While running an adventure last night, a few queries came up that I was unsure of, hoping that I can get some clarification here.

If a mage has invisibility on himself and is standing in a room,
1.) What does another mage see when he assenses said room?
2.) What does a dematerialized spirit see?
3.) If the same spirit were materialized, would it see anything different?
4.) When the invisible mage casts a fireball, does that give a good indication of where the invisible mage is (This one caused the most argument of the night) ?

One character is shot for 7P and has 5 body, 2 willpower and 10 points of armour, downgrading the damage to stun. Is the roll body+armour (15) or willpower+armour (12)?

It's the second initiative pass of a combat round and a mage uses a simple action to summon a spirit and her next simple action to command it to attack a group of 5 gunmen taking cover on the opposite side of the street,
1) Does the spirit get to act in that initiative pass, or does it wait until the next combat round?
2) Is attacking group of X grunts a single service?
3) If a prime runner is taking cover with the 5 mooks, does 'attack everyone who was taking cover there' include this individual if he leaves the area?
4) Is the immunity power inherent to all spirits measured against the base damage of the weapon, or against the total damage from an individual attack? For example, a pistol does 5P but the shooter rolls 12 successes on the attack for an effective total of 17P damage. Against a force 3 water elemental with a hard armour of 6, is this attack kept or discarded?

Invisibility:
1) The Mage.
2) The Same.
3) Nope.
4) Yes, elemental spells travel from caster to target. Fucking fast though.

Invisibility doesn't work on the astral plane (or even if it does, it won't mask itself) so they'll see both the mage and the spell. It doesn't matter if the spirit is materialized or not, since a materialized spirit is dual (and so able to see the astral plane). The difference is that the materialized spirit will be able to see that the mage isn't visible in the physical plane. It might conclude that the spell is an invisibility spell or that the mage is astrally projecting.


On the physical plane, the fireball starts from the mage and travels towards the target so it'll help to locate him but not reveal him.


Body. Damage (excluding spells and other special cases) is always resisted with body, be it physical or stun.


- Summoning is a complex action.
- If the spirit has to materialize to attack the gunmen (which is probably the case) it'll take him another complex action.
- Attacking the group can be considered as a single service: "attack those guys". It doesn't matter if one of them is a prime runner, though the spirit might try to bargain a little if one of them is a powerful spirit or mage. If someone leaves the area, it's up to the spirit to decide whether he still has to attack him or not. It'll depend on how the order was given, how clever the spirit is and what the spirit would prefer (or how much he likes the mage).
- It's against the adjusted DV (total damage), not taking into account the burst fire damages.

Thanks for the quick responses!

So, spirits and assensing effectively disregard the invisibility.

After casting the fireball, non-magical opponents could
a) Shoot at the mage with blind fire penalties?
or
b) Roll Intuition + Perception before being able to fire on the mage?

Sorry, to clarify, the spirit is being called, not summoned.
What I'm still unsure of is when the spirit could act. Would it be able to act in the same combat round it was called and given a command, or would it have to wait through any remaining initiative passes and act only on the following combat round?
The reason this came up is that the mage was low on health and knew that the gunman had remaining initiative passes. It thus became important to rule whether the spirit would act in the same initiative pass as it was given the command or whether the gunman would get another opportunity to fire at her.
Edit : Also, the service was to use the power 'Engulf', I did not run this as requiring manifestation; am I wrong in this assumption?

I suspect the OP meant 'calling' which is IIRC a simple action. I believe (AFB) that the spirit must wait until the next IP, but even if this is not explicitly stated in RAW it makes sense: spirits don't sit around their home plane with a held action specially for their summoner – if they did then they might as well hang out with him from the point of summoning and thus save him a simple action in calling them up.

You mean 'materialisation'?
You were wrong I'm afraid. Powers require the critter and the target to be on the same plane.

And now for the kicker: Does the spirit need to STAY THERE to SUSTAIN it?

If it is Physical, I would say Yes (I know, it is a gray area)... After all, in the example above, it is really hard to engulf something if you are not actually there to engulf it.

Immunity to Normal Weapons only cares about the modified damage value, which is defined as the base DV plus net hits. That means burst fire doesn't help, so you're probably better off doing a wide burst against higher force spirits.



Not by RAW. Targeting requires line of sight, but sustaining does not. We house ruled that sustaining requires LOS because otherwise you can get into some scary situations. Imagine a bound spirit putting Confusion onto an enemy and then jaunting back home for a year and a day.

Much better:
Great form Earth Elemental.
Let us say Force 8.
Use QUAKE Power on City of your chosing.
Run like hell and hide.

Per Street Magic, actually, you can Engulf someone then leave and sustain it. See the clarification under the listing of "Engulf" in SM. Also, that is in general how touch-range sustained things work. It is fairly silly but that appears to be the intention.

Hmmmmmm... Okay...

Assensing works against Invisibility because Invisibility works against light, while Assensing "sees" things with a more mystical sense that sees life and magic, not night. It's very tricky to hide from assensing with magic.

To use a power on anyone, you need to be on the same plane, so a spirit can only engulf a mundane when the spirit is materialized. However, you can continue to sustain powers even if you change planes. (Yes, in the case of Engulf that's very peculiar.)

In addition to the spell origination and movement being visible, don't forget the Spell casting can be noticed test. The more powerful the magic the more likely it is seen. While the spell effect is obvious in this case, the actual casting will also be detectable in some way.

Has this been taken out by errata?

Street Magic p. 95

"Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit
to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it).
Therefore, a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would
need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so,
and both actions would only require one service (though it
might immediately go back to astral plane while sustaining
the Guard effect, depending on what other services it was performing
at the time)."

Nope

Sustaining in astral makes sense, but can they really sustain from the metaplanes? I guess it makes sense because it is a two way street. Otherwise a spirit could just hop over to its home plane to escape any hostile sustained magic. But are bound spirits able to go to their home plane in the midst of doing a task? I guess so. For some reason I just never thought of them doing so.

Nothing stops a bound spirit from returning to its home metaplane. In fact, they probably spend most of their time there, unless thay have been recalled for some reason.

Thanks for all the responses! It's given me a lot of clarity regarding the things that were giving me hassles; invisibility especially.

I think, for my group, seeing as a spirit must enter the physical plane to use a power (this I did not know!), I'll rule that it must remain there for the duration as well.

Going to be running the group again this Wednesday and I'm sure there'll be more interesting conundrums to come.

Wish me luck!

Obliging it to tag along in the physical while using powers like Movement and Concealment as well? Basically obliging it to include itself as a target in either, or have the power be fairly useless? I'd restrict that ruling to offensive powers, myself.

Also, to add to the invisibility question, the assensing would see the astral form of the spell as well.

To provide some clarity, assensing is the /sense/ (keep in mind 'seeing is a misleading term here') you use when astral. Wether a projecting mage, an astrally percieving adept, a spirit or what have you. A dual natured being (like a materialised/possessing spirit, but plenty of paracritters as well) continually perceive both the physical world through physical senses, and the astral world through the astral one.

A spell's effect only affects the dimension it was cast in, so if you want to be invisible on the astral, you need to cast the spell while astral. This is a fairly pointless exercise since the spell itself can be seen clearly.

Would you apply penalties to a mage using assense to locate and fire at a second, invisibly mage?

The normal -2 dice modifier for astral perception for somebody who is not by nature dual natured?

Errr not specificly being forbidden to do something is not the same as being allowed to do it. I don't see why people think you don't need LOS to sustain, I'll agree it's soemthing that i"d like to see codified but it's not like the rules of magic change jsut because you've already shaped the mana.

You mean that a mage who casts Invisibility on a chummer and subsequently fails to resist it has his spell automatically cancelled? You mean you need to constantly keep someone you've Influenced in sight?

Influence is a special case spell so after you have sustained it for FX2 rounds it no longer needs to be sustained. But yes if a mage goes out from the drain of a sustained spell it goes away.

In addition to what others have said, there's this:
"Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a
threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with
the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the
caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver
is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is
evident (+2 dice)."SR4A p. 179

The previous paragraph mentions noticing physical cues by looking at the spellcaster, so maybe a few penalties should be added. That is, assuming no one has electronic vision augmentations.

So . . wait . . Should spell casting not be bloody obvious while astral perception is being used?
And does that stack with being awakened?

I would think it is, though I can see a possible way they can say "Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.)" and also say that casting is not obvious to astral perception. Maybe the spells themselves, once fully formed, have enough aura to automatically identify them as spells, but while they're being cast they could be mistaken for random background count.



Definitely. If you're astrally perceiving and awakened you get +4. If you're just awakened you get +2, and if you're just astrally perceiving you get +2.

Just as a Note: You cannot astrally perceive if you are not awakened. If you are ever astrally perceiving, you would get +4, if not, you get +2.

Just as a note: that is blatantly false. The unawakened can astrally perceive while in an astral shallow or rift (SM 116). They can also astrally project (and thus astrally perceive) via the magical compound Shade (AR 78).

Dang! I was ninja'd AND proven wrong on what I wanted to say in one fell swoop!

Wow... How wrong you are...

Shallows or Rifts are Special Circumstances that are rare and elusive. As for Shade, you are correct. But, in either circumstance, Mundanes cannot pick up/Use the Assensing Skill, which will preclude them from actually ASSENSING (SINCE YOU CANNOT DEFAULT), thus they cannot obtain the Bonus for Assensing as magic is cast... See, ONLY AWAKENED can Assense. It requires you to have a Magic Attribute of at least 1.

Perhaps, I don't see where it says you need a Magic rating of 1 can take the skill. It says only characters capable of astral perception can take it and gives examples of Magicians and Mystic Adepts. Based on the text it looks like someone who lived in a shallow or was a habitual shade user could learn the skill over time, though as with all vague rules it would be up to the GM. Where's the rule about needing a magic of 1?

Not that it matters to the debate, since I never said they could use the Assensing skill nor did you say they couldn't (at least not until you started shifting the goalposts). I was replying only to your erroneous statement that they could not astrally perceive, not anything you may have wanted to say but didn't.

i think this was actually clarified in SR3 somewhere, because i remember some part of a text basically stating what Jim just said.

ONLY AWAKENED can have Magic Skills (With the exception of Arcana). They are Non-Defautable. Therefore, if you do not have a Magic Rating, you cannot take them. Says so right in the books.

Here, let me quote it to you...



SO... Unless you are awakened, you cannot take Assensing. What more really need be said?

And it was not shifting the goal posts so much as having to clarify something that should not need to be clarified. It is in Black and White what the requirements are. A Quality (or Race for those races that are awakened by default) AND a Magic of 1 or Better. I should not have to clarify edge cases where it does not even matter. Mundanes Cannot Obtain the Bonus, which is what you were saying. That is, as you so eloquently put it, blatantly false.

Who is Jim?

*Shrugs* Perhaps he meant Tym?

Actually Tymeaus Jalynsfein, you're wrong. Astral Perception from Street Magic pg 24, allows a mundane to have astral sight and to learn Assensing. The quality is quite worthless, but it can happen.

Read it again.
It is a Quality, that provides a Magic Atrtibute of 1. If you lose even 0.1 Essence, then your Magic Attribute drops to 0, and then you can no longer Assense, as you need a Magic Attribute to Assense. Not making this Up KCKitsune.

Relevant Text:


Once that Magic Point is Acquired, thy are now no longer Mundane, but Awakened, if only minutely.

"Characters taking this quality acquire a Magic Attribute of 1"

Again, where does it say that a magic attribute of 1 is a prereq for the Assensing skill?

Tempo?

Acknowledged that there are Drugs that allow Perception. But the Bonus that prompted this line of discussion was in regards to Assensing a target, which is an Assensing Roll. Not the same thing. Mundanes, regardless of how they perceive the Astral World CANNOT ASSENSE.

I will admit that I should have said Assense rather than Perceive. But as I said Earlier, the discussion presumed that Assensing was the requirement (as that was what was being talked about). I saw no reason to clarify that when I made my previous statement.

Theoretically, someone who once had the ability to perceive astrally could learn to assense, and then lose their ability to perceive but still retain the skill. At a later point, they use something to astrally perceive (drugs or astral rifts or whatever), they could use assensing again while astrally perceiving.

Assensing REQUIRES a Magic Rating of 1 or better to use. I agree that they will keep the skill, but unless they can raise their magic back (somehow) to 1 or better, then it will not matter.

Remember, once your magic is reduced to 0, you become a mundane once again. No Longer Awakened. A Burnout for all intents and purposes.

You keep saying this. Where is this rule? It's not under the Assensing skill description, nor anywhere in the skills chapter.

If I remember right a cyberzombie can pick assensing - despite having whatever magic it might have had burned out something fierce. I would make an exception to the 'need 1 magic' for assensing - as long as you have astral perception you should be able to use it.

I quoted it above... Fortinbras was kind enough to quote it again.

Cool. We cross-posted when you first quoted it, so I never saw it.