Since AR is generated by all the nodes in range your com will only be getting AR from specific pre-authorized nodes, greatly reducing your experience. That said a comlink in hidden mode, and the user by extension, is completely unaware of AR in the area.

Thoughts?

Sounds right. But also keep in mind, many of those areas with lotsof AR spam require you to have your Commlink appearing active at all times. Passive mode is like a transmitting sleep mode. You are still on, and if you try to access things, it'll switch to active mode again. At least, that is my interpretation.

Depends on what you mean by AR. Incoming AR information from unknown, yes, would be unavailable. However, that's just crap that Facebook profiles and virtual storefronts. You still have the 'Google Goggles'-style AR (3rd party Matrix info on what you see), maps, TacNet, translation, weather/temp/compass, email/chat/video, etc. … All the useful stuff.

That's pretty much what I mean: AR not generated by a trusted node is not available. For example, in hidden mode you have access neither to service provider towers, nor the mesh network (though you could probably access a tacnet or team net)... so you have no matrix connection.

In passive mode, your access to AR is only from trusted nodes so the store fronts, city notices, restaurant menu, club AR, etc are all unavailable until.. All "anonymous" connections are rejected. Most of this AR is generated by just that, anonymous connections.

So you do not get "Google" in hidden and only if you are in mutual signal range of a provider tower or some other trusted relay when in passive mode.

Yes, I'm assuming you have access to an MSP 'main tower' or something (via some simple repeater trickery, etc.). I'm also assuming the menus and things are worthless.

Way I've always handled it:
When your node A is running passively in Seattle
And your brother's node Z is in Hong Kong
His call isn't coming from node B through X that serve as repeaters of his traffic, it's coming from him. And since he's trusted, you're getting his call.

If it's AR experience you're worried about, you can set the mall node(s) or the node of the bar you're in as a trusted source without a hitch. Yes, you're missing all the Facebook spamming, and NERPS ads, but that's what you're running passively for. Or just maybe, missing out on the NERPS ads is a sacrifice you have to make to lose all the rest too.

But that's just it... it is coming from those that last point router and if you are not accepting connections from that last point router you can't get the call.

Honestly that defies any kind of sense. If your in passive mode your not talking to the matrix how would the matrix know where to connect your call.

That's not right. The call is originating from a permitted node (determined by access ID) and the nodes between are just forwarding the communication without interfering. Your link can tell the difference between a permitted call being relayed by a non-permitted node and a communication from the non-permitted node itself. Otherwise you're saying you would need to be in mutual signal range with that call from Hong Kong and for almost all privately-owned hardware that would never be the case.

If you have no Matrix connection, you are offline, not hidden.

Bye
Thanee

This is also not the case. Being in hidden mode makes your PAN invisible to other nodes, not the other way around. You are still aware of other nodes (so long as they themselves are not hidden) and can authorise them. So if you walk past a shop with some clever AR advertising and you're in hidden mode, you will not be disturbed or even alerted to the communication on offer, but there's nothing to stop you consciously checking that there is a broadcasting node and then authorising it if you're curious.

The only real difference between passive and hidden modes are that with the former other nodes (more pertinently, the users of other nodes) know your PAN is there and with the latter they don't. With either mode, if they aren't authorised they aren't getting through.

None of the modes affects your Matrix connection. You can still connect with any other node you fancy and your communication will be routed as and when necessary, though in doing so you do compromise the invisibility of hidden mode with respect to the node you're connecting to (but not to any routing nodes).

That's like saying running AdBlock Plus and a decent popup blocker will greatly reduce your internet experience.

Passive allows you to run the AR applications you want, and only those. Active allows any RFID spam node to access your link and, well, spam you. Hidden is one more paranoid step and amounts to cookie-free, script blocking, porn surf mode internet. Still good for things but indeed a bit no-frills.

Routed signals have to work as if the trusted node sends them, in this scenario, for the entire WiFi Matrix to work.

Indeed, there really is no other option.

No, I'm saying you must trust the next upstream routing node. In Active this is all nodes, in passive this is implicit trust and in hidden this is none.


You are confusing your com being in hidden mode with not being on the matrix. These are two separate things. A modern day equivalent is not broadcasting your SSID in 802.11 networking. You can still communicate with a trusted node, just not be seen except by someone sniffing wireless traffic and determining the SSID's of that traffic.

I disagree. When you are in hidden mode no route can be generated to your com... and if I can generate a route to your com then you are not hidden. Hidden mode ONLY works in mutual signal range or its simply not hidden.

No its not, please see my notes above.

Exactly, but more precisely only AR from nodes you have authorized and until you authorize them, you are not aware of the AR they generate.

IF a trusted node routes them to you.

Of course, one may also spoof signals to fake coming from that brother in Hong Kong, but that's your problem.
How does the Matrix know where you are? It doesn't, but your MSP most likely will. They'll most likely be a trusted source, since the comcode system doesn't know where you are, otherwise, and you indeed won't be able to receive any calls. As it stands though, regularly checking in with your nearest MSP tower should be a standard procedure, just like it is for your cellphone.

Now continuing the hidden mode routing trickery conversation: If I set up, say a repeater drone and set it to spoof my ID and it was in active or passive (and connected to a trusted upstream either in active and on the mesh or a provider tower) and my com is hidden and in mutual signal range of said repeater then I have a matrix connection option.

Example: I am inside a corp facility and my repeater is outside and there is nothing blocking the wifi between the two, then I could feasibly get a matrix signal, send and receive calls, etc. I could see any of the AR inside the building though. In order to properly pull off this job, I need my hacker to put me on the corporate network with an active com that appears like it belongs. Now I can see and interact with the AR which will surely be present.

I agree with one caveat: When you disappear (hidden mode), your MSP will assume you've either gone offline or out of range.

Nonsense. A data signal gets a nice little identifier tagging it as comming from "Access ID X", which it keeps throughout its path to the receiver. As long as X is trusted, it doesn't matter wether or not Y and Z are middlemen passing the message on, since they don't alter the data.

If this wouldn't be the case, a) people couldn't Analyze your Access ID, and b) the entire concept of Access ID would be useless, as would the entire Matrix, as no one would ever be able to find your device on the 'way back'.

I agree, what you propose is nonsense. If you don't trust a connection from a potential router, you are not going to accept a connection from it even it is says "but I've got a message from your brother in Hong Kong...."

Also, you can't trust that the data isn't getting altered. Encryption will *mostly* solve that, but in Shadowrun, encryption is broken to allow such things to occur (ergo: this is by design for game flavor)

In Hidden mode you're right, there is no route back, which is why mutual signal range is required.
In Passive mode, the route is dynamic taking the last hop through a trusted node.

While I think the 'dedicated' repeater method is perfectly viable, it's also my understanding that the automagic mesh routing 'just works'. It's totally illogical and insecure, but somehow it just works, safely, and without anyone thinking about it. Yay SR.

You got your reality in my fantasy!

You're confusing how networking works in Real Life with how it is specifically stated to work in the wireless Matrix. All matrix nodes act as ad-hoc routers, passing traffic along to everything in range, this is not the same thing as connecting to those nodes. In Reality, you are trusting the relay node not to muck with your packets. In the Matrix, the transmission protocol prevents relay nodes from mucking with the traffic going through them. It is not explained how this works, it is simply stated whole-cloth as RAW.

All rules are interpretable at all tables. For some of my players this is way too much detail. For my players who used to play Star Fleet battles and like to be really down in the weeds, this is the level they like.

While I respect your right to interpret it as you may and run your table as you like, that is NOT RAW.


RAW actually supports the definitions I provided above.

*Shakes Head* Star Fleet Battles... Condolences.







That being said. I like Star Fleet Battles. Unfortunately, I have not been able to actually find a game for years upon years.

The fact that it takes 3+ hours for a frigate or smaller class battle using the original rules makes it too much of a time sync for me these days. I found my books in a crate in the basement the other day. They are still in that crate.

First of all, it's your commlink, you do what you want with it. If you want to accept messages from trusted senders only, that's fine, and if you want to accept messages from a trusted route only, that's fine too. The only problem is what you decide to call "Passive mode". The difference is the same as between a private network and a VPN.

And I am not sure that you cannot route messages in Hidden mode: nothing says that a routing node must attach any kind of ID, and it's better for the network to allow anonymous routing.

I agree with Redjack's interprtation. Do I agree it overcomplicates things for most people? Certainly but if you ahve players interested in the matrix side, infosec, and opsec it can be a rewarding system to explore. The biggest thing is consistency. But if GM's just allow players to say "I turn myself to passive mode, durhur i'm unhackable." there's huge issues there.

On the whole I tend to presume that my PC's who are tech savy (that is have points in computers and cracking groups and applicable knowledge skills) are taking reasonable precautions and I make them aware of certain risks and downsides that their characters would be aware of but the player might not make the connection.

Are you sure a route has to be generated? Since 99% of the antennas are omnidirectional, one can see the network using basic flooding instead. Then a message can be routed to a hidden node because the last repeater does not have to know it is in mutual signal range of the hidden receiver to send the message.

Yeah, I break out my books every once in a while to reminisce over the campaign I played for awhile. But have not played seriously in over a decade. I think that I played a total 2 pickup games in that time, and that was 4 years ago or so.

When you go quoting RAW (Even though that bit you quoted would be considered fluff by most), and nitpicking like that, you might want to read up on Passive mode again as well:

You'll also note:

*shrug*
Do with it as you will, though.

By routing, I'm really making a reference to how routing protocols work. Also, a 'message' or 'a call' is not sent in one lump sum, rather it is transmitted in a series of packets. Transport protocols would need a response from the receiving com if for nothing else to insure a seamless transition to another MSP or routing node on the mesh.

Dude, did you even read what I wrote? I never inferred that a passive mode com could not be seen, just not accessed (by extension used as a router, etc) with explicit access being granted. Nothing I have alluded to contradicts the RAW for passive mode. In fact, you just reinforced my commentary above.

A routing node is not accessing anything, it's merely passing on data it received from another node. Your 'link will be popping up a 'your brother in Hong Kong is asking for access.' Not 'the CCTV camera on that wall over there is asking for access.'

And indeed, a passive node can't be used as a router itself. (as noted on Unwired pg 54: "Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless
node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode.")

Flooding can send the ack message too. Or any combination of lightning-like transmission: flooding until a reliable route has been found, then direct transmission through this route. Current routing protocols are not necessarilly relevent to a P2P wireless network where 99% of the nodes can only broadcast at the hardware level.

See... I go with the idea that any comlink routes communications automatically if it is in Active or Passive Mode, because it is automatically detected and seen. Whether a Hidden Com automatically routes the Mesh is another discussion entirely. Routing and accessing are not the same thing. If you get too involved in the minutia of reality vs. game mechanics, evereything will just bog down.

EDIT: Mardrax just nullified my Pasive routing argument with a quote from Unwired... Oh well...

Let me just add:

Which hearkens back to:

And TJs post above.

I win! Though, again, there's nothing wrong with the player who wants to use their own repeaters. It's cool, RAW, and classy. While I wouldn't call Redjack's house rule an 'interpretation', it's not a bad one if that's what the players want.

This is bullcrap. Not on the technical level, but on the consequences it should have on the setting. Where is the dystopia if the corps allow every John Doe to switch off his router at will? The matrix belongs to the corps, not its users. If this is the way the authors wanted it, they should have made Passive or Hidden mode illegal and only accessible through a proper Hacking program or hardware unlocking.

There are plenty of areas where not having your link in Active mode is a crime, and there are cameras on every light post and doorstep scanning the crowd for people without SIN AROs over their heads. The whole world doesn't work like that yet because it's a little expensive to enforce.

Traul, there's tons in the setting that is illogical, broken, etc. *shrug*

This quote is not in sr4a. Where is this from, because it contradicts the quote below...

Perhaps not so fast...

As noted, there are places where Passive and Hidden mode are illegal.

Those places are lame, of course. If you're walking around in a controlled TI'd area, you hardly care about AROs… because they're already tracking your exact location and you're about to be arrested.

It's simple: we know that Hidden mode works. We know that you can be on the mesh in Hidden mode. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist. If you want it grittier, require SR3-style repeater routes, but it's not RAW.

Yes, but this is only for security reasons.

The quote in Unwired means that when you switch to Passive or Hidden, you damage the Matrix itself. So there is no reason for the corps to sell commlinks that can do it and to allow it in the commlink user licence agreement (and user licence agreements take a whole new meaning when the corp runs its own private police...)

Sure. Just like hot sim, they could add a trivial hacking test speed bump. Or not. Whatever.

The books really hammer on the idea of having one comm Active, and one Hidden. So the Hidden one can just leech off the Active, anyway.

It could be my imagination but I'm pretty sure there's some refrence to needing a stealth program to run in Hidden Mode, which is a restricted9(forbidden? I'm AFB) hacking program so.

Your imagination it is - hidden mode is a hardware setting available to all devices on the machine level. Stealth is about making your digital activities 'blend in' with background processes, which is a purely software issue.

That's a fair assertion, but doesn't ring true for me. The corps really don't own the Matrix any more and it's a significant change to the ways of old. They theoretically could refuse to manufacture links without passive/hidden ability, but I can see legal and economic reasons precluding it. Even the rich and powerful need their privacy so it would only take one corp to offer it to force the others to follow suit. Also, bear in mind that zones set to enforce active mode do so for security and crime prevention, not to impose advertising. But then maybe that's just the spin ...

I'm pretty sure it's somewhere, perhaps it's in unwired, i'll go looking for it later. I do like it better this way, makes a certain amount of sense.

Oh sorry, I forgot to include a page reference there. It's on SR4A pg 218.

Seems like I didn't forget, but the forum is messing up with my quoting. 0_o Anyway, reference added for your convenience.

Thanks! I was looking on 223. I now see the 223 reference was part of the quote.

I like the rule fix in Unwired, though I can understand how this makes for a simpler game.