You always need moar dakka! 'Nuff Dakka is hitting every point in space with every other point in space at every point in time. Until you can do that, you always need moar dakka!

And, after *YOU* have that much Dakka, the next person down the line needs more.

SR3, jumping off a tall tower, throwing a grenade and timing it just right so the explosion creates a large burst of water that cushions the fall. Character retired, NPCed, and woke up (Thank you Platinum Docwagon) in a hospital with cards and flowers from the most well known runners in the area. But in my years of SR the only time I needed/wanted that many dice. Sometimes you love exploding dice TN and sometimes you don't. That time I didn't.

I See the problem now... You are trying to invade my Black Trenchcoat with your Pink Mohawk... Shame on you...

Well I like to think it was a Mirror Shades game. An attempt at Black Trenchcoat but sometimes a Pink Mohawk is the only way you are walking/limping/crawling away from the situation.

Point Taken...

You want 20+ dice anytime you're facing anything with 20+ dice.

I've never gone that far, but I've personally seen over 30 dice thrown for single tests, usually when facing something really huge. If you're fighting a Force 10 spirit without magic, you pretty much need 30 dice in order to reliably kill it.

Also, you have a higher chance of a critical success. 4 hits over the threshold means you kill a dragon with *style*.

Try getting a job then. Either goes really good or really bad.
Bad:
Johnson: "Sorry, you are too well know. I can't use you for this stealth mission. Know of anyone else who can do it?"

Good:
Target: "WHO'S COMING TO GET US?! FRAG THAT....!" -takes a .45 aspirin-
Johnson: "Uh.... I guess.... That counts..... Usual numbered account?"

Well, Availability Tests come to mind, especially if your GM requires a degrading dice pool.



-k

Considering the topic, that would then turn us to "Gun as a Skill" ala munckinism

"What's your Negotiation skill at?" "Ares Predator IV."

Nope. The reflex recorder won't help if you already have improved ability: 3, since the augmented skill cap is 10.

The diagnostics power of a sprite doesn't actually give bonus dice for shooting. It gives a bonus to use the device it is analyzing, and it is being used on the smartlink. So you get a bonus to your test to use your smartlink. Of course, using a smartlink doesn't involve a test, so no discernable effect.

Analyze device works, although that's really using the spell outside of its intended scope. But that's one of the benefits of threads like this - to show cheesy areas that need to be house ruled. Note that while the enhance aim spell doesn't directly give you any dice, it can negate range category penalties without the character needing to take aim. This means that you can use take aim to get bonuses, instead.

Possession spirits don't really work - the Agility is already at the augmented maximum, and the skill is the spirit's own - as compared to 10 + specialization for the character presented, and a spirit wouldn't be able to use things like the smartlink or tacnet. Theoretically, you could get a higher dice pool, but only because spirit Force (and therefore skill) is not capped - although in my opinion, both should be. Item attunement is similar. Theoretically, there is no limit to initiate grade, so a zillionth level initiate would have half a zillion bonus dice. In practice, you would have to be a 12th grade initiate to have +6 dice, and merely break even with the 6 dice you would lose from not being able to use the smartlink or tacnet.

You're thinking too small. Never negotiate with less than a Ruger Super Warhawk.

This is a popular option at my table.

I have. My group tried taking on a group of gangers and the plan went tits up, one guy got blown away pretty quickly by SMG fire, the others managed to avoid the worst of the attacks. I, however, ended upon the receiving end of 2 wide bursts, 2 narrow bursts, and a couple hits off an ares pred. That was the stuff I hadn't managed to dodge/had the attacker glitch.

I had 6 edge (1-2 of it used already) and a ballistic soak pool of 16. I needed every last one of those dice. We managed to escape with one KIA, 1 with pretty bad physical wounds, one with a good chunk of stun, and then me with 1 stun damage.

Ruger is for the pro-negotiator. Pred IV is for the back-up face. Ingram Smartgun X is the negotation tool for the common man.

SO, you only sufferred 1 Stun... In the end, You really did not NEED greater than 16 Dice after all. 16 Dice was obviously enough.

Sometimes you want to just dominate with style, though.

One of the more memorable moments was my character back in 3rd Ed getting just hosed down with automatic weapons fire by a gang. He had enough armor to just stand there and soak it. (and it wasn't obvious armor, either).

After they finished emptying their clips, he just quirked an eyebrow and said, "Run."

After that soak (and a 20+ die Intimidate test), the gang scattered.



-k

I'm pretty sure(correct me if I'm wrong), he had 16 dice AND the Edge in there for exploding dice, which might count as extra dice.

So adding up extra exploded Edge dice would have taken that above 20.

Might I also give an example of someone simply trying to make a completely blind long range shot. What's the penalty on that? -14? If I HAD to do that i'd certainly want more than 20 dice.

Sure, it doesn't come up often. And hell, I can't think of any of my own characters that actually have a die pool AT 20 let alone above it(I think my one sammie, for his martial arts, rolls 9 Agl+7(Unarmed+Specialty), plus 1 Reflex Recorder and sometimes +1 Kick Attack if he takes it on his own for a total of 18 dice max, and that's his main and highest skil.

All it is is sometimes, we get ideas to do something silly. (And I'm Pink Mohawk through and through, so I support this. Well, with a side of 'Mirror Shades.' I'm not very Black Trenchcoat, nor have I ever been.) So we just play with numbers to see 'hey, what kinda funny thing that I'll probably never ever play can I make today?'

He spent edge. Which I would neither count as "more than 20 dice" nor would I count it as "16 was enough."

And still, his 16 Dice (with Edge) were enough... Which is my point. The Need for 20+ Dice is non-existant (because you would STILL have Edge there as well).

No worries, though...

He rolled 20 dice, and that was enough. That's a bit like saying: "You don't need a skill over 1, since you can get your dice pool big enough without it." It might not be necessary, but it sure helps.

Besides which, once you start encountering high-powered opposition, you start needing those dice. A mundane street sam with a pistol has no chance of hurting a high-force spirit unless he's got a huge dice pool.

It's hard to judge how "necessary" Edge is, because it isn't simply four or so extra dice. It either turns your whole dice pool into exploding dice, or lets you re-roll any dice that didn't get a success. The latter, I have found, can significantly increase your level of successes.

Shadowrun can be a very lethal game. Note that the example of Edge putting a dice pool over 20 didn't involve high-Force spirits or a great dragon, but gangers.

Gangers can, and will, kill you. Happened to a player in one of our games once. Decided to take his bike through the Barrens. Two low-level grunt mook gangers (with no cyber) tried to stop him. And succeeded. One shotgun blast at near point blank.

The PC survived the encounter, but it nearly killed him outright (and we hadn't even gotten to meet Mr. J yet).

At 16 dice, Edge should be used for rerolls unless the char in question has Edge 8:

"Average Add Edge dice": Edge + 1/6 Edge from Rerolls + 1/6 DP from Rerolls = 7/6 Edge + 1/6 DP
"Average Edge Reroll dice": 2/3 DP

Reroll is better as long as 7/6 Edge < 1/2 DP. It is also better because you can wait and see how many hits you get without Edge.

One of my face has negociated with a grenade:

*Pulls the pin, put the grenade on the table*
"Ok, mister, we've figured you out, and there's something not quite right with all that deal."
"If you've figured me out then you know this isn't much of a threat to me."
(Ok so you TRULY are a Vampire)
"You're right. That's why it's not a regular grenade. It's made of 100% natural components. Probably found in the nearby forests..."
"If it explodes so close to you, you're dead too."
"We're professionals. I've done my research on you, you've done the same on me. I know you're the Vampire, but you know I'm the one who's already dead."

A grenade, some bluff (it was just a regular frag grenade) and a whole lot of composure.

"because he's holding a thermal detonator!"

I left out the reflex recorder for simplicity. It's a skill boost rather than a dice pool boost, same as the adepts improved ability. Thus, I just bought 3 points of that.

You can get one more point of agility if you make the character a pixie instead of an elf

Yeah.... But.... It would be a pixie.... So now we either have a very small rifle, an odd smartlink set up, or a pixie wrapped around the grip attempting to grab the trigger and perform a move that looks highly suggestive.

If you're going to do a pixie, you drop the sharpshooter bit and pick up Intoxicate (and it's related spell, Fireball).

Or, y'know, Gunnery.

<ducks and runs>





-k

just remember NOT to be Navi.

You don't have to tell me.

Hey! Listen!

Where's my hilariously oversized fly swatter?

Adept = 5BP
Surge II = 10BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of limit)
Exceptional Attribute = 20 BP
Aptitude 10 BP

You are now spending 45 BP on positive qualities. Like I said, exceeds raw.

Adept = 5BP
Surge III = 15BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of SuRGE)
Exceptional Attribute = 10 BP (overage from SuRGE)

Aptitude picked up after chargen with GM permission leaves this with 5 BP to spare. Granted, the entire build doesn't fit from Chargen, but can be earned later. It's also harder to justify Exceptional Attribute or Metagenetic Improvement, esp. at that cost, after chargen.

Now add a spotter. Give me a maxxed sensor test pool for Information-guided indirect fire.

You can't get Exceptional Attribute as a SuRGE quality.

You don''t need to though...

Surge II with Metagenic Improvement - Agility (10 BP, The Improvement is Free for BP Purposes)
Adept (5)
Exceptional Attribute (20)

Done, and all for 35 BP of Positive Qualities...

Yes, i know that.
Has nothink to do with the point of my post

So, what is your point?

This should be pretty clear man

And yet, the original post that included the descriptions of the Qualities did not claim to do so...
Though it did get a bit muddied there for a bit...
No Worries...

My mistake. Still, possible to get everything minus Aptitude, and Aptitude is more easy to justify as a post-chargen quality.