20x Centipedes 4 1K each
1 x Armadillo 12F 20K
1 x Nimrod (if you can) 18F 75K (post char gen)
1 x Crimson Samurai 10R 9.5K
3 x Micro-Tapper Bug 8 1K each
2 x Repeater Drone 6 3K each
3-5 x MCT Fly Spy 6 2K each
1 x Lockheed Optic-X 6 1.7K
2 x MCT-Nissan RotoDrone 6 2K each
2 x GM-Nissan Doberman 6 3K each

That is a nice drone setup. Lots of tools, for lots of options.

Maybe Machine Sprites have that quality built in, because their job is controlling drones.

As for using Command...well, how does a Sprite control a Roto-Drone then? Or anything else requiring a vehicle skill that can't be defaulted on?
Having the Sprite replace the Pilot (and use the Autosofts from provided by its skill) is the most hassle-free way and also works fine with fluff. You just need to decide whether a Sprite shall be allowed to use normal Autosofts.


@Ascalaphus: As written above, my suggestion is the Doberman + Armour + White Knight LMG and the FlySpy with R6 sensors and various vision enhancements. Also interesting:
- That police drone from Arsenal
- RM Wolfspinne (German Arsenal, can be found in DK's character generator)
- Stormcloud (eye in the sky)
- Larger combat drones IMO do not make much sense, of course also depends on the style of your group

I'm just very interested in what other people consider to be useful drones, and why.

Well...

Most of the drones my CyberLogician uses are there for Observational/Surveillance purposes.

FlySpys
Optic Xs
DragonFlys
Centipedes
Crawlers
Stormclouds

I use the following for Combat purposes

Rotodrones
Heimdalls
Dragonflys
LEBD-1s
Dalmations

There are also several I use from "This Old Drone," Mainly because they are fairly easy to come by, if a bit outdated.

Predators
Wanjida

Probbaly does not help a lot, but those are my choices.

Sengir, that's not really Machine Sprite's job, though. They're just the closest. As for controlling a roto-drone or any other with Command… it's all Command, all the time. That's already how it works for everyone: Command does everything, regardless of any circumstances. (Yeah, it's kinda stupid-good, except for that one 'all actions are Complex' drawback.) Having the vehicle skill is another source of DP, but it's the same as any Drone without a Maneuver autosoft.

So, the consensus is Sprites Command via Command? That is their only method?

Well (IIRC), unless a Sprite is in a Resonance Realm Chillin', or on a Remote Task, it MUST be in the same node as the Technomancer. So yes.

Awesome, glad that was hashed out.

I personally love Ford LEBDs. Probably the ultimate multipurpose drone: it flies, it shoots, and it has a mechanical arm for non-combat stuff.

And it doesn't just barely fly either. It actually has decent stats across the board.

Programs replace attributes in the Matrix (SR4A, p.226: In Matrix tests, the attribute portion of the test is replaced with a program or Matrix attribute). So if you default on a skill, you default on the program rating instead - the typical script kiddie thing, I have no clue but a program to do the job. But if a skill can't be defaulted on, the greatest program becomes useless.

And unregistered Sprites CAN be sent on a remote task, it just costs all remaining owed services. Which doesn't really matter if the Sprite was only compiled to control that drone

Make it look like an eyebot and I'm sold.

That's what pimped out ride is there for, isn't it? O.o
Also, swarms of FlySpies with AntiTheft SafetyMeasures that can deal enough electrical stun damage attacks to power seattle for a week or so . .

Me too, because the only problem I have with the LEBD is that it has a (rather large, judging by the illustration) rotor. Kinda sucks if you need it indoors, hence I prefer walking drones with Gecko Tips


Another idea I had was using a Blimp mounting an internal turret with a huge sniper rifle as remote-controlled "death from above". Problem is, the Stormcloud is too small and the Zeppelin too big, so you have to mod something. But a car on a blimp frame is not exactly inconspicuous...so I'm still waiting for something lighter than air and with a Body somewhere around 8...

And if I read the rules correctly... sprites are still limited by the response of the node they're in.

So compared to the normal low-cost pilot 3 program, you're not going to get a huge increase from a sprite unless you're spending the big bucks on response upgrade chips.

Each sprite has a rating that is equivalent to the Pilot rating of an agent and determines its other Matrix attributes. A sprite’s Matrix attributes are independent of the attributes of any node in which it is running; it runs on other, inexplicable resources.
SR4A, p.240

Thank you for pointing that out, I was trying to find that.

But still it doesn't address another potential problem I see. "equivalent to the pilot rating of an AGENT"

The sprite would not replace the pilot rating of the drone as best I can tell. It would simply run in the drones node in addition to the 'drone-specific' pilot program which replaces it's OS. Otherwise it would be akin to saying a sprite in a commlink replaces the OS and system... and you couldn't crash the node w/o crashing the sprite which doesn't make sense. Nowhere can I find anywhere that a sprite can use software/autosofts loaded into the drone. Only thing I'm sure of is it can use it's own complex forms.

To be viable for a combat drone though it strikes me at a minimum you'd need a rating 6 machine sprite (command CF, then two autosoft CF's). One manuever and another gunnery autosoft. Though the use of it's diagnostics power to someone actually rigging the drone and maybe even to the drones inherent pilot OS might be usefull.

I'm sounding this out to make sure I have the right of it....

I'm a fan of the Dragonfly. Sure, the weapons suck, but its a small easily concealable hoverdrone. In my last game, the team rather liked using Disguise skill to work it into clothing. Not because its a hidden weapon, but because our rigger had ones with good sensors.
Also, the dragonflies price makes MUCH more sense when you realize its description says it comes with Ultrasound, which cost a 1000Y (Since drone statblocks don't include sensor loadouts, the only place it can go is on its Camera, hence the huge price).

The Crimson Samurai is notably hilarious becuse its armor/body/speed ratio is such that it works with a Ram Plate out of the box, doing no damage it itself. Haven't used it in play, though.

Micro-tapper bugs from Arsenal, with some gecko tips are rather excellent for what they do. Paired with some Myomeric rope from the main book, fiberoptic cable, duct tape, and a microcamera you suddenly have a remote controllable snake cable. I would however, consider giving it a Toolkit via special machinery(like the mister fixit drone)

The LEBD-1 is excellent, though the Hawker-Siddley Mixcoatl from Milspectech deserves an honorable mention: Its like a rotodrone except better, and more expensive.

For whats its worth, during the finale of my last game, our team got a ton of use out of some heavily modified Dalmatians.(not doberman). Because they're flying urban police drones, we modified them to accept a pilot(rigger coccoon), chameleon coating and spoof chips, backed that up with some hacking to make sure they wouldn't be noticed, and used them to ferry the team around in plain sight. I mean, its just a drone going somewhere. There's no way a person could be inside, right?
The hard part was fitting the ejection seat inside.

I think people assume a person couldn't be inside because a person *can't* be inside them.

I don't understand. The dalmatian is not a minidrone or microdrone. It's a medium drone. The rigger cocoon is a standard mod, so it fits. A person goes in the rigger cocoon. What am I missing?

It's a Large drone, but it's a drone. It's a lightweight vec-thrust surveillance drone (it also costs freaking nothing), so there's even less reason to assume it could accomodate a passenger. Unless otherwise noted, drones don't carry passengers, and there's no reason to assume they'd have any internal space for them. At best, you're duct-taping a person to the bottom.

The rigger cocoon is an armored bag/seat that fits where a seat usually does; a replacement. It doesn't create a new seat from nothing.

My bad, I was looking at the doberman.
As for seating:
"It consists
of a seat completely surrounded by fire-resistant ballistic cloth,
reinforced by metal plates to prevent someone from merely
sticking a sword through it, and including cushions and harnesses
to keep the rigger from rattling around."

I read this as adding a seat, since building it around a seat would create too many weak points.
If built into a vehicle, it would have to take out a seat. On a drone, I see it as looking like it does on a Tachikoma (Ghost in the Shell, not Shadowrun).

The quote on large drones mentions that they are typically not meant to have passengers, and this is the only thing I could think of that could create that implied exception. The exception is definitely intentionally implied, because the paragraph above that on medium drones says that "They are unable to carry
an adult metahuman".

The metal plates on the cocoon should give it enough structure to be riveted onto a drone. As for the question of weight, I dunno. I imagine a rigger cocoon might make up the difference between the weight of a normal metahuman, and a troll, which would be bad as per the example in your quote.

"Microdrones can only be equipped with microdrone modifications; minidrones can
only be equipped with microdrone and minidrone modifications;
all other drones and vehicles can only be equipped with
standard modifi cations"AR131
Just quoting this for the heck of it. I'm aware we're discussing whether the rigger cocoon is a specific exception.

You're right: *when* "built into a vehicle, it would have to take out a seat". It replaces it, or fills a large available empty space (like in a truck). It definitely doesn't mean 'create a new space inside a no-passenger drone for an armored seat'. You can't base your reasoning on 'the general rule doesn't say I can't'. That's called a loophole.

The bit I quoted clearly explained that a Large drone could *maybe* carry someone on top or as external cargo.

(While it's not a question of structure—we're talking about a seat already—, I understand the metal plates to be armor, not structure. If you're 'riveting' seat *onto* a drone, that's external; hardly a way to "ferry the team around in plain sight".)

Tachikomas are built from the ground up to have a passenger option. They have a large empty space, and moving parts to accomodate entry. Honestly, I'm fine with attaching a chair to the top of a drone (I'll bet it flies well that way, hehe). It's just the idea that you can magically fit a whole person (plus an armored chair) *inside* a drone that's a problem. Usually, people at least have the shame to specify that the loophole is only for pixies.

C'mon, a drone doesn't need all those useless things like energy sources, weapons, motors, logic circuits, and internal structural supports.
Seriously though, I was talking about adding the cocoon on, not putting it inside.
Not like it needs to be inside with 20 armor, 10 structure, and 5 bonus dice against crashing and loop-the-loops.

Dang, I forgot he was trying to be unobtrusive.
As for the metal plates, I guess that would be right. When I originally saw rigger cocoons, I just skimmed over that and read it as a metal frame. On that last post, I interpreted the high structure and armor as rigidness. Oh well, you can still duct-tape it on.

That's the sort of look I was talking about though. A big passenger compartment that doesn't fit in the body, but rather just stuck on the back.

Ah well. You guys win.

Just a quick reply on all this but... Why not have a Machine Sprite run Diagnostics on the drone that the TM is jumped in to? Unless you're hoping to have multiple drones do awesome things, then how about a couple of registered sprites run Diagnostics for the Pilot system of Drone X?

I ask myself, "What is a Drone?"
And look, I go find the descriptions of drones as a class of vehicle.

p. 244 SR4A, the section titled Drones. While there is a lot of more general stuff, you may be interested in the sentence,
"Drones (and only drones) are incapable of carrying passengers and
are instead fitted with an integral rigger adaptation (p. 348)."

The next sentence implies you can have passenger drones, but that's because you can turn a vehicle into a drone. But note it starts as a vehicle.

That's from the main rule book core definition of a drone, not the specific special cases that come in other books.

While this is normally true, however, a Large Drone is a Standard Vehicle for mod distinctions, which is all you need for a Rigger Coccoon, which CAN have a person inside it.


Also, at body 4, its the size of a small tank(comparatively), Using the steel lynx for comparison. If medium drones(Steed, Orderly) and Large Drones(crashcart, from the core book, even) can carry people then you can't really point at an outdated rulebook to say 'oh no, it doesn't work like that', when newer rules quite clearly say they do. The upper size range for a body 4 drone is a small car, and even a humbug fits two. Not comfortably mind you, but it does.(also on page 102)



Gee. So the core book says drones can't have passengers, and then newer arsenal says drones CAN have passengers if they say so. Gosh, I wonder which is right. There's nothing wrong with the exception taking precedence over the general - but the rigger cocoon lets you take it a step further and apply it to other things.

On a side note, I'd recommend limiting rigger cocoon's armor on drones to that of the drone itself. it doesn't make sense that it would be tougher than the frame its mounted on - and it uses barrier rules, which are even harder.




You're not. Thats exactly how it works - plus some size/comfort considerations for the specific product involved when the GM looked it over.

I do get the idea some of you are getting to hung up on that drones don't normally carry passengers. That's just because normally they don't get manual control nor seats - but on a big enough drone, you could put those in.

This is exactly the kind of munchkin reasoning I was talking about. It makes sense… if you ignore everything else you know about the game. For more examples, see the whole Broken Rule thread. Don't encourage longbowrocks to cheat.

Arsenal says that drones can have passengers in exactly 3 situations: medical drones, someone literally sitting atop the drone, or someone literally carried as cargo… presumably from a hook.

Ascalaphus, I agree. I just don't agree that there *are* any drones big enough (well, maybe cargo drones, if they exist); not the Dalmatian, anyway. There's no room. It's not a question of 'aw, no captain's chair?'.

I agree, it's pure munchkinism at it's worst. It's no different than when you see someone trying to put a monster gun on miniscule weapon mount where the gun ends up much larger than the drone itself.


I don't see a problem w/ the concept... but it makes sense that every bit of space on the drone is already taken up though. At the very least it should require a large drone IMO.... and then I'd require 2 different mods to make it work... and probably hit it w/ the over-modded penalty on top as a speed/handling penalty...

Look at the 'special machinery/storage' mod... the drone itself doesn't have space available inside it, even if the 'rigger cocoon' is slapped on. At best at that point you've added a noticable external cargo 'pouch' which should be detectable by visual sensors in something as simple as a tacnet... (uses sensors to identify drones/weapons/etc... it only makes sense if the rone has a non-standard silhouette it may raise red flags).

Personally I don't see an issue w/ slapping rigger cocoon on any of the medical 'wheelchair/crashcart' drones. Another drone I wouldn't have a problem w/ a rigger slapping a cocoon in is the Ares Auxilia Mk3. It's a large cargo drone w/ armored cargo bins... It's a good way for the Rigger to protect himself while on the run w/ the rest of his team. (due to the prevalence of signal blocking paint and such... I have issues w/ people claiming radar will see through it and let them control/shoot through many walls). But like the entire vehicle mod section, you need a little bit of common sense.

Ah, good point: the Auxilia is definitely a cargo drone, and certainly with space inside for passengers. I think there's also a cargo drone flier in the book, but I got the impression it carries cargo like a S-64 Skycrane (externally, underneath).

Yeah there's the Kull. But it's only a medium drone and not designed for combat (no armor whatsoever). (which to me means, no internal storage whatsoever). It carries cargo in 2 underwing hardpoints. And you'll need an airstrip for it (no VSTOL, fixed wing).
Std. Upgrades: Special Cargo (2 exterior airdrop cargo mounts), Signature Masking 1.


I'd like the drone a bit more if the nacelles were fleshed out a bit more... I have no issues w/ putting 2 dumb iron bombs on the underwing 'hardpoints' rather than droppable cargo. The thing with that one you need to be careful about is there's a lot of leeway for what you could put in an external airdrop cargo mount... case in point... why not an external gunpod... Why not carry another drone or two? (reconnaisance pod fitted w/ an iBall in an aerodynamic enclosure say).

It's the closest thing you can get to a weak 'omni-fighter' to borrow the battletech term. Thinking it over again, I think the problem is there's no indication to the size/weight constraints on the cargo.

Common sense tells me that the drone has a body, most likely constructed of metal plates, which have structure rating. Common sense tells me that structure rating will be less than (rating radar 4)*5=20. If anything, If anything, it would be some nuance of the rules that would put a bear trap in their path.

Longbow, I'm talking about buildings w/ signal blocking paint and faradays cages. And people claiing they're rigging while safe in a bulldog miles away from the actual run.

ECCM does not help against path loss from shielding. I'm not talking about looking inside the drone... (metal plates in case you didn't know block most radio signals). MM-wave radar allows you to 'see' the drone in nice surface detail. Cyberware scanners which can look inside things have very limited ranges in comparison.



As far as what the drone is made of... I have no idea... it may be metal... it may be made out of kevlar/ceramic plates for lightweight armor... who knows. The game never says and I make no claims. I was never talking about looking INSIDE the drone... only looking for obvious SHAPE distortions of the drone. The drone itself *HAS NO INTERNAL STORAGE*, where is the rigger cocoon going? obviously somewhere on the exterior of the drone since you've made no modification to create interior storage in addition. Why can't someone w/ a MM wave radar or a camera image the drone and red flag it when the tacnet fails to identify it.

This is why I call BS on your munchkinism example.

This is one of those cases where it's tempting to resort to common sense instead of blind adherence to some reading of the rules.

Personally, I'd say that if a vehicle has free mod slots, then there's free space in the vehicle; you could put a passenger spot in that mod slot.

Some critical thinking would be required of course, but large drones would usually be, well, large enough to fit it in; with medium drones it can get trickier.

Ah, sorry. It looked to me like you pulled it out of context when you made the "common sense" comment.
...I JUST now saw that you meant seeing through signal blocking paint. I had drones on the mind at that point.
What's wrong with rigging from miles away? I feel like that's kind of the point. Also, I haven't seen any rules for matrix lag outside of being on the moon.

That sounds like your talking about RL. The structure mechanic is there so we don't have to do that.

If you'll look above, you'll notice that I meant "outside the drone" from the get-go.
I feel like Yerameyahu brought up better reasons why this wouldn't work (the rigger cocoon doesn't seem like it would be rigid, but rather semi-stiff from packing on incredible amounts of insulation. ie, it doesn't reflect attacks, but rather insulates against them), but looking back, I can see I made the mistake of accepting RL reasoning where the rules would suffice.

Now I kind of want to continue this argument, but I see another battle dawning on the horizon. Thus it is my duty to attend.

Hence my advice to the OP - the rules indeed say squat about how a sprite can interact with the drone. By RAW the sprite just has two very limited options: telling the pilot "hey, please fly over there" which is then performed autonomously by the pilot, or using his Command CF to default on the skills for ground- and watercraft.
(Same applies to agents as well)


That's another problem of "my" sprite solution - but at least a sprite can do something with his autosofts

You mean like the Arachnae?





-k

Kind of the exception that proves the rule, innit?

Ascalaphus, I agree that it depends on the GM and player being reasonable, but I just disagree with the assumption that mod slots = free space.

*shrug* Mod slots don't exactly equate to free space, but mod slots, description, size category and picture can give you a reasonable ground to argue for or against making passenger space in a drone.

And given that we lack rules for creating drones from scratch, it's a somewhat-balanced workaround to make things not already provided.

Its going the same place an LMG,(weapon mount, internal, fixed) 250 rounds of ammo, plus another 500 rounds in two additional belts(last two slots being Ammunition Bins).

Or we could put four Ejection seats on it.

Or the satellite dish.

Or even a Workshop. Or four workshops. Or four -facility- workshops.



Rigger cocoons aren't the only bulky system that can cause your drone to become a bag of holding. Kneejerking rules reflexes and quoting the RAW about passengers totally doesn't make sense in some cases. But if you're going to enforce it in some cases, you should do it in all cases, otherwise its a double standard.

Or the Hachiman?

I suddenly want to be a rigger. Our entire party would be jockeying for position to wash my feet.

Udoshi, those are great reasons *not* to allow it. I wouldn't allow the ejection seats either, or the workshop, etc., because that's equally stupid. That's the whole point. A little ammo storage is hardly room for a person+seat. There's no question of *not* enforcing common sense all the time.

I strongly disagree... look at the mod I suggested... storage compartment.... It gives a good example of how much mod space you need to create a space when none exists. For a shadowrunner w/ 4 body, armor & equipment... space to move around... you're looking at 2 maybe for a dwarf... more likely 3 space mod, just to create an interior compartment.

1 mod slot for an ejection seat doesn't necessarily include the seat. Adding ejection to the passenger seat of your corvette isn't that bad... the seat and passenger compartment are already there.

Another laughable comment... we're talking about a *4 body* vehicle... please the only non-drone vehicle I can think of with a score that low is the Dodge Scoot... When I think of a steel lynx, I think of an armored 4 wheeler w/ a gun mount where the passenger seat would be (something I could toss in the back of a pickup truck). Not something the size of a small car (which would have a body score of 8-10). Even the basic motorcycles all start w/ body scores of at least 6.


Nowhere in the rigger cocoon does it say it includes a seat or passenger compartment. It only says it armors such a space for the rigger.


Same goes for a weapon mount. a LMG is a LOT smaller than a person. Even w/ a can of a few hundred rounds of ammo it's nowhere near the size of a person. Then a basic weapon mount is *EXTERNAL* and obvious ... by the time you make it internal fixed forward... it's already taken up 3 mod space. (1 mount, +2 internal visibility). A full 3x more than a 1 slot 'rigger cocoon' modification which people are claiming is internal and non-obvious.

Then they put it on a *FLYING* drone... what's the drones lift capacity?! You're going to stuff an orc w/ equipment in it which probably ways close to as much as the drones empty weight alone...

This is what I mean by a lack of common sense... and why I call it just powergaming munchkin rules lawyering w/ no common sense. Modding something where the basics are already there the mod costs make perfect sense... modding something where no chair or space is even present is quite another.

Not to quibble, but the rigger cocoon does mention a seat. That's why I think it *doesn't* fit.

What you really should be asking is "Bridgekeeper: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen falcon?" Because you can do all that on a small drone. Much less a Large.

And guess what. The entertainment systems falcon - or similiarly sized drones - are small.

This is the classic, "The rules don't say I can not do it, so it must be ok." approach, which leads to a large rule set.

All this from an offhand remark about ferrying the team around in a Dalmatian.

Anyway, I guess they wouldn't have bothered to classify drones and vehicles separately if all it took to turn a vehicle into a drone was the manual steering removal mod, the rigger cocoon, and rigger adaptation. This might also explain the price differences (AFB, so don't rail on me too much if there are none).

Nothing prevents fading being healed by magic (or other means). I'm still on the fence about how I feel about this, but honestly it doesn't come up enough to be a problem in my games.

Other thoughts: There is a pretty good technokmancer equivalent of the control rig, it's available as a submersion echo.