As far as I can tell, only certain Infected are dual natured:

Ghoul
Bandersnatch
Loup-Garou


The rest are not, including:
Banshee
Dzoo-Noo-Qua
Fomoraig
Goblin
Nosferatu
Vampire
Wendigo

Does this seem right to anyone else? It seems like have a magical infection in your blood would make you dual natured. Anyone have any comments on this? Any ideas as to why some are Dual natured and some are not?

Arbitrary. *shrug* It'd be a mistake to justify either way based on logic.

It is arbitrary, but taking a better look, only loup-garou and Ghouls gain the dual natured quality (Sasquaches are already dual natured, and Grendals, harvesters, and Gnawers don't gain it either. Neither are Drop Bears or Chuppacabra.) This is a little lopsided, since ghouls are vastly more common, and Loup-garou are the most common HMHVVII (And also the only ones that *can* jump metavariant- or so the fluff suggests)

Hm... i am not 100% sure about this, but vampires (and other) once HAD astral sight, or not? Were they completely dual natured? I mean back in other editions... i vaguely remember my vampire character being overwhelmed by the astral sight when he first woke up changed.

So yeah, maybe they SHOULD have it.

I can`t speak for older editions, but I do know that in 4th, whenever a character is affected by HMHVV, of all strains, as long as they retain sentience, they have a good chance of gaining one of the awakened qualities (Usually Magician, Adept, or Mys ad, but Spell/Spirit Knack, and astral sight are possible as well), and if they already had the possibility through latent awakening, they automatically awaken.

In previous versions of Shadowrun Vampires were always dual natured... all infected were. Although they were not available as player characters (except for Ghouls in 3rd edition).

Of course, in old versions Vampires had immunity to normal weapons and added their essence to their strength... I just think that all infected should have the Dual Natured quality, but I guess not.

Part of it I think revolved around the fact that being dual-natured really sucks, and it's a strong disadvantage of ghouls and loup-garous which are more curses than benefits. Vampires and what not are supposed to be powerful, so they shouldn't have such a crippling weakness.

Crippling weakness...

Hmm... able to attack spirits with unarmed and bypass their immunity to normal weapons, ability to see astrally... Oh, and Dual Natured Creatures dont receive a penalty for physical tests when viewing the astral.

Dual Natured is awesome. It makes initiation and the Masking metamagic a high priority, but that already would be for someone wanting to conceal their infection.

My group always treated all magically infected as Dual Natured. Going to have to talk it over with them, may want to house rule this, or maybe going to have to change some characters around a bit.

Yes, it sounds great when you only mention some possible benefits, and ignore the well-known drawbacks.

As I remember it (haven't played in a while), the only way to get past a ward without setting it off if you're dual natured is:

• Initiate and get masking.
• Find someone who is authorized to go through the ward and study them for an extended time so you can mimic their signature.
• Mask the authorized user's signature and walk through. The ward makes a test to pierce your masking with a threshhold of your initiate grade?

Is this correct?

Essentially, Yes...

@Apathy
This person is most likely inside the ward...

Not to mention that said spirit is able to beat you up while moving quite fast.

There's also the fact that a projecting magician can Manabolt you into oblivion and you can do precisely sod-all to stop him unless you are also awakened. So there's that.

Uh, I have my books right here, and I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that Vampires (or the other infected except for Ghouls and Loup-Garou) are dual natured. Their abilities and drawbacks in 4e are virtually identical to their abilities and drawbacks in the 1e core, with the only real change at any point being that they lost the +Essence to their Strength they had in previous editions in 4e. They never had Immunity to Normal Weapons, either, except for when they were in Mist Form, like every other critter with Mist Form. Of course, older-editions Regeneration was nutso compared to 4e Regeneration, so that went a longer way in their tanking.

Editions previous to 4e were as nebulous as hell as to what was a "Dual Being" and what wasn't, with nothing in any of the critter entries making it clear what was and what wasn't, except a bit of shadowtalk on a few, like the Hellhound, outright stating that they were. If the assumption was that every paranormal creature was a dual being, it was never stated outright, one of the more annoying omissions of assumption the game has had throughout its history.

So. Either most Critters used to be dual natured then suddenly weren't in 4e, or the ones that aren't in 4e never were. Pick your poison. Vampires aren't and weren't ever dual natured in 4e, as were none of the other Infected that didn't have "Dual Natured" in their Powers section. The idea that they are is a strange permutation of urban legend, one I've slipped into myself at one point in the past, but it's right there in black and white (or color and black in the 4eAE core).

Masking protects you from that. First grade of initiation to get masking is just 8 karma with a group and oath, and 3 karma to join the group. Its not a very big problem unless you cant initiate.

Honestly though... who is going to play a Vampire that isnt an Adept or Magician?

No one is arguing that Vampires are supposed to be Dual Natured in 4th edition, and certainly not saying all Critters should be dual natured.

My question simply was, why are some with Magical infection dual natured, and some are not?

Good point though, they were not dual natured in 3rd edition (just checked the critters book). Question still stands... why?

Uh, page reference? Reading the entry on Masking in SR4A (p. 198), it lets an initiate disguise his/her aura to look like someone else. It doesn't say anything about making a dual-natured being not be dual-natured anymore, or about defending against hostile spells. If you assume that assensing is the only way the enemy has to identify you, then sure, you can blend into a crowd. If it isn't, you're still getting Manabolted to death with damn few options for retaliation.

It comes from the fact that you can use Masking to make yourself appear completely mundane. That would hide the fact that you are Dual Natured.

Yes, I believe I covered that. It hides the fact that you're dual-natured, it doesn't remove the fact that you're dual-natured. If the only way the enemy can track you is astrally, then yes, you can avoid being tracked, or at least make it harder. If anyone on the opposing team has, oh I dunno, a picture of you, on the other hand, you're still hosed. Or, heaven forbid, a ritual link. Then you're comprehensively boned, because they can hit you from the other side of the planet.

Ritual Link always makes me think of the movie Gattaca. Wake up every morning, sand blast your hair and skin, burn what well off, go on about your day.

Ritual link doesn't apply to the argument, because then you're hosed whether you're dual natured or not.

Theoretically, a way to figure out who's masking in a crowd of apparent mundanes, is to go astral and manaball the area. None of the people who actually are mundanes will be touched, but anyone masking is still a valid target, even if the caster didn't know he was there.

A projecting mage cannot target a dual natured creature with a mana based spell if he cant break masking. If he cant see a magically active target, he cant lock on and zap you.

Not to mention the fact that you always see in both astral and physical, and will likely notice him, and you CAN target him with your dual natured foot up his ass.

Masking allows you to appear mundane, among other things, to someone who cannot break it. It does absolutely nothing to 'conceal' your astral form. Masking or not, you still have an astral body, and it is not invisible.

The Concealment power is pretty much the only way to hide that.

Again, cite a page, please. If the mage can see you, and he knows that you're dual-natured, I cannot find anything in RAW preventing him from nuking you. Apathy also makes an excellent point. If he knows Manaball, he can blast an area, and you'll take damage whether you're masked or not. Handy, that.


A) You'll likely notice him if you happen to be looking for him, and B) how do you propose to make a physical attack if he's floating a couple stories up?

Of course it only applies to those that don't break it. That's like saying camo only works against those that can't spot you in the trees. No drek.

Though I think the best use of masking would be to change what type of creature you look like astrally. "I think that's our guy...." "Idiot, we're looking for a ghoul. Not a free spirit. Pull your head out your hoop."

Masking allows you to alter your aura, and aura is the intangible reflection of a living being on the astral plane. A dual natured being is actively present in the astral plane as an astral form, not just an aura, and masking does nothing to hide an astral form, even saying it could alter you to look like another astral form is taking a liberal interpretation of the rules. I personally make a home brew metamagic that allows naturally dual natured beings to suppress their astral form.

Astral Suppression
Prerequisites: Dual-Natured
Just as many magicians learn to send their consciousness to the astral plane and leave their bodies behind, some dual-natured beings have learned to hide their astral forms within themselves and act temporarily as physical beings. As a complex action, a dual-natured being with this metamagic can suppress their astral form, losing the dual-natured quality and acting as a purely physical being. While suppressing their astral forms, the initiate has no astral form, is unaffected by astral spells, and can freely pass through wards just as a normal physical being could do. Supressing one's astral form requires concentration, applying a -2 penalty to all action performed while doing so. The initiate may suppress their astral form for a number of hours a day equal to their initiate grade, once the duration runs out they immediately become a dual natured being again, and cannot use this ability until they have rested for at least 8 hours. This power in no way affects the aura of the initiate suppressing their astral form, such is a purview of the masking metamagic.


Improved Astral Suppression
Prerequisites: Dual-Natured, Astral Supression
With this power the initiate can quickly suppress their astral form, and no longer needs to spend as much effort maintaining the ability. The initiate no longer suffers the -2 penalty to actions while suppressing their astral form, and may supress their astral form as a free action by succeeding a threshold three Willpower+Charisma test.

Interesting...

Ahh! I hadn't picked up on the distinction between auras and astral forms. Thank you.

That is an interesting thought. I will admit that I always assumed that for a dual-natured creature that their aura and their astral form being one in the same, in their appearance at least, as they are so closely tied together. Hmmmm

A vampire with masking makes himself look mundane. Now he cannot be the direct target of any mana based spells.A manaball is not like a fireball. Any mana based spell is not an explosion of magic that starts at one point and affects everyone in the area of affect. Mana based spells require line of sight. If you dont have line of sight on his Aura as being awakened and a valid target, then you cannot target him with a mana based area spell.

A fireball you can drop around a corner and everyone is hit in the AOE, even if you cant see them. If a mage is not using astral perception, and someone is wearing a chameleon suit, he cannot see them, therefore cannot target them with a stunball. Everyone around him would drop, but the invisible character would not. Same principle for concealing the astrally active part of your form, making yourself look mundane. If all they see is a mundane character, they cannot target them while astrally projecting.

Thats my take on it anyway. Either way, dual-natured is more benefit than detriment IMO, even if mages can target you.

Sure a mage could be hovering in the air, but in a bar, with a decent agility, you can reach any part of the bar with a jump. You see him, you roll better on your initiative, you go claw his spellcasting face off. Sure he can run away super fast, but if he hangs around to spend an action dropping a manabomb, he better not miss.

That suppose you can find a group willing to take you onboard despite being a vampire - which would strongly point at a vampire club or the like. Which means usually underground groups with their own agenda - which is not guaranteed to be something you (or the other PCs) would agree with.

Even if there's a wide variation in shadowrun's vampires tempr, it seems there's more than a fair share of bastards in the lot. Nosferatus are even worse in that regard, being the newb into a magical group of the buggers is likely to require a lot of lube.

A dual-natured critter may use Masking to appear mundane and if the observer does not beat its masking, he won't be able to target it through the Astral Plane.

A shapeshifter for instance may use masking to look like a dual-natured human or to look like a mundane critter of the same species.

Even Indirect AoE spells require LOS to the center of the effect, though not LoS to each target (Manaball, in contrast, does).

This is false. They were never dual natured. They only had immunity to normal weapons in mist form. If you killed a vampire with a normal weapon then you had to roll a d6 to see if you killed it. A vampire would add their essence to their strength. Nosferatu were even more deadly since all of them are hermetic mages, and can add up to double their essence to their stats.

Only ghouls have always been dual natured.

Took me so long to comment because I wanted to check my books for certain.

I can't find anywhere that says masking is what you use, I have seen older editions say to use dispelling to attune yourself to the ward.

It's not masking in this case. It's flexible signature.

Actually, it is Masking...

Could you quote me the rules for this? I know you could mask through wards in 3rd edition, but don't see the rule for it in 4th.

That would actually make a lot of sense. Making your signature match the creator's signature.



LOL, Eimi beat you to it 7 days ago

Sure, here you go...



As for the foloowing comment:



Flexible Signature DOES NOT allow synchronization through a ward. See highlighted rules above.

You may use masking to pretend your aura is of another kind of creature, to pretend your magic is higher or lower or look mundane.
Flexible Signature allows you to copy someone else's aura, I think that would be the way to bypass a ward, doesn't it?

Flexible Signature does not allow bypassing a Ward, That is Masking, See Above quote, or refer to Street Magic, page 124....

Nope, Flexible signature allows you to copy someones Signature, not his aura. Auras are the reflections of beings and objects on the atral plane. Signatures are the "finger prints" you leave when you use magical skills and powers.

Yeah, I dont think the argument is that Flexible Signature allows for masking through wards, its just that it makes sense that it would be used for that.

If your signature matches that of the mage who made the ward, seems like the ward would want to let you through.

Flexible Signature changes your signature, not your aura. It might let you cast a spell through the ward, but it would not let you walk through the ward.

Cannot be said enough... ^^^

It all depends on whether the ward checks the Aura (similar to a visual inspection) or the Signature (similar to matching finger prints). The problem with the signature checking is that walking/astrally moving through a barrier is not the use of a magic ability. So you would not leave a signature for the barrier to check.

I guess convincing a barrier that you are not magically active would be easier than convincing it you are the one who made it...

Page reference, please. The entry on Masking (SR4A, page 198) says, in part:

There is no mention anywhere of being able to hide the fact that you're dual-natured. You can change what your astral form looks like, but you cannot change the fact that you have an astral form. Ergo, no matter what the vampire makes himself look like, he is still vulnerable to mana spells cast from astral space.

That's what I get for saying stuff witout cheking before...

The thing is masking does not change your dual natured or astral status. Observers simply do not perceive your status. It's just like running into a wall in the dark or while you are invisible, it will hurt the same.

Mundane targets cannot be targeted with manabased spells from an astrally projecting magician.