The player can presumably be trusted to decide if his character knows who the VP is. This falls outside the things that dice and crunch are needed for.

That presumes a lot.

Additionally, the whole point of knowledge skills is that they might give useful information. There are many "common knowledge" things that might be useful to know, but may or may not fall within the grasp of a knowledge skill. If you need to escape from your home in the Barrens because a go-gang is after you, knowing the shortest route is valuable information. You should know your own neighborhood, even at a Logic of 1; and it seems very unfair to demand that everyone take Area Knowledge: My Home as a skill. Somebody should be able to default to common knowledge skills, without facing a penalty.

No. By MY rules, If it is generally accepted Common Knowledge (Players have input) then no role is required.

This presumes that you have an indelible memory for nooks, crannies, alleyways, and whatnot. In this case, I would have you roll an active skill to escape, not a Knowledge skill. It is likely going to be opposed. After all, the gang probably has the same advantages you do if they live there as well.

So, it's either no roll is required, or no roll is permitted? That's GM fiat.


That's even worse. Knowledge skills are "free" to a limited extent, and I encourage my players to take fluff skills with them. If I required "common knowledge" knowledge skills, they'd be less likely to have interesting character-based fluff skills. Requiring active skills to find their way through their own backyard is just cruel and unusual punishment. Somebody with Logic of 1 should be able to get out of his own neighborhood efficiently, with or without an appropriate skill, active or otherwise.

My "special needs" player rides his bike here. Now, he could be considered to have a Logic of 1, and no area knowledge skills, because he doesn't know the bike paths that well. He's only had a bike for a month, after all. He's always made it here early, despite that. He doesn't have an "indelible memory for nooks and crannies", but he can use common knowledge and get here.

And you are making absolutley no sense. If it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE, it is Common, and therefore needs no roll.
If it is NOT Common Knowledge, then it is represented by either a Knowledge Skill, or a Default roll. As for GM fiating a roll is impossible. I have never said that. You can always roll, sometimes it just takes other things to allow that roll. Like Edge, or Equipment, or, you know, actual Knowledge. Of course, if it is not all that important to the story, why are you rolling dice anyways. If it IS important to the Story, Why can they not make the roll? You wouild think that if it was important, they would have taken steps to allow the roll in the forst place. So...

You do not need an Active Skill to find your way through your own backyard. But I do not consider a NEIGHBORHOOD to be a backyard. As for finding your way out of your neighborhood, I have seen people get lost in their own neighborhood. So, yes, Defaulting represents this very well, or you get an Area Knowledge Skill (City of Operation), or, you know, get a MAP/GPS System. Not sure why you are having such an issue with this. As for my example, I would use your Stealth vs. Perception if on Foot, or Vehicle vs. Perception/Shadowing for vehicles. The fact that you do not have an Area Knowledge Skill is irrelevant to the situation. You will either lose them or you will not. THAT is what is important.

As for yuour Guy. Your guy either obviously knows the Bike Paths well enough that a skill check is NOT required, or he has an Area Knowledge Skill: City Bike Paths. I think the difference between you and I is that I do not try to assign game world stats to a real person to try and make my points.

Also, how you allow people to pick their Knowledge Skills has absolutley no bearing on how Interesting they (the characters) become. If a character wants to take a Knowledge SKill that has little to no use, that is his perogative, and I heavily support that. Hell, I even do it myself. I often have many more FLUFF Knowledge SKills, because the character SHOULD have such Knowledge Skills for the concept. Does not make the character any more interesting for the other players (most of the time), but they are there for my own edification.

It seems like you're arguing against yourself, Cain. I'm not saying make someone default on something their character should reasonably know. I'm saying no roll is required. All your 'Logic 1 player' examples are nonsense, because he shouldn't have to make a roll in the first place. Or, in the case of *finding* the bathroom, the person looks for it. They don't rack their brains to remember where it is, they *find* it.

I hardly think GM fiat means asking the playing if their character knows a piece of common knowledge. If it's uncommon enough to make a Test, then it's uncommon enough for them to fail.

Just make it a Memory roll. WIL+LOG. Problem solved (although I think INT+LOG would make a better memory stat, but that's another story).

There are even tales of people *asking* for it, but I think it's just one more urban legend.

Wow... Surely that is an Urban Legend of the greatest exaggeration....

My personal opinion on how this is looking: Neither of you is going to back down, and are just arguing in circles.

My personal opinion on how to handle finding a bathroom, or their way around a neighbourhood, especially through means they don't tavel often: This would be a Navigation test, with applicable knowledge possibly providing a bonus. Or Intuition-1. If he uses his commlink map, +2. If he has an actual mapsoft, add it's rating to his test.

Indeed...

Memory Tests are WIL + LOG? I never noticed (not in a world where literally everything is always recorded). You're right, that's just weird.

Common knowledge: who is the vice president of the United States? Who's the head of the Senate?

These are all pieces of common knowledge "everyone should know", but most people can't answer.

As far as my player goes, you don't know him, and we joke about the unreality of putting our stats in SR4.5 terms all the times. It's a running gag at my table. We joke a lot-- you do know how that works, right? I think the difference between you and I is that I can laugh at myself, instead of having everyone else do it for me.


That's exactly the point: if it's uncommon enough for them to fail, it's also means there's a chance they can succeed. Even a Logic 1 troll should be able to make a roll to see who the vice-president of the UCAS is. Under TJ's defaulting rules, he can't even do that.

I'm not convinced that's true. If they have Logic 1 and zero skill, they probably deserve to auto-fail (sans Edge) on something that's uncommon enough not to *be* common knowledge (which I earlier defined as 'not needing a Test'). There's a chance *someone* could succeed, but that doesn't mean there has to be a chance for 'Mr. 1-0'.

Agility 1 Pistol 0 has no hope of shooting someone across the room, and I'm fine with that. It's not that I don't see your position, and both of our positions are personal, subjective ones (though one is RAW, whatever little that's worth). You could use some kind of house rule for fractional dice, I guess: 1–0 = hit on 6 only? I forgot what rule you suggested earlier.

I know I focused a bit on your examples earlier (and not wrongly), but I understand that they're merely examples. Your position is roughly that things shouldn't be totally impossible for a player's character in an RPG, because that's not fun. I just think that the 'requires test/doesn't require test' categories, and the option of Edge, adequately address that.

Quickness 1, Pistols 0 can still hit someone from across the room, assuming he aims. Unfortunately, there's no such bonus for Knowledge skill checks.

Basically, for nonspecific knowledge, I use the Savage Worlds "Common Knowledge" rule, which is a straight Smarts test. In SR4.5, that's a straight Logic test, no default. Which is actually fair, if you think about it: let's say someone has to calculate mileage for a long trip. That's simple algebra, but there's consequences for screwing it up (running out of gas). Since no one takes Academic Knowledge: Algebra as a skill, it seems unfair to penalize everyone (regardless of Logic score) for something they should reasonably know. It's *most* unfair to the Logic 1 characters, since they can't do it at all; but other characters still take a penalty to do basic math.

At which point they are not Common Knowledge. But, you could always use that standard memory Test that has been talked about. You know, the one that represents what one might know?



You know, you really are not all that hilarious. Just because someone does not agree with you is no reason to start throwing around insults. My point was that, even if the Player that you refer to does indeed have that Logic 1, he obviously has more than just passing familiarity with the routes he uses on his transport vehicle. As such, he is either sporting a skill, has a good memory, or is not as Logic Imparied as you like to imply.



First, they are not MY defaulting Rules (Read the Book, you will see that), they are the Rules right there in the Book (let me see... yep, Attribute -1... wow). An Attribute 1 Character Cannot default to any skill based on that attribute with a net DP above 0 at that point (1-1=0) without other influences coming to bear. So, unless there are other bonuses, the character is out of luck. Oh Well, too bad for him. Guess he should not have had an Attribute of 1.

Why? Why would the character not just look it up, or ask someone who may know? Why must there be a rule to accommodate someone who CHOOSES to have a low attribute? If the Player CHOOSES such a thing, after being warned about it, he should indeed suffer the consequences of that choice. In this Case, no defaulting unless there are other bonuses that come into play, purchase of the actual skill, etc. I think you are punishing a player (in some ways) for making him roll those "Common Knowledge" Rolls in the first place, and then rewarding other players by removing the drawbacks of a low attribute so that they may now succeed where they would have failed previously. If it is UNCOMMON knowledge, WHY should he not fail if he can't make the roll? After all, it is Uncommon, and not everyone knows the answers.

Again, there are already rules in place to handle such things. You either don't need the roll (No Skill Required, it is common knowledge), You use a memory test (for things that you determine may be less than common, but still do not call for an actual skill), you Default (and spend Edge if you need to succeeed if you are reduced to no dice), You purchase a skill to cover your knowledge gaps, or you fail the roll because it was not all that important anyways. WHY do you need a new mechanic to accommodate those who are gaming the system anyways?

And I say that there is absolutely no reason to have the character roll that test to start with. Especially in Shadowrun. Who cares about basic math (Advanced Math is generally covered in the various active skills, so not a need for those either)? Do you have them roll a test to see if they can read basic native language? If not, Why Not? Same basic Principle here. How about basic writing? Do yo make your players roll Writing Skills to compose a letter, or a message to their contacts? Again, why not?

There is absolutely no need for such rolls in game. They add absolutely nothing to the game, at the expense of time involved resolving the roll.

Anyways...

Lets see... SR4A 148

If the character wants to try a test when he has no dice, make them use a Long Shot test. SR4A 61

I would, if they took the illiterate quality.

They should not be reading/writing at that point anyways, because they are.... ILLITERATE. But just because they cannot read does not mean that they cannot communicate. Dictation is easy, and is likely done very often in Shadowrun. There is absolutely no reason to even roll such nonsense for a character that cannot read. They cannot read. Big deal. I know people who cannot read, and they function failry well in today's society (as long as they are not required to actually read), let alone a society that has replaced most common personal interactions with icons and pictures.

Anyways...

Fair enough,. but there are times, when they may not be able to fully understand, but they get somewhere. That would be the test.

Why a test though? Understanding is not difficult, Reading/Writing is. Once you have the information (undserstanding) you just tell your transport to take you there. No need for the illiterate to do anything else.

Understanding is actually very easy in Shadowrun. There are translation programs out there for just that purpose, translating text to speech and vice versa.

Understanding how to do it cottectly. It`s wouldn`t be common, anyway, exceptionally rare, and situational, actually. Like if the guy didn`t have his commlink for whatever reason, but had to leave a message somewhere.

I can agree that in a pinch, where it is extremely rare, and highly situationally, it might require a roll.
Why is he without his comlink though?

My best guess, some NPC was smart, and decided he shouldn't be contacting his friends (by either shooting it away, or taking it off him before throwing him in a cell (or he escaped their grasp after being interrogated). Other then that, I don't see much reason, unless the GM is harsh with his AoE elemental damage.

Agreed. In the instance it becomes relevant, it is a Plot Point. Any other time, it is not relevant.

What you threw was an insult. Rather than insult back, I threw a joke. Yolk's on you, this time.

Anyways, the point is that the moment it becomes important, the character suddenly forgets how to find his way around his own backyard. That's just not right.


In the same post, you referenced a Memory test, after several pages of saying that RAW demands we use a defaulted knowledge test. So yes, in this case, it is *your* house rules that are under fire, because they don't work. Now, if you don't like RAW and prefer to use house rules, that's fine; but you can't defend them and attack them in the same breath without looking like a total hypocrite.

If the player is a rigger trying to calculate fuel for a trip? It matters, a lot. Some people like that level of bean-counting, although admittedly SR4.5 does it a lot less than others.

As far as rolling to read in their native language: when I was eight, I tested at above college reading level. I learned to read on my mom's ICD books. But the first time I picked up a reference book on mycology, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. So yeah, making someone roll to read a technical book seems fair: but everyone should have a chance to do it.

What the hell are you talking about. Defaulting works just fine... JUST NOT FOR YOU...
Memory Tests work fine for finding your way around your neighborhood, no skill required... JUST NOT FOR YOU.

Both of those rules are in the Book...
I can defend them just fine. And note... NO HOUSERULES...



No, it does not matter. It is not relevant to the game at all, UNLESS YOU MAKE IT SO, FOR NO REASON.



It has nothing to do with Reading a book, you could read it just fine, you just could not understand it. It has to do with not understanding the SUBJECT matter. THAT IS A KNOWLEDGE CHECK, not a Reading Check. And if you do not have the SKILL, you DEFAULT. AS the rules in the book already indicate.

Oh, and show me where the insult was in my previous Post... I looked. No insult I could find. If there is something in ther eyou find insulting, it was not intentional.

Unless you have a Logic of 1. Or in your case, when you use it instead of a memory check, which is what you were advising for most of this thread, until someone pointed out that by RAW, you can use a Memory check. Still not much help with a Willpower 1 troll, but it's better than a default.


I just finished Ghost Cartels, and one PC bought a cutter in Japan. It suddenly became important on how he was going to get it to Caracas, how long it'd take, and how much fuel was needed. So yeah, it is relevant.

Or you could make a Memory test, if no knowledge skill was applicable. But are you really saying that reading and understanding are two separate things? In that case, I can read ancient Egyptian; I just can't understand it.

OK:

It may not be a direct insult, but it is decidedly insulting. I won't insult you back, but I think you can see how that line deserves an apology at the very least.

A player having a Logic (or Willpower) of 1 is not my problem as a GM. It is his problem as a Player/Character. He chose to have such, he should suffer whatever consequences are generated.

As for my addition of a Memory Check. Forgot about it initially, but it is a perfectly reasonable application for things that "should be common knowledge." If it is so common, then you can argue that the character has been exposed to it at some point, and so a memory test will work to bring that information to recall. See, No Skill is required for such things... Why? Because apparently, they are COMMON KNOWLEDGE, as you keep insisting.



I disagree. Did it add anything to the game? Did it matter whether he had "enough" fuel, or had to refuel twice? Was it an important part of the campaign that he sat down to figure out how much fuel was needed? I would say probably not in any of these cases. It can be completley handwaved or narrated. But I will humor you. All you need to know is Distance (easily acquired, no skill needed), and time to traverse that distance (again, no sklll required, look up the speed of the boat, calculate per hour if needed), and how large your fuel tanks are (measured in hours of travel in SR4). So you have Fuel Capacity (Hours), Speed (Per Hour) and Distance (How Long it will Take Total). Easily solved and no roll required. But again, I will humor you. BAsic Math can be covered by a Memory Roll, and there is no way yuou can say that this is NO basic math. Or, you could just as the agent in the comlink to figure it out for you (A rating 1 Agent will suffice after all). My Question is this: WHY would you need a roll for such a paltry thing in the first place? Is it absolutely Crucial that you have the answer for the game to continue? Or, do you just say, "Yep, took a while to get there as you travel the seas and oceans. You refueled a few times." If the scenario requires a strict accounting of time, then you should probably not take a boat. If it does not, it is inconsequential to the story.



Again, you willfully misinterpret what I said, and you know it. The book you referenced and said you could not understand; It was in your Native Language, Yes? I can read a Text book on high level physics and read it with absolutely no issues whatsoever, it is written in English after all. That does not mean that I can UNDERSTAND it. Understanding takes a Skill. Application takes a Skill. Memory tests will not help me in this regard because I DO NOT HAVE THE SKILL.

You cannot READ Ancient Egyption IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE (Have the Skill). Some things will REQUIRE a Skill. An Illiterate individual CANNOT READ, even in their OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE. Your proposed solution is to allow a Defaulted roll with no penalty, ostensibly so that the Logic 1 Character has a Chance to succeed. I call BS on that Sentiment. If he wants to succeed, he needs to either buy the appropriate skill, raise the Logic Attribute to 2, so he can attempt to default, or Spend Edge.

Back to your example of escaping your neighborhood. I travel my neighborhood all the time, I can have either a really good skill (Not Necessary) or I could just access my Memory and use that. Why? Because I live there. My Memory will work just fine for that application of navigation around my own neighborhood. I would go one further in the game, though. I would not have you roll to "Know" the back alleys and cross streets. Why? Because YOU LIVE THERE. If it became absolutely crucial to MAKE you roll for something that arbitrary (makes no difference to the game in play, has no application), it would be a memory roll vs. a Skill roll, because there is no skill needed to live somewhere. You saying otherwise sounds a bit asinine.



I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about whatsoever. Point it out...
As I said earlier, I cannot control how you interpret things, and if you see it as insulting, that is really not my issue. But if you point it out, maybe we will be on the same page and have a basis to address what is being argued here.

Anyways...

Uh, it's Cain vs. Tymeaus Jalynsfein again. How... great. And interesting. Not. So stop it right now.

This.
So much so that I'm tempted to sig it.

I'm going to go back a bit, to a valid point made by someone other than TJ:


That's very close, but I also hail from the "Don't say no, let them roll" school of GMing. And telling them they can't accomplish something without arbitrarily spending valuable resources (like Edge) is IMO worse than telling them no-- it's telling them: "Maybe, if you jump through all my hoops first". It might be funny the first few times, but that sort of thing gets old quickly. I'll let people get away with a lot in my games,so long as it's fun; but that feels too much like player spanking to be fun for me. I'd rather put more of it into the hands of the players.

Oh yeah, fucking great.



Just a reminder.

I would think that Corporate Structure would be a spec for Corporate Politics.

You could definitely go that route. Knowledge Skills are highly mutable, after all.

Sure are:

Renraku corporate politics (16th floor)
Computer problems (friends and family)
Needed forms (TPS reports)

Assuming you want to spend those points in that way, I agree. Most would not, but I have seen stranger things in my time.
That said, I am a BIG believer in a ton of Knowledge Skills, both useful and flavorful.

Oh, I wouldn't. But there's nothing that says you can't do it.



Same. Even when I was building a BP strapped character (elf + drake) I spent about 2BP worth of points on flavorful items (cough, nexus) and had a couple flavor skills (one of which--Hacking*--actually came up).

*I was a mystic-adept! A mystic-adept I tell you! And I was still the only one who had any hacking skill (all of 1 point).

Like I said earlier, I'm a big proponent of fluff skills. My mage has several fashion skills, to supplant her part-time work as a magically-infused hairdresser. That's actually a handier one than many others, since it means any time we have to go into a high-class establishment, we know we'll be dressed appropriately. I've yet to see Farming come up as a useful knowledge skill, but it's fun if you want to show off a country background. I did use Knowledge: Country Music to pull a "Back to the Future" on someone; the otaku hacked his pocket secretary so it wouldn't play anything but bad country, and threatened to keep it up until his brain melted.

Why some hobby skills can come in handy.

That is clearly a language skill. : )

Unless all you can do is swear, badly.

Hey, I can swear badly in twelve different languages. It comes in handy, no matter where in the world you go, you'll find some way of pissing someone off.

Don't even need a foreign language for that.

*Speaking Slowly And Loudly* "Can. You. Understand. Me?"

"Yes, I can understand you very well."

"Oh, you speak American. Good. I keep getting these Canadians who I can't understand..."

*Headdesk*

Sounds like a Not Always Right.

Sorry Draco18s, I forgot, didn't tell the whole story. There were a number of call centres, one of which was in Texas and had really thick accents (Not all of them Texan-English, either, I might add. Although to be fair, they were one of the main Spanish Support Lines.). The Texas center called themselves "Canadians" at times to "Cover Up" those accents. (At least, that was the prevailing theory. Never proven.).

Languages as Knowledge Skills are damned useful, BTW. During "The San Diego-Batman Job" my group had to deal with Aztechnology-Subsidiary Security Force Policemen who didn't speak a word of English (And none of the group had taken Spanish). The officer in question (As it was a major tourist city, and they were actually hired for politeness and keeping the people happy) downloaded a free translation app and, well, my group just barely understood him.

Linguisofts are good, but there's nothing like knowing the language itself.

Awful.
Of course (The Customer is) Not Always Right can swing both ways. There are customer service people at some companies who are complete morons too.

Did I ever tell you guys about the time I was on tech support for my laptop and the tech was having me go through diagnostics, and rather than actually do them, I was walking on my way to class and simply telling him the results (as I'd already said numerous times "I've already done that"). The man never caught on, despite the fairly obvious street noises he should have been hearing.

Because people never bring laptops outside?

For every one tech support caller who knows what he's doing, how many do you think don't? The support guy can't take your word for it, he doesn't know your level of proficiency and he still needs to analyze and diagnose the issue himself.


I'm not a fan of Knowledge skills as they are. They seem too... vague or nebulous at times. It's a good system, adds depth to a character. But a normal person, let alone a runner, would know a lot more than the handfuls that you get.

I think there should be Knowledge Skill Groups (excluding languages).

Considering I started the call inside, packed up my stuff, went out the door, locked it, and walked down the street....

He never even once said "I can't hear you because of the wind."



I once called and said "I have some dead pixels. How many are required in order to get my screen replaced?" And instead of giving me a number or asking how many were dead (it was a quarter inch diameter circle, so on the order of, say, 150?) I had to go through several diagnostic tests to do I-don't-even-know-what as they didn't detect the pixels as being dead nor do anything to undead them (or even look like it was trying).

After 20 minutes the guy said, "looks like we'll have to ship you a new screen, the threshold on dead pixels for replacement is 12."

TWELVE. I had more than 12 dead pixels. WAY more.

As for knowing my level of proficiency I have called up and said "I have run these exact tests, in this exact manner, with these exact results and nothing has helped me solve my problem. I need this part replaced."

Also, despite having to enter my serial number into the phone-jail system, the tech always needs to ask for it (I've never understood why).