Btw regarding OR 3 (Sensors) vs OR 5 (Drones). You have to fool the drones sensors, not the drone to appear invisible for it. IF you want to cast invisibility on the drone it would be OR 5. That's the consensus most often found. Besides that it's still a hot topic at most tables.

Rotodrones have either hardened armor 9 or 12, so F5 or F6 with Elemental Aura (other than electricity) should do the trick.

@Elfenlied
You are doing stun damage as melee fighter...

Only if the element is stun damage. Certain elements are always physical damage.

Also a melee attack isn't necessarily an unarmed attack. In SR all close combat is called melee. So you could make a flaming attack with your nodachi.

@Dakka Dakka
The one of a spirit is, unless natural weapon power.

@Elfenlied

I do not recall any.

Spirits can wield weapons (melee and ranged), especially guardian spirits.

Ice Sheet does not work so well for those Drones that Fly...
Besides, any competent Rigger will always make his Crash Tests. So they are generally a waste of time on your part to try an inflict them.
Spirits using Accident are generally a better Option, due to the Negative to the Dice pool that is inflicted.

Ummmmm... Rotodrones have an Armor of 2... You should really look at the Rotodrone's Stats...

I guess he is assuming the worst case - drones with maximized armor. the LEBD is BOD 3 so maximum 9 armor, the Dalmatian with BOD 4 can have 12 armor.

Yeah, by Rotodrones I meant the LEBD and the Nimrod.

And yet, none of those have that high of an armor unless you mod them that way. These mods are not a given, due to the low Body ratings involved. Why would you spend money on a Drone that is designed to be replaceable (Well, admittedly, the Nimrod isn't, but it is not a Rotodrone either). It often costs as much money for the amor as the Drone is worth. There are so many more options than just armor.

But no worries. Just remember, APDS or AV rounds are your friend when it comes to vehicles.

@Dakka Dakka
The question is, if it applys. It is quite questionable if the damage code of the elemental section overrides the original ones.
Lightning would always be stun damage, but there is the lightning spell having physical damage.

@Tymeaus: It's mostly out of habit, I guess. Every rigger I've played with or against, be they NPCs or PCs, always maximized all armor on their combat drones, to fully utilize hardened armor. Then again, armor is cheap, and if it helps to keep your drone and its attached weapon alive, why not?

Understood. It does help with survivability, to be sure. But with a Limited number of slots to mod Drones with, Armor is often the last thing that I think of. Drones are so cheap that they are easy to replace (Unless they are a Nimrod Drone). Hardening them a little tends to not help all that much. As I said, AV or APDS rounds make mincemeat of almost any drone out there. Not to mention any Spells that deal with them easily enough.

Of course, My philosophy on Drone usage may be a factor here. Rarely do I utilize Combat Drones with Weapons. These are the last resort. Information is much more of a commodity on a battlefield, and most of the drones my character uses are geared for information acquisition. I only field a few actual combat drones. Think I have a few Predators (Anti-Air Assets), a Few Rotodrones (Anti-Personnel), and a Tower with a load of Heimdals (Anti-Vehicle Assets). The other 50 or so drones are various versions of Elint-Capable Drones.

Also, it's cheaper and easier for a corp to write off the drone as an expense and send in another. The listing in the book is what you're paying after mark-ups. The corps who build them spend less, and build them en mass. I'd even posit that modding more than a handful of specialty drones would be more costly to the corp (resources and manpower) than just building a fleet of them to put on racks until needed. If they REALLY wanted that rotodrone with obscene amounts of armor all of the time, then they'd simply make a line with that armor as a standard load-out, PLUS modification slots.

Well the Lone Star Strato-9 might only cost 3,5k and as such be easy to replace.
But the 11k medium gatling gun or 20k Fleche Hail Barrage Rocket Launcher its armed with, not so much

The information-gathering drones are often the ones easily replaced due to their small size, deploying a bunch of medium drones is not that easy. The price of unavailable replacements does not really matter.

Rotordrones are my heavy-duty combat drones, and armoring them to the max makes them immune to most small arms fire. It is the first thing I do to those. Improved Sensor Array is also a must.

I took a look at some of the illusion spells in sm, and couldn't flak or chaff handle the sensors? And then an indirect combat spell of choice i guess, but indirect targeting allows for a dodge roll. Is it likely the op would even hit?

I don't see any amendments to this in the errata.

Rock<Paper<Scissors
Sam<Mage<Rigger

Physical vs Mana spells. Learn the difference.

Wow, a physical spell that effects physical light? What will they think of next?
Just be satisfied with the fact that improved invisibility will foil most technological vision enhancements.

Unless you were agreeing with Longbow in a strangely belligerent way, I don't understand what you were trying to say. Learning the difference between physical and mana spells (in this case illusions, see p. 208 SR4A) precisely backs up Longbow. Invisibility = mana spell = affects the mind/senses directly; Improved Invisibility = physical spell = creates actual images or alters physical properties such as light or sound.

I know some folks here detest the spell from what I have read, but what about Ignite? Is the threshold too steep?

I don't think Ignite would be a great option in most combat situations, due to the OR threshold, combined with the delay while you make the spell permanent.

Only a combat butler would wish to ignite drones.

Would the possibility of setting off drone ordinance make it any better?

Ignite is great when you can prepare for it. It is also awesome to use as a distraction/trap, as things can be set to blow up after you have passed them...

I actually used Ignite in a game, but it was Spell Designed with the Gm's permission
Basically it had the Hot Potato (street magic) effect incorporated into the spell for increased drain. I think it worked out to f/2+1, working with both spells as the starting base.
Basically, something actually got really hot(instead of illusionarily hot), and THEN exploded into flames.
It actually worked out rather well, because I also had Control Element: Fire. Its a good way to ramp up the damage, IF your mage doesn't get geeked for a few Combat Turns. Also good because its an area spell, and you can use it on other sources of fire - such as the ones your Fire elementals cause. I was going for a pyromancer theme.

The main purpose of ignite, really, ISNT in combat. Its to burn anything you want GONE within a few seconds.

Yep, anything will burn if it gets hot enough, and that is Ignite's primary function...

I thought that's what a den of feral ghouls was for...

We had a mage use it to get through the lockdown-doors. Had to survive the firefight while the Ignite warmed up. I think it's a cool spell.

I could also see an Elemental Manipulation that created a heavy fog or mist, obscuring your visibility to the drones.

Or a spirit to use Concealment on you. A mid to high end spirit (Force 3-6) will help you avoid being seen / detected by a drone to a significant degree.

If I'm a mage being attacked by drones, my first thought is to ensure I survive the initial engagement and then concern myself with fighting back.

Like the Shadow or the Mist spell?

[Element] Wall impedes visibility completely, unless you happen to know Air Wall
I don't know, how Electricity Wall would look like, but I guess no Rigger wants to find out its Force by flying through it. High drain though -.-

Yup. The OR mechanic makes the spell pretty weird though. It is easier to have a rock (OR 1) burst into flames than gasoline (OR 2). It's Magic.

BTW how quickly does ignite consume an inanimate object?

That makes a lot of sense. Trid Phantasm sounds like it might be good for that purpose.

I generally believe in a survive first, then win philosophy also. And I like Trid Phantasm. I think the op mentioned that the drones were using radar.

Does Trid Phantasm work against radar though? I checked <sr4a208> and I suppose OR of 3 to affect sensors...

Does Trid Phantasm, as multi-sense, include touch? If so, it seems like it would fool radar. If not, no idea.

Uh.
Yes, multi-sense includes touch.

Then it stands to reason that a physical (non-mana) spell simulating enough substance to fool touch would also fool radar as it should have enough substance to reflect radar. It also stands to reason that it would fool any echolocation sensors if the same logic applies. Of course I am applying some semblance of real-world physics to a system that may "just work" or "just not work" that way depending on a game master's ruling.

I always assumed it means it stimulates the touch receptors, not actually creating a physical manifestation. Hence why its a illusion.

Illusions aren't illusions in the D&D sense.

The steriotypical 'mind effecting' illusions are the Mana Spell Type illusions, while Physical illusions, yes, DO create real sensations and things to interact with. Which is why Special Effects mages are so desirable in hollywood/simsense productions.

But yeah. Basically, everyone in this thread needs to open up their core rule books, and look at the description of illusion spells. So much confusion and making sense of a spell would be saved if people bothered to READ the relevant stuff instead of spouting off their version of 'i think it works, or should work this way'.

Specificlally Mana Illusions(208), Physical Illusions(208), Obvious Illusions and Realistic Illusions(also on 208), Single-Sense and Multisense(208 AGAIN.)

Supplementing this is street magic 103: Spell Design.
The above keywords - Obvious, Realistic, Multisense, Single-sense - can be applied to any given spell for an adjustment in the drain code.

This is the reason I suggested that, pages ago, people Spell Design their Improved Invisibility to Multi-Sense from Single-sense. Doing so makes it significantly better, and basically removes any need for stealth spells relating to sound. Or radar. Or other sensors. Because physical illusions spells specifically work against technology.
On the flipside, because its a Mana illusion, Regular Invisibility works on the astral. Against spirits.

Except that's awful. Make the mages even more unstoppable… except by other mages.

It doesn't work on astral, because it's not 'vision' on astral.

A mage *MIGHT* be able to see a much-loved and restored '39 Ford Coupe in Astral... But certainly not a freshly made drone.

100% doesn't work on the astral. The spell is highly visible on the astral (1 hit on an assensing test).

Now, there are those who propose an *astral sense* version of it. I still don't think that works, but at least it'd be the correct sense.

It's called Concealment.

Not specifically true.

The AURA is visible. Specifically, the spell is visible, not its target.

If you have a means to cloak the spells aura - such as Extended Masking - then you're golden.


And yeah, astral perception is definitely a Sense in rules terms, given that it can be borrowed with Borrow Sense, and similar related spells, like passenger.

"That's odd. There's an Invisibility spell over there. I wonder what I can't see. Eh"
*Hits the area with Force 6 Fireball*