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Elfenlied
Hello all,
I've got a quick question: If you're strapped for points (let's assume Karmagen), and had to choose a combat skill, what would it be? IMO, you can either choose a high automatics skills or a combination of a low pistols skill and a medium longarms skill. Now, each have their repective advantages:

Automatics:
+versatile (anything from +2 concealment to +6 concealment)
+high damage output through autofire
+cheaper (Karmawise)
-difficult to bypass hardened armor
-high ammo costs
-cannot compete in the high-end damage/range segment

Pistols+Longarms:
+even more versatile (anything from -4 to +6)
+high damage (Sniper Rifles, Shotguns)
+lower ammo costs
-more expensive (Longarms 4 + Pistols 2 costs the same as Automatics 5 (34 Karma), assuming you specialize)
-access to high caliber rifles will likely be difficult


Now, what do you guys at dumpshock think about it?
Summerstorm
Well, small arms have a HUGE plus with being concealable AND also accepted in many situations. No one ever looks at you wrong carrying agun in public. While an automatic weapon you have to smuggle around.

I would enter Heavy weapons into the count though.

- Has an "Sniper-Rifle category (Railgun, Panther etc.)
- Mass anti-personal or payload (Grenade Launcher)
- Pistol-Like anti-personal (Grenade pistol)
- Automatic Fire (LMG's and such)
noonesshowmonkey
What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?

2 x 4 + 2 (spec) for rank 2 pistol (spec) + 4 x 4 + 2 (spec) = 28 build points, leaving you just two shy of rank 3 Firearms group, and just a couple of karma short of spec.

I never understand why people think it's cool to be God's gift to pistol shooting but, when passed a real firearm like a rifle, be about as useful as a drooling idiot.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Apr 7 2011, 01:29 PM) *
What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?

2 x 4 + 2 (spec) for rank 2 pistol (spec) + 4 x 4 + 2 (spec) = 28 build points, leaving you just two shy of rank 3 Firearms group, and just a couple of karma short of spec.

I never understand why people think it's cool to be God's gift to pistol shooting but, when passed a real firearm like a rifle, be about as useful as a drooling idiot.



QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Apr 7 2011, 01:15 PM) *
Hello all,
I've got a quick question: If you're strapped for points (let's assume Karmagen), and had to choose a combat skill, what would it be?


Emphasis mine. Firearms 3 costs 35 Karma, compared to Longarms 4 + Pistols 2, which costs 30. Now, I'm not sure if the extra proficiency is worth the extra cost.
noonesshowmonkey
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Apr 7 2011, 07:34 AM) *
Emphasis mine. Firearms 3 costs 35 Karma, compared to Longarms 4 + Pistols 2, which costs 30. Now, I'm not sure if the extra proficiency is worth the extra cost.


I guess that, when I am strapped for points, I take skill groups at one rank lower than I would splitting that group for the sake of having a high and a low skill. I'd rather be versatile than over specialized when points-strapped. I mean, if firearms skills are where you are looking to save points, then you aren't a shooting character. Else, you'd be specifically spending your points there.

To reiterate, I have found Group 3 to be better than Skill-a 2, Skill-b 4.

Finally, I don't know the Karmagen rules well, but can you spec a group skill with it? If so, have your cake and eat it, too. Firearms Group 3 and spec into whatever you want from there.

Anyways, to the OP: automatics are hard to beat for versatility.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Apr 7 2011, 08:29 AM) *
What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?


It contains three skills rather than four. All of the three count skill groups are narrowly tailored in the sense that you need to use or have reason to expect to use all three skills in order to justify the cost. The four count skill groups also require the use or reason to use three skills but you at least have some variance within the group.

If you are strapped for points, as the original poster is, it's generally a bad idea to take an option that requires MORE points unless it can allow you to reduce points needed elsewhere.

QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Apr 7 2011, 08:45 AM) *
I guess that, when I am strapped for points, I take skill groups at one rank lower than I would splitting that group for the sake of having a high and a low skill. I'd rather be versatile than over specialized when points-strapped. I mean, if firearms skills are where you are looking to save points, then you aren't a shooting character. Else, you'd be specifically spending your points there.


Honestly, I don't like the Firearms skill group. Of all the three count skill groups, it's probably one of the least versatile that is of interest to PCs. On any given run you're most likely to use one skill in the group rather than more than one. If you use two it's almost always going to be Pistol + Automatics or Pistol + Longarm. Rarely is it going to be Longarm + Automatics. Using all three is going to be exceedingly rare. If you're looking for versatility, the firearms group may be better replaced with skill wires and activesofts.

Also, this may just be my interpretation, you cannot acquire specializations on a skill group unless you raise one of the skills outside of the group. So there is no gameplay difference between Firearms(4) and Skillwires with Active Softs (4) for Pistols/Automatics/Longarms.

--

As to the OP's question.

Without the context of what you want your character to do, my instinct to save points is to go straight longarms or straight automatics. If you're dead set on getting pistols with longarms then I would do 1 rank with a specialization rather than 2 ranks. That's a benefit of +4 dice over defaulting and you save 2 karma over going with automatics 5.

Pistol 1 (Spec) + Longarms 4 (Spec) = 32 Karma
Automatics 5 (Spec) = 34 Karma
Elfenlied
The character in question is hacker/rigger, who is in need of a weapon skill for those missions where she needs to run in the meat. She's a secondary combatant.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Apr 7 2011, 08:07 AM) *
The character in question is hacker/rigger, who is in need of a weapon skill for those missions where she needs to run in the meat. She's a secondary combatant.


My suggestion is take Throwing Weapons 4 and specialize in pistols*.

* This is an internal joke with my group's hacker who had a pistol with bad agility and no pistol skill.

--

Serious responses.

If you're going on runs in the meat, why is concealment a desired trait? You're in a location you shouldn't be in. If you've been spotted concealment doesn't matter. Concealment is a trait when you're moving in places you could be in and are trying to hide a weapon you shouldn't have or when you're hiding a weapon on your person while engaged in social engineering. I'm not sure if either of those situations apply to your need for a weapon.
Yerameyahu
Don't forget to go find the last thread about this exact question. smile.gif

I still say Automatics. It's one skill.
squee_nabob
I'd suggest either automatics or pistols + heavy weapons. Heavy weapons are much like longarms but better in terms of firepower, and a pistol with stick n shock is pretty good for a sidearm. If you were to go automatics, you'd want:

Machine Pistol,
either SMG or AR depending on your recoil compensation. Do you have a gyromount in a cyberarm? if yes, you can go SMG, otherwise go AR. Either way pick up the speciality guns like the executive predator (it is a briefcase with an SMG in it). You can also get guns like the ingram smartgun X which has a built in suppressor and is only restricted if you want, or the ingram mach 100 (high velocity at a reasonable price).

For Pistols + Heavy Weapons:
Burst firing pistol. Several of these exist.
AK-98, cammo coated, reduced barrel for your grenade launcher
add missiles, rockets, or assault cannons as needed. I am personally not a big fan of HMGs, but you may differ.
If you are abusing MRSI (i.e. using) software, grab an automatic grenade launcher and that solves all your problems.
CanRay
HMGs have their place, But Shadowruns have to be mobile, so they're not usually on Shadowruns.

Of course, there are some groups that swear by Mortars...
Hida Tsuzua
I would recommend either Automatics or Pistols + Heavy Weapons due to the dominance of burst fire and especially automatic fire in SR. It isn't too hard to get at least 5 RC on an automatic (Gas Vent 3 + Personalized Grip/sling + innate/stock) so you can do two burst fire shots. Since you're using SnS (who doesn't?), that's 8S -1/2 AP damage which is on par with most longarms. If you can get more recoil compensation (arm gyromount or extra mods), you can do long burst + short burst FA for 11S and 8S -1/2 AP which is even better. With work you can do HV, that's 11S and 11S -1/2AP. If you have trouble hitting, you can switch from narrow to wide bursts to decrease the target's dodge pool. There are a few pistols that can do burst fire, but they typically can't do full auto or have great problems getting enough recoil compensation due to limited modification and accessories choices.

Automatics are fairly concealable so you have your damage and your concealment too. With Chameleon Coating and concealable holster, that's -5 to spot. Since an automatic pistol has a +2 base and a SMG has a +4 base, you can easily reach default light or heavy pistol concealability. While pistols obviously can go much lower, this should be more than "good enough". Otherwise, you couldn't just have a heavy pistol in a concealable holster. If they are using MAD or cyberware scanners, you're in equal trouble pistol or assault rifle so that doesn't matter. There's also the Executive Protector which is a SMG disguised as a briefcase which is quite handy.

Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2. In addition, this covers fairly expensive and illegal Barrett 121 versus a fairly easy to get, legal, and cheaper AK-97. If you're using SnS, then skill is what really matters not DV since you can force that Hussar or LAV to shut down with a good enough shot.

If you remove SnS (which while sober I agree is a valid opinion), things become a bit murkier. SnS is the great equalizer in damage codes and without it base damage matters which hinders the "my heavy combat gun is my conceal gun" appeal that Automatics has. I'll cover the Pistol + Heavy Weapons combo and its appeal in a later post.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 7 2011, 06:22 AM) *
Don't forget to go find the last thread about this exact question. smile.gif

I still say Automatics. It's one skill.


Automatics is a Good One, no doubt. After all, Anything a Pistol can do a Machine Pistol can do too (except for the Concealability) ... Same for Assault Rifles and Rifles.
Mäx
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Apr 7 2011, 06:31 PM) *
Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2.

Except that nothing stops the barret user from calling a shot for that same +4 to DV.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Apr 7 2011, 08:31 AM) *
Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2.


Dubious, at best. The combined rationale of Spraying and praying (Wide Burst to reduce their ability to react) and Calling a Shot (for better accuracy) is a bit ludicrous, don't you think? It would never fly at our table.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Apr 7 2011, 07:22 AM) *
I would enter Heavy weapons into the count though.

- Pistol-Like anti-personal (Grenade pistol)

This.

Also a grenade launcher is multipurpose. You need to knock a group of people out (but can't use a stunball), use narcojet gas grenades. You need to take out that drone, use a HE grenade. You want to take care of a bunch of beasties, use a frag grenade.

All this in a small package. You just have to carry the clips for it.
CanRay
Neruostun. Narcojet is an injection chemical. Of course, mixing with DMSO is a good idea.

The flipside is that ammo for grenade launchers is really bloody expensive, and not as easy to get. You can't just skip into the local Stuffer Shack to pick up some boxes of 40mm Grenades like you can .45 ACCP for your Colt Cobra.

Or, if you're lucky, the drive-thru. "I'm two blocks away, I want a pair of SoySloppies with extra relish, three Q-Cola TrollGulps, and a box of 10mm Caseless. You guys want anything?"
Epicedion
Buy Firearms group. The first thing you can do once you start earning Karma is buy specializations. This is of course assuming that you're playing a game that isn't all running all the time. You need that Pistols skill whenever you have to go out in public.

As for the "what's the most versatile," my answer is Automatics. It covers everything from machine pistols to assault rifles, and works for full auto as well as single shots.
CanRay
The most versatile weapon my group has found is the Metahuman Body.

Especially if you bring your own Dwarf trained in unarmed combat.
Epicedion
QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 7 2011, 11:21 AM) *
The most versatile weapon my group has found is the Metahuman Body.

Especially if you bring your own Dwarf trained in unarmed combat.


Or a Dwarf with a pointy helmet for the Troll to use with his Thrown Weapons skill.
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 7 2011, 04:45 PM) *
Except that nothing stops the barret user from calling a shot for that same +4 to DV.


While true, there is the -4 to hit that the automatics can trivially compensate for. The end result is the same, there's a narrow band of armor values where sniper rifles can hurt that automatics can't. However, you rapidly get beyond both firearm's penetration values so it doesn't matter which you use. If you're below that range, automatics do more damage due to how automatic fire works. So longarms are better at a subset of a subset of targets (trying to destroy vehicles with armor scores between X and Y). There's also the wide full auto burst, called shot to bypass armor, longshot test that lets you just blow away a panzer too even with otherwise meager edge scores (which would be harder for a longarm to do since it can't reduce the defense test of the target). grinbig.gif

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 04:48 PM) *
Dubious, at best. The combined rationale of Spraying and praying (Wide Burst to reduce their ability to react) and Calling a Shot (for better accuracy) is a bit ludicrous, don't you think? It would never fly at our table.


I've always assumed it's firing in a cone in the area of the called shot. You're not expecting every bullet to hit that spot, just one even if the target moves or your first shot is off. Also a wide burst isn't spraying and praying. Skill still matters and can allow for more damage. It's merely not going for as tight a grouping.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Apr 7 2011, 09:51 AM) *
I've always assumed it's firing in a cone in the area of the called shot. You're not expecting every bullet to hit that spot, just one even if the target moves or your first shot is off. Also a wide burst isn't spraying and praying. Skill still matters and can allow for more damage. It's merely not going for as tight a grouping.


Bad assumption. Wide Burst are automatic weapons fire. If you are using "Wide" there is no semblance of Grouping at all. Try it sometime. If you are Aiming, you are not firing Wide.
Belvidere
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 12:26 PM) *
Or a Dwarf with a pointy helmet for the Troll to use with his Thrown Weapons skill.


Or a Troll with a pointy hat and your dwarf adept throwing friend.

Remember kids, metahuman bodies do (body/2)S
KeyMasterOfGozer
What about Gunnery instead? If you are a Hacker/Rigger, then maybe you can run a drone to do your shooting for you?
Yerameyahu
That hardly counts, but I think it was an option on the poll in the last version of this exact thread. smile.gif
KeyMasterOfGozer
Heh, yeah, well being a Computer hardware and software developer myself, I can tell you, our mindset usually falls along the lines of ... Never do what you can write a shell script to do... even if it takes you ten times as long to write the script. biggrin.gif
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 04:57 PM) *
Bad assumption. it is automatic weapons fire. If you are using "Wide" there is no semblance of Grouping at all. Try it sometime. If you are Aiming, you are not firing Wide.


I think there is a range between "all 6 bullets or no hit someone in the eye" and "vaguely point at the right direction" in an abstract system like Shadowrun. There's also suppressive fire for when you're not trying to aim at all and appropriately skill matters far less there. Skill matters even when firing wide (extra hits add to damage) so there has to be some aiming involved.
Epicedion
I'd just toss out Wide Bursts. They don't really make a whole lot of sense when you consider suppressive fire.
widdlyskwids
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Apr 7 2011, 10:31 AM) *
Since you're using SnS (who doesn't?), that's 8S -1/2 AP damage which is on par with most longarms.
Stick-n-Shock is 6S(e), not 8S(e).

QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Apr 7 2011, 10:31 AM) *
Automatics are fairly concealable so you have your damage and your concealment too. With Chameleon Coating and concealable holster, that's -5 to spot. Since an automatic pistol has a +2 base and a SMG has a +4 base, you can easily reach default light or heavy pistol concealability.
In my opinion, it's kind of questionable that you could get any kind of bonus from a concealable holster for an SMG-sized firearm. How would it be any different in effect from a sling? Setting that aside, I think you would need to apply a chameleon coating to the holster as well if you wanted to receive the full bonus from the gun. (Unless the concealable holster completely covers the gun, in which case I don't see how the coating would come into play at all.) Additionally, I wouldn't allow any bonus from the coating if a character is being patted down during a physical search. Hands don't have eyes.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Apr 7 2011, 03:05 PM) *
I think there is a range between "all 6 bullets or no hit someone in the eye" and "vaguely point at the right direction" in an abstract system like Shadowrun. There's also suppressive fire for when you're not trying to aim at all and appropriately skill matters far less there. Skill matters even when firing wide (extra hits add to damage) so there has to be some aiming involved.


Again... The assumption is that you hit with ONLY a single bullet with Wide Bursts. Since no additional damage is inflicted by increasing the number of bullet impacts. Instead, you are increasing the chances to hit because you are spraying an area and hoping something actually hits. Yes, net hits still apply. for the round that hits. Notice that the damage is no less if you Fire a Single Shot vs. a Wide Burst... Still base damage + net hits (as opposed to a Narrow Burst which DOES add additional damage because it assumed that more than a single bullet impacts).

Suppressive fire is a lot different, because not even Net Hits matters in the damage calculation. Net hits raise Threshold instead. And suppressive fire is not really designed to inflict damage. It is designed to inflict a situational penalty to keep your opponents head down so that you can maneuver to a more favorable position with out them shooting you.

Suppressive Fire is not the Same as a Wide burst.

I would not allow a Called Shot Wide Burst, It is not thematic to what you are doing. You want to call a shot with Burst Fire, use a Narrow Burst.
Yerameyahu
Psh. You're using a wide burst to be *sure* to hit that one weak spot with *one* bullet. It's quite obvious. A narrow burst called shot would get +4 *and* +burst DV. This is different. You're paying -4 DP, so you obviously are aiming. Fair's fair.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 7 2011, 05:52 PM) *
Psh. You're using a wide burst to be *sure* to hit that one weak spot with *one* bullet. It's quite obvious. A narrow burst called shot would get +4 *and* +burst DV. This is different. You're paying -4 DP, so you obviously are aiming. Fair's fair.


See, Functionally, I disagree... Having fired Many Tens of Thousands of rounds, from many different weapons, I just do not agree with that concept.

It is a Silly little pet peeve of mine. wobble.gif
Epicedion
My semi-informed opinion is that if you're not trying to hit the target (which you're not, because you're spraying around him instead of directly at him), then you're not trying to hit the target. Area fire seems more like the mechanics for suppressive fire, to me.

SR3 avoided this issue by having burst fire and full-auto attacks step up the dodge target by 1 for every 3 bullets fired, as well as the damage resistance target and damage code. Side note: burst fire in SR3 was ridiculously awful to be caught in. I had a security guard practically saw the mage's right arm off with an HK227 once.

I see SR4's point in making it more damage or harder to dodge, but I think suppressive fire covers the second condition well enough that you don't need to also do wide bursts. Especially since you can catch multiple people and block access to whole areas with one suppressive fire action, and there's no -9 penalty to your roll.
Yerameyahu
If you wanna change the rules, change them. Don't 'interpret' them to be different based on personal logic. wink.gif
Epicedion
I'm not changing the rules on Wide Bursts, I just don't see much of a point to them. If you've got enough dice to burn 9 of them on making it harder to dodge, you're probably just as well off (or better) just firing a single shot.

If I were going to change the rules, I would split the difference between -dodge and +DV somehow, but I haven't put a lot of thought into that.
Yerameyahu
There are also 3 and 6 bursts, and you shouldn't have RC 0. Duh. smile.gif Also, you probably have more Shoot dice than they have Dodge dice, so you're trading DV for greater *surety* of hitting. It's certainly a situational choice, but some of those situations are key. Shooting a vehicle or a spirit, for example, is the difference between a useless Narrow burst and a useful Wide Burst. *shrug* If I'm using SnS, it's more important to land *a* hit than a huge Narrow hit, because I want to apply the shock -2, and force a Disorientation test. See? Options are good. Called Shot is another, wholly independent option.

I actually wrote up an alternate system that collapses Wide and Narrow bursts together. It's simpler, and has worked acceptably in very limited playtesting. It's similar to the SR3 way, I guess, though it's been so long since I played SR3. smile.gif You can search for it if you want, I posted it around here.
Epicedion
I found this:

QUOTE (Yerameyahu)
1. No Narrow or Wide, just +DP per extra bullet (i.e., take the Wide dodge penalty as a +DP); what this does is remove the 'wasted bullets' from Wide bursts (after their dodge is 0), and remove the complication of choosing Narrow or Wide. Net hits count (as normal) toward beating armor.

2. +1 DV per 3 bullets (Short +1, Long +2, FA +3); this compensates for the removal of Narrow, keeps the +DP from being a literal 'RC bonus', and rebalances (encourages) bursts for damage (running the numbers, this brings things between Narrow and Wide). This bonus does not count toward defeating armor.


Just to make sure I get it, an example:

Joebob fires his White Knight LMG. He has an Agility + Heavy Weapons pool of 10, which includes his smartlink. He's using the stock, so he gets 6 points of RC. The gun has a DV of 6P.

If he fires a full auto burst of 10 bullets, he gets a dice pool of 10 +9 - ( (9-6)x2 ) = 13, and does 9P damage.

This would be instead of a dice pool of 10 - ( (9-6)x2 ) = 4, and doing 15P for a narrow burst, or inflicting -9 on the dodge attempt for a wide burst.

That about right?
Yerameyahu
Let's not mess up this (admittedly duplicate) thread about Versatile Weapon Skills, but…

I forget which version I eventually settled on. The weaker option, I think. Using a heavy weapon complicates things (x2 uncomp recoil), as you know.

Otherwise, looks about right. In simulations using the mooks from SR4A, it should produce successful attack rate and damage totals some where in *between* the existing Wide and Narrow options. You do gain a little from not 'wasting' the extra Wide penalty, and it *is* harder to clean dodge… it's all in the thread. I can dig up the spreadsheet, if you like.
--

I still say Automatics are best, simply because they're the most effective in the most *common* situations.
Epicedion
The spreadsheet's not necessary, I can see how it would work out in various situations, and it seems pretty reasonable. I'd probably prefer it to RAW, as well.

And I concur that Automatics are the most versatile.
Cain
QUOTE
I would not allow a Called Shot Wide Burst, It is not thematic to what you are doing. You want to call a shot with Burst Fire, use a Narrow Burst.

You obviously haven't done much hunting, then. Calling a shot with burst fire or a shotgun with birdshot is a common practice.

Anyway, I'm going to go Pistols on this one. They're cheap, easily obtainable, legal in most areas, and can do a lot of what you want them for. As a backup combatant, you don't need the power punch of a heavy weapon or longarm; if you do need a bigger kick, go for called shots and specialized ammo. If you really want to cause a mess, load any hold-out with SnS and go to town.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 7 2011, 06:00 PM) *
I would not allow a Called Shot Wide Burst, It is not thematic to what you are doing. You want to call a shot with Burst Fire, use a Narrow Burst.


Honestly, I never even thought of doing that! If I ever get to play my weapons expert again, I'll have to do that more often when I'm carrying burst fire shotguns.
wanderer_king
On a rigger any way (assuming your a drone rigger with a half decent setup on combat rigging) I would go gunnery. Gunnery is all weapons attached to a drone, regardless of what skill normally would normally apply to the gun, allowing an unmatched versatility. There are many cheap drones out there allowing a decent range of selection of drone bodies, and allow you to purchase multiple drones, each with a different weapons payload. If you rigger is a wheelman and not setup for drone rigging, defenitly go automatics (depending of course on the house rules in play.) You may want to talk to your gamemaster about what specific house rules/rules interpretation are in use. For example at our table automatics only comes into play when a gun is being fired in an automatic fire mode (burst fire, full burst.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 7 2011, 09:03 PM) *
You obviously haven't done much hunting, then. Calling a shot with burst fire or a shotgun with birdshot is a common practice.

Anyway, I'm going to go Pistols on this one. They're cheap, easily obtainable, legal in most areas, and can do a lot of what you want them for. As a backup combatant, you don't need the power punch of a heavy weapon or longarm; if you do need a bigger kick, go for called shots and specialized ammo. If you really want to cause a mess, load any hold-out with SnS and go to town.

Well, lets see, I have hunted for well over 30 years... And I am sorry, I do not send Automatic weapons fire into my flight of geese or ducks. One Shot. Maybe Two.

Calling a Shot with Burst Fire is NOT common in any place that I have ever hunted (How many Automatic Weapons do YOU hunt with routinely? I know a BATF person who would like to speak with you). smile.gif

Sorry, but I do not generally hunt with automatic weapons. Shotguns are their own issue, since there is more than a single chunk of lead coming down range with a single shot. I do agree that it is harder to avoid, especially with shotguns with Cylinder Chokes. Which is why they use the Wide Burst Mechanic. Not because they are firing more than a single round, but Because it makes it harder to avoid the shot. However, it still remains that a shotgun is NOT using a Burst Fire to set this up, unless it is (an Automatic Shotgun, which you only find in the military, and is not a hunting weapon, unless you are hunting people).

Same goes for Land based animal hunting, including People. Spraying Automatic weapons fire is for keeping someones head down. Targeted narrow groups are the purview of what SR4 calls Narrow Burst. 3 rounds, AIMED, on target. A wide burst is to put rounds in the General Direction in the Hopes that you can actually hit someone that is trying not to be. It is a completely different mecahnic from the target narrow burst of the Spec Ops team trying to eliminate their target. Suppressive fire is neither of the two.

-----

As for weapon Choice. I prefer Pistols, but Automatics is often hard to pass up for its versatility.
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (widdlyskwids @ Apr 7 2011, 09:59 PM) *
Stick-n-Shock is 6S(e), not 8S(e).

In my opinion, it's kind of questionable that you could get any kind of bonus from a concealable holster for an SMG-sized firearm. How would it be any different in effect from a sling? Setting that aside, I think you would need to apply a chameleon coating to the holster as well if you wanted to receive the full bonus from the gun. (Unless the concealable holster completely covers the gun, in which case I don't see how the coating would come into play at all.) Additionally, I wouldn't allow any bonus from the coating if a character is being patted down during a physical search. Hands don't have eyes.


I'm factoring in narrow burst bonus damage into those calculations so 6S(e) + 2 is 8S(e). Honestly if SnS didn't get bonus damage from narrow bursts, it'll help a great deal to keeping them in line. Sadly that's a houserule.

As for concealable holster for SMGs, it's fair to allow it. There are plenty of small SMGs out there in real life and while they all have +4 concealment mod, that's still concealable. As for no penalty from chameleon coating for pat downs, while not RAW, I agree with you. However, that's still not that much a difference. Since concealment modifiers are halved, a SMG is only +2 dice over a heavy pistol and 3 over a light pistol. A machine pistol with the oddly restricted shortened barrel mod is as concealable as a heavy pistol. A similarly modded SMG is +1 over a heavy pistol and +2 over a light pistol. Also a lot of concealment boils down to the opposed palming check so if you want to hide anything, you better invest in that.

There's a difference, but it's so minor for the larger degree of options and power you get out of it. Automatics isn't a case of being the best of every niche. It's got a solid answer to every common situation a shadowrunner will find himself in while being among the best at the majority of shadowrun combats (SnS spam against living beings).

I'm assuming you already have Gunnery and are just looking into an option for when you have to show up in the meat. If not, follow the advice of the others and grab that first. Something you use rarely isn't as important as something you'll use most of the time. Also, if you have a respectable Agility score, you might be able to skip buying a skill and just default. Between smartlinks and tacnets (up to 6 dice), you might have decent enough roll to just live with it and use the karma elsewhere. I would aim for a reliable dice pool of 12 before doing this though. That way, you have a 70% chance of hitting a Renraku Red Samurai (Reaction 7). If you wide burst, you can go lower (much lower if you wide long burst).
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 8 2011, 05:32 AM) *
Well, lets see, I have hunted for well over 30 years... And I am sorry, I do not send Automatic weapons fire into my flight of geese or ducks. One Shot. Maybe Two.

Calling a Shot with Burst Fire is NOT common in any place that I have ever hunted (How many Automatic Weapons do YOU hunt with routinely? I know a BATF person who would like to speak with you).

I could point you at any number of NRA events, but why bother? I'll just call Bulldrek on this one and let it be.

Anyway, pistols. Yes, I agree with you on pistols. I don't find automatics to be especially versatile, although they do occupy the niche between pistols and automatic heavy weapons.
KarmaInferno
Hunting is not target shooting, and neither is combat.

What you might do at one, you often would never do at another.

Before I moved to NY from Texas and had to give up my guns, I also hunted regularly. Never have I seen hunters using burst fire at animal targets, even the ones I knew had FFL title 2 licenses. I will qualify this that when I say hunting, I mean going into the woods with at most a handful of other people and spending hours either stalking or sitting in a blind waiting.

Saw it plenty at shooting events, but those were mostly directed at targets like paper bullseyes and junk cars. I tend to put those NRA events where a whole mob of shooters is gathered in a fixed firing area to shoot released birds or other game into this category, as it's not really hunting in my eyes. It's target shooting, just with moving targets.

I have never been in actual gun combat so I cannot speak to that situation.





-k
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 9 2011, 01:53 AM) *
I could point you at any number of NRA events, but why bother? I'll just call Bulldrek on this one and let it be.


NRA Events ARE NOT HUNTING... I thought that you knew that Cain. wobble.gif

QUOTE
Anyway, pistols. Yes, I agree with you on pistols. I don't find automatics to be especially versatile, although they do occupy the niche between pistols and automatic heavy weapons.


Indeed...
Yerameyahu
It's not called a 'niche' when it's huge. smile.gif
Seerow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 9 2011, 04:36 PM) *
It's not called a 'niche' when it's huge. smile.gif


Sure it is, it's just a big niche.
CanRay
What's the most versatile weapon skill?

The one you have to use whatever is available after you've been severely beaten and left for dead while the ghouls come up to eat your bones...
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