,000. Difference of 100,000 per month, upkeep cost of 10 grand.


It's pretty pricey, but affordable, costing about as much as a high lifestyle. How affordable that is really depends on your playstyle, but I know I could deal with that cost easily enough, it would just eat into my upgrade money.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Makki @ Apr 7 2011, 01:35 PM) *
skillsofts cost Rating*10000 since SR4A

@Xahn Borealis: I think it's a balancing thing. But by RAW all programs degrade. UW p.109


Oh, I didn't catch that in skimming the SR4A entry.

Carry on, then.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Makki @ Apr 7 2011, 11:10 AM) *
it will still degrade, but you changed the code and can't get a patch any more. you will either have to patch yourself start again

Well, yeah, of course... biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Apr 7 2011, 11:38 AM) *
Sure, but fluff-wise I just can't see it.


Planned Obsolescence... It forces you to keep replacing/upgrading the software.
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