Yup, Aerospider. I'm sorry for confusing anyone. I was specifically discussing that quote, because commlink+trodes for AR will always be via simsense. No simsense, no AR via trodes. And to belabor the point, all simsense requires a (cheap, ubiquitous) sim module.

WTF? How did you manage to come to that conclusion?!

Hmm. Well I'll admit to only now noticing that using trodes alone does not technically constitute AR, but even so you can use AR without sim sense to which the post seemed at variance.

Trodes require simsense, but glasses and gloves do not. Hell, i don't think trodes are able to do much of anything without a simsense module.

All in all the introduction of the simsense module as a stand alone addon to comlinks, rather then simply making it part of the trode or datajack package, seems to be what is tripping people up.

It kinda doesn't make sense, as people mentioned. Yes, trodes (alone) can be used for DNI controls (Eject Smartgun Clip, or Change Linked Device Mode, etc.), so they're not useless without a sim module. But it's so cheap and so useful to add it, why wouldn't you?

Not sure why, but never considered that aspect of trodes. Maybe too rooted in the induction pads way of thinking about smartguns.

Gives trodes new uses indeed, even tho i am unsure if it is ever spelled out anywhere that they can be used that way...

*shrug* I wouldn't have thought it a 'new' use. Trodes are one of the standard ways to get DNI (p217, the only non-implant one), and the primary use of DNI is mental controls. It was indeed a change from SR3, because there used to be no non-implant DNI (IIRC). See also Unwired p42 ("Nevertheless, the ability to simply think your commands is an incredible ease-of-use factor that makes trodes worth the risk.") and p58 ("If your smartgun is wirelessly linked to your smartgun implant, you can control that via DNI as well."). No clue what a 'smartgun implant' is, but the rest of the paragraph makes it clear they're talking about DNI controls, inc. trodes.

DNI is, of course, also required for simsense and VR, which brings us right back to the trodes. I mean, you could theoretically use a smartgun with contacts (image link) for the targeting only, and use trodes for the control aspect only. It's just more complicated.

heh, old conventions are hard to break. Been following SR since SR2. SR4 keeps throwing me curveballs in that regard

Perhaps not helping that i no longer seem to find the time to really read a rulebook like i used to when SR2 was new to me.

Can't find it anywhere, but I'm pretty sure somewhere it says that AR glasses have laser eye trackers that allows you to control devices by blinking at icons. Presumably this doesn't apply to contacts, but it is as quick as DNI (as in, Change Device Mode becomes a Free instead of Simple action, though in the case of a gun it must be a working smartgun system).

Interestingly the smartgun system description desribes allowing the user mental control of the firearm without requiring DNI.

You're right (and I mentioned the laser tracking earlier). Trodes are not *required* for AR, nor for device controls. It's just what they *can* do (very well and very cheaply).

IIRC, Unwired clarifies that you can't control your smartgun with an output-only device. It was just one of those oversights in the rules. Between the various control options (laser tracking, voice controls, DNI, etc.), there's no reason to ever really worry about it.

Before SR4, Smartgun Systems were implanted, with an Induction Pad in the hand to connect to the Smartgun itself. There were other systems that allowed it (wired Smartgoggles, for instance) but they were not as good as the implanted 'ware.

Of course, I could be misinterpreting what you are saying... Been a long day already, and it is just beginning for me.

Yeah, but this is in SR4. I was just teasing the book for saying the wrong thing, hehe. That paragraph, under the heading of Direct Neural Interface actually begins with:
Aerospider, I'm not really sure that non-DNI 'handsfree' controls are actually as fast as DNI. You're right that the core book doesn't make it clear, of course. However, descriptions of DNI do repeatedly emphasize how fast it is, compared to other methods. Unwired specifically lists things like voice commands and eye-tracking controls under Manual (as opposed to DNI), and specifies that "manual use of a device takes a Simple Action" (p58).

Ah, so though operating a device wirelessly makes a Simple action a Free one, using a device (in this case glasses) to send the wireless command makes it a simple action again. Makes sense.

Personally, I'd make it a GM call. Ejecting a smartgun clip should be Free in nearly all cases, for example. But Unwired does indeed discuss the issues we're looking at.

And you can go back to those good old days by getting a cybersafety. Takes up one capacity in a cyberlimb, but having an unhackable smartgun is (IMO) well worth it.

Also the ability to NOT have your own gun used against you is kinda nice too.

The PAN topology chapter is indeed interesting for this discussion. This because it clearly seperates AR from DNI and Simsense, showing that you can access AR without DNI or Simsense, or use DNI without AR or Simsense. Simsense just brings it all into one neat package when used.

Exactly. Simsense *requires* DNI, and simsense *can* deliver AR.

More like Simsense extends on DNI, in that it goes from something like a muscle you did not know you had to being a full extension of sensory IO.