Are characters with Astral Hazing supposed to be the optimal Space-Mages? At least that's what the book says:
I really wished the authors would pay more attention to what they write.

you are aware, that BGC and Shallow are additive or the higher counts?

Heh. Even if it worked, it'd merely be an error, not a real aspect of the setting/game.

Huh? Astral Shallows have nothing to do with Background Count. They are merely places where you can look into one plane form the other.
If you meant Mana Ebbs and Voids instead, those do not add up either. Man Voids are from -12 to -7 BGC and Ebbs from -6 to -1. You are always either in one or in the other. Moreover the rules state that regardless of the ambient mana conditions the character makes his surroundings a +/- 4 Mana Ebb/Domain. We do not know which it is but it does not make a difference, except for Astral Perception.

I sure hope so.

The Astral Hazing quality does specify it produces an aspected domain, so that's a +4 background count.

I'm coming round to the idea. It makes for an interesting angle for such people to be of great utility to the megacorps in space. Kidnapping a reluctant hazer and delivering him to a corp so they can stick him in an orbital lab for the next research cycle or two could be a perfectly good run to play.

I've always played it that if two BGCs overlapped, the greater of the two prevailed. I can't find the text to support this position, however. And the Astral Hazing text does say "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count" (RC, page 116).

Now, it also says "taints astral space around her." Does outer space have astral space at all? Street Magic (page 119) describes outer space as a mana void, but also shows that mana fields can be formed there by the introduction of life, such as the greenhouse at the station called Eden in the vignette on page 111. So, if enough life forms together can generate a mana field, then it looks as if a character with Astral Hazing should be able to do it also.

Cool.

And it's aspected to 'chaotic detrimental mess for all traditions and users', if there were any justice.

Spirit rather than the letter and all that, sometimes, is the only way to keep things normal and sane.

In a world with dragons as corporate CEOs either interpretation is as (in)sane a the other. the literal one though has more "interesting" consequences. Also how but in the literal way would you play areas lesser BGC than space?

Honestly, I think house ruling it is the best idea, regardless of which way you go. The idea of Astral hazing is that the character generates a mana field themselves, so I think this could offset the lack of mana (ebb, or void). However, as it is aspected, I don't think it would mix well with domains and warps, unless it had a similar aspect. I would say in domains, whichever is higher wins, and Warps always win.

AH addresses that point here. You could go with either the ruling that outer space produces polluted mana or no mana depending on which quotes you want to cherry-pick. Perhaps like most magic, nobody knows for sure - that's why there are so many contradictory theories.

It is worth noting that AH's quotes in that thread are from SR3. AH was involved in the freelancer/developer discussions when I took over writing the chapter on Astral Space in Street Magic. The language and mechanics in SR3 were extremely confusing and unclear, something we sought to address in Street Magic. Page 119 of Street Magic is much more clear that space lacks mana and Street Magic also clearly divided voids from mana warps by putting them on opposite ends of the background count spectrum, unlike SR3.

Well, that is the question: Does Astral Hazing produce "bad" mana, or does it taint an existing manasphere?

I feel like, purely from an engrish language perspective, you need something in order to haze it. ex: Phi Beta Kappa didnt have any new recruits this year, therefore the yearly hazing did not take place.

ok, you, 5 bucks into the bad play of words jar . .

That's actually not a terrible analogy. Not the best, but still not terrible.

If there were no astral plane in space, how can awakened people expose themselves to it and go mad/die from it?

Magic. Also, like a fish out of water.

I suppose it would be the equivalent of exposing your meat body to space. There is absolutely nothing there, so you essentially explosively decompress. Your astral body begins breaking down. I think if it ever came up, I would have it as an essance loss scenario, exposure to the "astral" of space begins taking a part of what makes your spiritual mind and body connected (with a willpower check to avoid an actual negative quality associated with that loss).

So do fish not excrete on dry land because there's no liquid to contaminate?

Ok, enough with the analogies. Astral space does exist in space but there's no mana, the absence of which is what makes it so painful. The wording of the quality is unambiguous - it refers to the ambient mana conditions. Background count is possible in space by virtue of there being astral space, so whether the 'hazer' is on a space walk or surrounded by lots of lovely plants in Eden, the quality does work by RAW. If it doesn't sit comfortably then house-rule it as you see fit, but the text stands for itself.

If that IS the case, and even the fact that it's a possibility, would mean corps would LOVE to test the theory of sending the magically active up in space accompanied by a hazer, who very well might create a haze regardless of baground count, warps, or voids.

Aerospider, focus. "how can awakened people expose themselves to it and go mad/die from it?" … like a fish out of water. These are called jokes. Not *good* jokes, but not things meriting misguided srs responses.

Anyway, most people aren't saying it doesn't work by RAW. They're saying it's stupid and typically short-sighted RAW.

This is my take, too. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that the quality is completely unambiguous, but I agree that this is the best interpretation of the text. Plus, the mechanism seems logical to me. I'm having a bit of a harder time conceptualising how Astral Hazing would work in a Mana Warp.

It was a terrible joke, but my response was no better if you couldn't tell it was similarly tongue in cheek. Perhaps I need to be less stingy with the emoticons...

Ok, so, besides yours there are no posts that say the rule is stupid and only a couple that imply it. Nobody so far has come close to presenting a rationale as to why this thing is actually a problem. So can someone help me see the supposed brokenness before I start thinking up some space-related runs?

Exactly correct. This is the way it was meant to be expressed.



I agree that the wording is unambiguous, though to me it's a very poor idea. It doesn't really make much sense that hazers generate a mana field; it would make much more sense that they attract ambient mana and "flavor" it. But that would require there being ambient mana to begin with, which in my interpretation would mean that a background count higher than 4 or -4 would nullify the hazing effect. In the case of -4 or below, there is not enough ambient mana for the hazer to attract. In the case of +4 or higher, the local conditions drawing and shaping the mana are stronger than the hazer's nature.

But because of the way it's written, that's more of a house ruling.

It's not broken, per se. It's not a *problem*. Space is not really important to Shadowrun (the game).

What *is* silly is a Negative quality enabling something that's not really supposed to be possible in the setting. And I agree with Demonseed Elite about the unconditional 'override' effect of Astral Hazing; that doesn't make sense either. Ergo, bad RAW. Just like the fact that Astral Hazing is the go-to magic *defense* 'positive' quality, and the crazy ideas about geomancing it into a full benefit, etc.

They took the language for the Astral Hazing negative quality exactly (word-for-word) from the astral hazing side effect of cybermancy. Except the latter is tied into balancing the whole process of cybermancy and alone the negative quality doesn't make as much sense with that wording.

Astral Hazing isn't the universal magic defense; spells cast from outside the haze still have full effect, I guess the way that shooting a bullet into water doesn't immediately make it significantly slower just after penetrating the surface.

I don't think that's the case, Rubic. At least, that's not what I've seen many people saying. *shrug*

Ahem, casting into background reduces spells by the backgrounds level.
so even a force 8 spell is at 50% capacity o.O
as for shooting into water: mythbusters confirmed that one, especially high speed bullets simply shatter when hitting water . .

Have you plucked your response from my mind? I wanted to write the exact same thing.

It is a dirty, dirty place . . *snickers* ^^

I've seen many people say many things that didn't hold up to scrutiny to game rules as written, etc. Some of the most egregious powergaming I've been informed of has dealt with purposeful mishandling or misreading of rules, spells, abilities, etc. One example, the Permanency spell in D&D 3.5 lists specific spells that it can make permanent. Most of the abuses of permanency I've heard involve spells NOT on the acceptable list.

The flavor text of Astral Hazing would indicate that it creates a "Toxic" background count, aiding any toxic magicians casting within. The text regarding background count is:

"Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained
spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected.
Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background
count." - SM p. 118, bottom right side

Nowhere in the text does it list affecting instant duration spells cast from OUTSIDE of the background count. Granted, I was not aware of the bullets and water being a myth, but RAW, even if not exactly as intended, would make Astral Hazing less of a BP-granting bonus power. The only remaining breakage I could see is a Toxic magic user taking this to augment their toxic mana.

As I understand it, the problem is that in general, outer space is supposed to be a mana-less/magic-less area, but with this argument, a mage can "create" an area around themselves, that HAS mana, therefore, they can cast spells.

This is true. However, even going by strict RAW, their magic is still reduced by 4, and they take +4 drain to all casting. That can still be problematic (for the non-heavily-initiated).

If you subscribe to the overriding effect, then they most likely can't cast at all, or will suffer very deadly drain. Even with the "Let it add" ideas, a character would have to have magic maxed, and initiated 3 times (while increasing magic) in order to cast in an absolute Mana void of 12 (which is what I would rule most space areas to be), and would get +8 to the drain of any spell.

It's not broken, I think, in the last two areas for sure, and in the first only if they are abusing it in a space-focused campaign. Such is the nature of space in Shadowrun, not exactly common.

Rubic, it's BC, and follows the rules for BC. AFAIK, that means incoming spells are affected. Perhaps not. I'm not going to assume that the majority of experienced players I've seen talking about it here are wrong, though.

I just re-read the section myself, and even though I could have an old PDF that has been corrected, it does indeed not mention incoming spells.

if Astral Hazing really does override the mana void of space, then every corp would be scrambling to hire, at high cost, a "magical escort" for their prized magical employees during sub-orbital, orbital, and Eden flights. "So, you can feel itchy for a few hours, or you can have a severe burning sensation all over your skin while your mental faculties implode and fade. Otherwise, it'll be 2 more hours travel time and a near-certainty your luggage will be sent to Cambodia by way of Madagascar. Either way, enjoy your flight to Paris."

This. Astral Hazing creates an area of background count, and therefore follows ALL of the rules for background counts, which means a stunbolt cast into it gets reduced in force.

Back up a second. Provide a rules reference please.

When I wrote the Fourth Edition background count rules, they would not modify spells cast into the area of background count. Unless the spell is sustained, anchored, or quickened because those spells are maintained by a constant framework of mana. Instantaneous spells are formed of mana where they are cast and if the mana where they are cast is sufficient, they will be fine. They don't stick around long enough to be fizzled or warped by the background count. That may have been changed by errata since, I'm just not aware of it.

Not sure why it's so hard to find errata on CGL's site, but this is the most recent Street Magic errata I could locate.

Exactly and (at the GM's discretion) the area of BC expands every few hours, if the Hazer stays in the same place. One full immersion tank and the hazer will be a very small part of the cost of a space station.

Demonseed Elite already addressed this, but I'll point out, I quoted rules and gave page numbers in the book. Where's the rules backing up YOUR stance on this?

Granted, Astral Hazing is a good negative quality for a mage-hunter, but not an end-all to magic resistance.

Edit: re: Mythbusters, they did confirm an 8-ft direct penetration capacity for smaller caliber firearms, though at a 25-30 degree angle, a penetration depth of approx. 3 feet for a 50-cal sniper rifle. This does not mean a sniper rifle can't penetrate 3 feet of water. It means it can only go down 3 feet at a 25-30 degree angle. I'll let the math and physics majors do the math out for that triangulation.

Except that magicians are fine in space if they stay away from Magic and the astral. Likewise they can be quite comfortable in the presence of a Hazing character if they keep to all things mundane.

On reflection I wonder just how valuable they are to space projects really. Is there any point to magical research in space if it's not about being in a mana void?

The problem is the text about the effects of Background Count does not address what happens if a non-sustained spell travels into or out of BGC.
If you read it RAW the astral hazer or anyone standing in the BGC can be affected normally by Permanent and Instantaneous Spells, but Sustained Spells cast from outside the hazed area have their Force reduced by 4. I doubt this is the intention of the rule.

Demonseed Elite wrote the rule. Read above for what s/he has to say about it. It goes with what has been pointed out by myself, and by others around the forums. Astral Hazing is not Magic Armor. It dampens continuous effects inside of it's area of influence (things that require a sustained mana-based framework), but does not dampen any sudden burst of mana shooting inside of it (like a power bolt or mana bolt). Instantaneous effects cast from outside of the sphere do not exist long enough within the mana field to be dampened before they create their effect and dissipate on their own.

This means fuck the rating 12 background count, stand outside, cast direct combat spells into it as if it did not exist?

Control Manipulations are even weirder. Influence just goes through a Mana Void/Surge like a hot knife through butter, but Control Thoughts below Force 13 simply fizzles.

If you have the luxury of standing outside an area of background count and using "clean" mana to form your direct combat spells, absolutely, you should be doing that. One does not always have that luxury, though.

There are a few weird spells, yes. Those spells tend to be weird by nature of the system. Influence creates a permanent post-hypnotic suggestion. Once placed, it can't be removed by any magical or counter-magical efforts. Yet the caster can remove it any time. How does that work? I have no idea. It's a weird spell.

Many Permanent spells are touch-range, meaning you're going to be subject to the background count anyway. The few Permanent, Line-of-Sight ranged spells are interesting cases and I could make a case for them being subject to background count if the target is within it.

Another facet of this is the idea of "astral mechanics." The Astral Plane doesn't follow physical laws, it follows its own laws. For an instantaneous spell to be altered by background count, you need to assume that an instantaneous spell "travels" through an area of background count. There was discussion about this back when Street Magic was being written and I posited that instantaneous spells do not travel. The mana is gathered and shaped at the caster, a link is formed to the target, and the effect instantaneously occurs at the link. This is why there is no travel time based on range. It is also why there is no travel time when using a material, sympathetic or symbolic link to cast ritual magic regardless of how far away the target is. The spell does not travel along the intervening space. This is an odd concept if you think about physical space and physical laws, but it's normal behavior in Astral Space, where spirits can take metaplanar shortcuts to cross immense physical distances.

Mana barriers alter the ability to form the links, which is why they have an effect on spells targeting someone on the other side. This is also why mana barriers impede astral tracking, because the link itself is impeded even if no spell has been cast. Background count, though, is a function of availability and quality of mana and nothing more. If you're not using that mana, you're unaffected. Note that background count has no effect on ritual magic unless the ritual casters are casting within the background count. That's because the manipulation of mana is happening at the casters themselves, not at the target on the other side of the link.

Really? So I can fireball the moon at my whim.

Good to know.