While thumbing down my SR4A again I came across this implant.
The immediate use is pretty clear - submit tactile informations to the user.

My question is: Does this Implant subsume the functions of AR Gloves? While the Gloves provide the means to manually interact with the AR, the Touchlink doesn't state so.
I'd trend to say this is the cyberware version of AR-Gloves.

Your opinions on that?

That seems to be it's use, yes.

I wouldn't think so. It's like Image Link for touch. The thing is, cyberware is already DNI, so there's no need for 'manual'. And trodes already do it all anyway.

Yes and no. While you can give adequate output your sensoric input is rather limited solely using DNI for it. By mentally touching the button you KNOW that you have touched it but your sensoric system says "nothing touched" - AR-ware like image links, audio links and touch links provide this sensoric input as does a full fledged sim module. And there is nothing better to prove you HAVE pushed the damn button by FEELING it being pushed

I know, this could also be accomplished by simply using a sim module but I'd like to circumvent the use of one just to see if it's possible.

Nah. DNI is full simsense; if anything, it's realer than real. You can literally transmit the emotion of button-touching, along with the tactile sensation of doing it.

I appreciate your sentiment and your attempt, though.

a touchlink could provide additional sensory data in combat that could be useful. like a burning itch everywhere you know a gun is aimed at you, to help you dodge. that would need a good tacsoft network to do any real good though.

It's one of those flavor things that doesn't really go over well with PC's because your scrimping your essence on more useful things.

I think a burning itch, esp. 'everywhere', would be a distinct penalty in combat. :o But yes, Touch Link is certainly an output channel for AR, which is inherently useful. I'm saying it's not a better output channel than simsense, and that it's not an input channel at all.

Since when is DNI full simsense? DNI is just an interface I thought...

As I understand it, it is. A Simsense Module needs a DNI to work. The module is just an interface that allows those sensations.

The touchlink seems to be, as mentioned, image link for the sense of touch, over the whole body. I can see this being useful for using AR and other matrix interfaces without necessarily needing hands (unlike AR gloves, for example), and could be most useful to Naga. Too bad Naga also require Delta ware.

My understanding of this was:

There are three methods to experience AR.

By physical sensorical input (pictures, sounds etc.)
By DNI as mental images IN YOUR HEAD.
By SimSense as a combination of those two, directly bringing the sensorical input IN YOUR HEAD.

Physical input on your side can also be done by peripherals or direct control of the commlink. AR-Gloves come to mind.
SimSense - experienced over a Sim-Module can also used to manipulate the AR (as stated in Unwired p. 58f)
A DNI though is something inbetween. Firstly it's an interface to let you control your PAN with your Thoughts. Yet on p. 58 it's also described as capable of giving feedback by composing mental images. This is distinctively different from the SimSense input you get as it's only mental. Meaning it's not "better than life" but more like "remember this way".

My problem is this: I just want to experience AR. Be able to see it (Cybereyes, check), manipulate it (DNI, check) and Hear it. Maybe feel it. Is DNI capable of accomplishing this without a sim module by these "mental images" or do I need additional peripherals/ware/a sim module for that?

That's because "Better than life" is what you get when you modify sim modules for hot Sim.

No. If you want to "feel" AR, you need either a Sim module, or touchlink/AR gloves. The Sim Module is the most informative way to do that, as AR Gloves only measure what is in the hand, and Touch link only works for touch, not any emotive features that may be present in the programming.

Yeah I know. But that's not the point. Look at the last paragraph. I don't want a Sim module to be standard but I'd like to be able to perceive the AR standards (see, hear) with as less ware/peripherals as possible.

My setup would have been: Image link, Audio link, (Touch link,) implanted Kommlink. Question is if I can subsume all the links into DNI and say that it takes all place in the head without being really simsense.

Yes, if you don't care about the emotional features, that set up works fine. Keep in mind that all cyber ware is DNI, so if you are using ears, eyes, touch link and and implanted commlink, you don't need trodes at all. Even if you aren't using cyber-ears with the Audio link through the commlink, it wouldn't matter at all.

So an implanted commlink alone or an external one with trodes / a datajack would suffice for standard AR like... a video conference?

As long as you have the image link and audio link to see and hear, yeah, it will.

That's the question. p.58 Unwired says that DNI alone can give you feedback but it would be mentally (seeing / hearing the other side in your head) instead of sensoric input. That would suffice for me IF I understand it correctly.

To access the matrix via simsense you need three components: A commlink, a sim module, and some kind of DNI (direct neural interface) to connect the sim module to your brain. The latter can be done via trodes, a datajack, or by implanting the whole module.

A sim module acts as a modem for the brain, so DNI without a sim module in between won't do anything (or at least nothing good). Well, unless you are playing a 3rd Ed Otaku

Don't want to access VR. Only use the day to day AR standards with as less ware/peripherals as possible.
And as mentioned above I understand DNI as capable of translating a video call directly to your head. The difference is, while an audio link would be able to interact with the fine details of hearing, with DNI alone you would hear the other's voice in your head just as it would be a thought. And that's where I'm really digging. Finding out IF I understand this correctly.

Yeah, that seems to be how it works. Honestly, that would seem a little disturbing to me. Like a half formed memory. The audio/visual links still sound like a good idea to me.

The mechanics for full VR and beaming AR overlays straight into your brain are the same:

The easiest way to get your AR fix is through simsense. You need
a direct neural interface—either via installed implanted commlink,
implanted sim module, a datajack, or a trode net—along with a sim
module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the
data.


DNI is only the connection between brain and cyberware. You cannot buy "a DNI", you buy the necessary gear and connect it by implantation, Datajack or Trodes. This connection is the DNI.

The DNI-Paragraph in Unwired p.58 says that DNI is capable of those "basic" translations to make input from devices understandable to you. Yet it doesn't really declare WHAT sort of interaction with the device is covered.
I know WHAT the DNI is. What I'm confused at is the question what DNI is capable of related to a commlink and the interactions with it.

It does, the stuff that is covered by a Change Linked Device Mode Action. This is a simple form of DNI which is essentially limited to doing what the user needs to do with the device in question - toggle Wired Reflexes on/off, get tactile information from a cyberarm (or Touchlink), etc.

But if you want a general-purpose DNI, you need a sim module.

Nope, sorry. This paragraph states otherwise. A DNI is capable of two way communication. The rules just cover those actions relevant for combat. The paragraph is more about the rather "fluffy" applications.
This means a DNI IS capable of giving you (albeit rather imaginary) feedback while SimSense does give you the recorded feedback. Both accomplish the same. While a DNI gives you the response "button pushed" the SimSense would give you the feeling of the pressed button. Both are able to create the image of the pressed button in your brain. The DNI one is imaginary, while the SimSense one is sensoric.

That's at least what the paragraph states.

And yes I find this wildly confusing as it somewhat contradicts the use of a sim module. Yet the module itself is rather archaic in it's purpose. Commlinks and the AR were both invented at the same time with each other in mind. Why a 'link does need another piece of gear to be fully operable for it's intended purpouse is... copious at best.

AR is still simsense (if you want), which means a simple DNI (like trodes) fully handles it. I didn't mean to confuse anyone by saying they're the *same* thing. Simsense is not limited to 'going into VR'. DNI (general purpose, like trodes, as opposed the specific DNI of a cyberlimb) can do *everything*: input, output, mental commands, mental text 'telepathy', simsense input, etc. Anything. For simsense output, you do need the upgraded version of trodes, the simrig.

Which means you CAN use a commlink + trodes for every day AR activities. Yet if you want the full AR feedback instead of the "imaginary" one you would use SimSense, correct?

Eh. I'm pretty sure you *are* using simsense when you get AR from your commlink+trodes in the first place. Simsense is video, audio, whatever. Simsense is your smartgun's aim-dot and your mental video-conference calls. (Warning: not saying all video is simsense. Hehe.) See SR4A p219: And p220:
So, I don't see a difference between tactile and visual AR (also assuming that tactile AR is somehow 'full' when visual is not). It's all equally real and imaginary. (I was kinda kidding about 'realer than real' earlier, because that's technically only BTL/UV).

I honestly don't know why you'd ever use AR Gloves, nor why so many Sample Runners have them.

Nostalgia? Familiarity with older ideas of how this kind of tech would work?

The annoying small size of most touchpads on CommLinks that prevent Dwarves, Orks, and Trolls from using them with their thick fingers?

Makes sense to me. Possibly if the Commlink is one of those ones that is too small to have a manual interface, too.

Right, but I wasn't asking 'gloves over chiclet keyboard'. I was asking 'gloves over trodes'. Or datajack/whatever. Tactile output isn't very useful compared to visual anyway, so you'll definitely need glasses/contacts/imagelink, if not a general DNI anyway… and it says you can use those glasses for controls.

You aren't. The trodes allow you to control the commlink telepathically. You can't use trodes to view a video saved on your commlink - you need an image link in your cybereyes or glasses/contact lenses. Same for the smartgun system - trodes allow you to tell the gun to change mode, but to make use of the crosshairs you need some way to display it in your vision and this function is beyond what DNI is about. You don't even need DNI to use a smartgun system - you just need your smartgun and your image-linked shades to be talking to each other.

Simsense is where the right hardware (a simsense module) puts the image in your vision at the mental level. Your eyes and optic nerve are bypassed in this set-up. Whether using an image link or simsense the effect is essentially the same - you see it. DNI on its own cannot replace either means. Read a description of a cat. Now go and look at a cat. That's the difference.

Maybe. But do you NEED a sim-module for every day AR activities or not? Because the DNI paragraph suggests that you CAN interact with AR without anything else than a commlink and a DNI.

That's wrong, Aerospider. Read the quotes.

I'm assuming you *do* have a sim module, because it'd be stupid not to. They're cheap, and required.

It's not that complicated. DNI (alone) is mental control. DNI+sim module is mental input/output (simrig) of everything a person can possibly experience (except magic). AR can be experienced via everything from a little vid screen to full simsense; once again, neither DNI nor simsense are required for AR. Simsense happens to be the *easiest* way to get AR (visual, aural, tactile, everything), and you'll also have full mental control at the same time, because you already have the required DNI.

Gee. The paragraph at p.58 in Unwired says that DNI is capable of transmitting feedback from devices as sending your mental commands to them. It ALSO says that the feedback from DNI is like mental imagery thus suggesting that DNI alone is capable of producing images, sounds etc. in your mind. Which would mean you could use a commlink and DNI alone to Access a video/audio AR-Overlay. But it's in your head like a thought rather than artifical sensory input like simsense produces.



Question is... is DNI capable of this alone or does the second marked sentence assume you already are using a sim module? If yes... that would again be rather copious. Both the sim module and the DNI are described as being capable of translating neuronal signals into machine code and vice versa.

I myself understand the second marked sentence in a maybe too complicated way. It says that DNI alone is capable of giving understandable feedback. Which would mean DNI and a sim module MAY interoperate but to experience AR you ONLY need one of those two. Which one you take is a matter of taste and the exact bandwith of feedback you want to have. Either pure mentally (DNI) or with all senses (SimSense). In the end both would allow to have a video conference. DNI would be like talking to an imaginary person in your thoughts, seeing his/her face in your mind, hearing his/hear talk in your thoughts. SimSense would be like literary seeing the person in front of you (or in a AR-Window) while literary hearing his/her voice in your ears.
That would contradict the whole reason to use a sim module for everything else than full AR feedback and VR.

Yep, it's a fluff-thing. For example, playing an AR boxing game by pure thought is not going to be very satisfying, but for the player who just wants to get things done DNI is the way to go.

Where exactly did I contradict them?


Oh right. You didn't say or imply that.


Pretty much, but a simrig is something else, for recording the sensory output for playback purposes.

None of the quoted section concerns a sim module. DNI allows interaction between the brain and electronic devices. A sim module can be added to translate the device's communication into sensory 'languages', but it's just dead weight if there's no DNI to allow the communication to begin with.

DNI just means that some chip can talk to the nerves directly in their own language. This then allows a person to control a device without having to move a part of their body or fumble with buttons and such. Simsense build on top of that to create "false" sensory data, either on top of the real thing or fully overriding (allowing a person to live a movie anywhere, any time). The matrix computer systems builds on that again to allow interactivity in a virtual environment (earlier books called it ASIST, but i do not recall it being mentioned in any of the SR4 books).

I swear, they could have written a book the size of SR4A on the various layers of the SR computer systems alone and people would still not get it. Given that i am surprised the internet works at all.

It's not that I don't get what a sim module is good for. Yet, the DNI paragraph looked like I've got something wrong. Maybe the paragraph itself. My bad.

Actually, ASIST is the precurser to Simsense. And it's mentioned in the "History Lesson for the reality Impaired" chapter, Techsplosion, pg. 27, SR4A

Like I said, half formed memories. Just get the audio/visual link accessories, it'll save some headaches, whether you have DNI, or Simsense, or not.

Funny, older editions gave the impression that simsense came first and then the military built on that when setting up Echo Mirage.

And checking the text, it is not so much that ASIST is the precursor but rather that they are the same thing. Kinda like how in the mobile phone world the marketing always talks about 2G, 3G, 4G, while the techs talk about GSM, UMTS, LTE and so on.

Which is exactly what I said: Most devices have a limited DNI functionality (which means they need to have a stripped-down sim module or something similar) which allows the user to use that device via DNI. They do not, however, have the full-blown interface for every kind of data, that needs a dedicated sim module.


No. And even if a sentence in a sourcebook said exactly that, it would simply be an error. DNI is the technology for the physical transmission. If there is nothing to generate the simsense signal sent over that connection, the connection is pointless.

I'd say the writer used to term "using DNI" in the same meaning as I am accessing this forum via Wifi and somebody else via Fiber-to-the-Curb. The Airwaves and fiberglass won't do nothing, but who wants to rattle down the whole OSI stack?

Sounds reasonable.

Aerospider, I think you'll find I very clearly gave the sim module assumption, because we're talking about AR-as-simsense. Here's the exact quote I gave earlier, and you'll see it explicitly mentions the sim module:
As I said: DNI-alone is mental controls (in and out), DNI+sim module is omnisense-input, mental controls out, and simrig (which is a DNI) is omni input/output.

Yerameyahu -

"Eh. I'm pretty sure you *are* using simsense when you get AR from your commlink+trodes in the first place."

To me that says one can use simsense without a sim module, but if you say it doesn't then ok

Oh lovely confusion thy name shalt be SR4A!

You know, some images of CommLinks would be very helpful in a lot of ways. As well as rules for custom cases.

...

You know...