+2 DV, -2 AP is not the "same" as +4 AP. +4 AP is roughly the same as -1.3 DV, so +1 DV -1 AP is "the same."

This was errata'd hard. Ex-Ex is only +1DV, -1AP now. ('Ex' is +1DV).
Otherwise there's almost no reason ever to take APDS over Ex-Ex.

Similarly everything w/ a flechette (f) damage code has a +5AP on it (not the +2 seen in the charts).

Well, here's some reading:

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/...ifle-magazines/

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/...n-marksmanship/

Both discuss how the Taliban fighters can't hit jack, and about the randomness of the ammo (Some of which is 40 years old!) that they're using.

Sorry I can't produce *actual* bullets for you to try out.

Bullets use a gilding metal (normally a copper alloy, though not necessarily) to jacket them. The alloy has a few purposes. It's ductile enough to fit into the rifling without excessive barrel wear (steel jackets on bullets WILL wear out barrels quickly). Not to leave a layer of itself behind in the barrel which will need cleaned later (fouling - pure lead bullets tend to do this). Also it's rigid enough to keep the bullets shape and balance when fired (high G forces will make soft lead change it's shape).


Wakshaani:

That's a function of two things, one crap ammo. (distorted bullets, inconsistent bullet and powder weights, corrosive primers/propellants..).

The other is that the standard AK is not well maintained and not designed for precision. A gun which can fire with mud and sand all over it's innards is a gun designed with very loose tolerances. Firing corrosive ammo or steel ammo like above also compounds this with a lot of barrel wear... if the barrels shot out... don't expect a lot of precision as the quality of the rifling goes.

*Pouts* I want bullets. Good reads, thank you.

I had been wondering how they went from mountain marksmen with SMLEs to "Can't hit the broadside of a mountain" with an AK.

It's not like the game doesn't already have such mutually exclusive weapons systems already. I'm referring to the supercavitating torpedo that is priced based on the rating of it's homing electronics. Nevermind the fact that as far as I know, these torpedoes are always dumb-fired because their own operation pretty much makes any kind of guidance and sensors worthless. They are high-speed direct fire weapons.

The German Barracuda, which is still under development, will be a supercavitating guided torpedo. German-language source: Here!

I'd stat "crappy" ammo differently: just like regular ammo, but if you glitch it jams your gun.

If you really want "highly detailed" ammo types, play GURPS .

Highly detailed ammo, if your damage varies between 4 and 10. Ranging from not even a pistol to a freaking cannon.
Really?

I still think there is some merit to the idea of "old" ammo. I think +4AP that has been posted is too much, for half price, it's still not worth it. However, just a +2 AP at significantly reduced cost might lead a poor runner or merc to stockpile the stuff.

A +4 AP ammo should rather be almost free.

I do believe, though, that the benefits of playing with greater variations of DV and AP haven't been used well enough - even within this limited system.

There could at least be:

-1DV/-4AP ammo, sort of like cheap APDS, that you could afford to spray more.

+2/+6 ammo might also be worthwhile on the long run - with +6, you're pushing towards very large pools, and buying hits, in which case that ammo wins.

5 is not half of 20

I've played with it a bit at +2 AV, but then it gets far too tempting to grab. Your mileage may vary, of course, and I'd happy to hear feedback from either a +2 or +4 version seeing wider use.

The point is every type of ammunition with strange modification is increasing the strain on the immersion.
I mean every SWAT sharp shooter in Shadowrun would use gel rounds.
(Why: Because they do more damage and the stun monitor is much easier to fill than physical.)

(This is something funny about most RPG if you try to play a moral dilemma but the rules just push you otherwise.)
(I am not talking about some strange rule lawyering but about the real fundation every player plays by)

Erm, Not to quibble, but gel rounds to a lot less damage than a regular round.
-1 DV, +2 AP. That'd turn a ranger arms SM-4 down to 7 DV, -1 AP.

Granted, that's still a good way to knock down someone's stun track, but why not use flechette for that?

Better PR for using "Low Lethality Rounds"?

That'd be called Stick-n-Shock.

With the added advantage of watching the target do the "Kickin' Chicken"!

Hmmm.... it seems the problem lies in the fact that there is no "situationally useful", because most of what you do always ends up strictly BETTER or WORSE.

IRL where there are far more attributes to factor in - recoil, aerodynamics, penetration, range, etc. there is undoubtedly a greater diversity. In the game, it would be nice if at least we got to a point where a choice makes sense. Only in WAR is there any ammo that gives a larger "recoil" mod.

For instance: Generally against soft targets a +DV is always desirable, because the AP hardly matters - stun track is usually shorter, anyway. So basically even with +1/-1 Ex-Ex is the best ammo against soft targets (for cost reasons). (+1.333 DV effective, exactly the same as APDS in most situations). Flechette comes second, with +0.333 DV, with the advantage that you probably will fill the stun track more reliably. (Theoretically a hit too many on the attack roll with XX could mean your guy is still standing because now both his stun and physical track are missine one box to knock him out.) Since Gel was errataed, apparently, it doesn't compete anymore, it clearly used to be the best ammo. Although I can't find the -1DV that was mentioned, earlier, it seems to be just +2 AP (S).

It's against hardened armour (ITNW) and vehicles when you need -AP, because only that enables you to actually hurt the buggers. So... APDS is still king, here. I repeat my desire for a cheaper AP round, like for instance the 4.7 or 5.7 rounds from HK / FN respectively. A -1/-3 or even a simple -2 AP would be nice at lower cost, so you could more easily afford to go Full-auto wide burst on spirits. As it is, at some point assault rifles just bite on granite against spirits. An F5 is touchy, an F6 very hard, and an F7 basically invulnerable. Then again, a -2AP round is numerically identical to Ex-Ex against spirits for actually hurting it, and then slightly inferior when applying damage. And a -1/-3 round is again the same, but even worse when applying damage.

But look at the cost:

APDS is actually fairly cheap, it's just that stupid 16F that makes it expensive.
Ex-Ex and Flechette are actually fairly expensive, but Flechettes can be bought at every street corner.
Ex ammo is actually the most cost-effective ammo, because it's almost as good as Ex-Ex against everything but spirits.

Enter Arsenal:
Frangible are TOTALLY useless.
Hollow-Point are numerically identical to Flechette, but cheaper and target B armour. Hmmm.
Shock-Lock are identical to Ex.

So, really, diversion seems pretty impossible with the system. No matter what you do, you arrive at the same numbers as long as damage and penetration are basically the same thing. There are some mild situational differences, but basically it boils down to:

Use Ex all the time from a small auto-gun, because they are cheap. (And you should have a spirit with Guard up at all times, anyway.) Ex-Ex from all single-shot weapons, because you can afford it. And big auto-weapons best use standard, unless you are up against spirits.

And that's basically it, there is no more diversion. The only thing I would consider using in addition is a cheap AP round

+0/-2, 50nY, 12R or so.

Or the aforementioned crap ammo for 5-10nY from a vehicle mounted spray and pray gun.

Ah right, this was changed I guess. The old basic book says +2DV/+2AP. Thats what I was looking at.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

Thats what me go thinking about just using the house rule, that physical damage does inflict half of his amount as stun damage.
For example: You get shot at for 7P. You roll your body of 3 and you armor of 6 and reduce it to 4P. This means you take 4P and 2S.

Combat would end up so deadly that the party would avoid it at all costs.

It is already deadly enough that I tend to avoid it unless absolutely necessary. That would put the nail in the coffin, so to speak.

Well yeah. It is already fairly deadly. Doesn't stop a lot of people though.

Don't I know it...

See, I like playing the game where combat happens on a frequent basis--because I enjoy a good firefight--but I don't try to get into combat, nor do I play combat monsters (combat capable, usually).

I play combat smart. I use cover, I dodge, I conserve ammo. And most importantly: the cocky, regenerating vampire melee adept goes in first (I'd rather have a shotgun to his chest than to mine*).

*This actually happened. I was taking cover behind a bar and the vampire ran strait up to a guy and got blasted in the chest (pretty much downing him for the fight) without doing anything effective. I only got 1 kill that fight, compared to the sam's 4, but I didn't take a single box of physical.

Seems like you and I have similar play styles for combat... Having had it drilled into me in the Corps, it is really second nature for me in the game.

I played a Jaguar shapeshifter Adept that did exactly that. Being downed twice by some combat drones armed with LMG, but every time the regeneration saved me (except once when an enemy runner shot me with a shotgun and I got a critical glitch on the BOD to resist the damage.

And that is why I use cover.

You can't use cover when your whole mode of attack is running against someone and jump with fangs and claws aiming to their skull .
I do use cover when I can't reach the target in single sprint, it just happens this particular runner had delayed its action to shoot the jaguar as soon as it leaves cover...

And that is why I use guns. Or spells, but mostly guns.

Indeed... Melee is only used as a last resort.

Unarmed attacks are the most discrete and reliable way of carrying around damage available in shadowrun. Muscle augmentation and bone density augmentation never show up on cyber scanners, and are hard to spot astrally. Tack on some martial arts, and you can easily get 8-9P base DV. I won't even go on about adept powers...

Agreed, it is just far more inferior to a Firearm in most cases.

The only problem is the time it takes for you to be from ranged to melee.
Being a jaguar shapeshifter that means the difference is negiligible most of the time. My only problem is that I rely mostly on Dodge with combat sense than armor.

As a Shapeshifter, you are indeed fast, so closing distances should require negligible time. Nothing wrong with relying upon Dodge/Combat Sense, as I am sure it is rather difficult to obtain decent levels of Armor in your Cat Form. Regeneration does not hurt, either.

Which is why I rely on firearms for general situations and use unarmed for more discrete *close quarters* situations.

The only way to fly.
If you are caught in a melee situation and you cannot melee, well, it will generally be a short fight.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Depends on how you interpretate the rules...
(Since you would have gymnastic or dodge anyway)

If you have a GM who likes realism you should not try to use a gun in a knife fight.


Untill you run into a ward....miau no kitty door there.

The melee dodging being far too easy is one point - abundantly discussed. But it's also pretty easy to do the SR equivalent of a five-foot-step and then blast from point-blank. Unless you can bind people in melee, you better kill or maim them on your first attack.

Of course, getting people to full-dodge is already half the victory - because you've hurt them, and still taken away their action. You just need to hit hard enough to reliably make them do that. The cost of getting there... I'm not so sure it's worthwhile in melee.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm
It all depends on. I see no reason not to allow a parade against a range attack in melee. You will not try to dodge to bullet you will try to hit the weapon before it is pointed at you...

If you are involved in a Melee and you cannot melee, then all you can do is run. This usually ends poorly for the guy trying to run.

As for the Gun and Knife fight scenario you presented above. If they are seperated, and the gun is readied, then it is a gun fight and not a knife fight. If they are enclosed together, then it is a Knife fight, and not a gun fight. Circumstance matters here.

Yeah, thats what I said. If you are in a knife fight, you should not try to draw a gun...

Of course, if you cannot fight, why are you in that knife fight? Why are you not trying to run away?
The point would be to extend, so as to get out of that knife fight, so you can draw your gun, so it becomes a gun fight. *shrug* heh...

Trying to remember my Sun Tzu about this very thing... Damn losing that book and my piss poor memory.

Something along the lines of: "The warrior cannot make himself invulnerable and cannot make his opponent vulnerable" or some such.